Anyone else underwhelmed by 'Chain of Command'.

[RAMA]

So this is like saying you've seen them fire guns in thousands of shows...and you're tired of it...but that's not going to stop them making shows where they fire guns.

I think the crew gave him credible examples why his methods were difficult..I recall where Geordi was telling Riker the practical explanation why Jellico's engineering requests were unreasonable. Also Starfleet isn't as fastidiously military as the 20th century navy. Its an exploration arm of the Federation, with secondary military function. Yes if there is a mission Jellico should expect the crew to react accordingly, but his methods grated on the crew, and crew morale is a totally valid element of military planning, jeopardize this and it could have been a long road ahead. Add to all of this the WAY command was transferred in such a rush, I think some trepidation amongst the crew when a proven commander is removed is also understandable.
RAMA

What? Thats nothing like saying Im sick of seeing guns being fired! Its a big part of the story, and an even bigger part of that character, to have it so by the book in its execution annoyed me, I felt the character was something out of 'Psychology for Dummies': Bully, made to feel helpless as a child, now takes it out on others. Snore.

Yes, Starfleet is not the same as he 20th century navy, but theres a reason why they carry phaser banks and photon torpedos. When you join Starfleet you have to accept that you might be called upon to perform in a military role. This isnt the navy, but it aint greenpeace either. Youve also got to respect the chain of command, thats part of joining Starfleet too. I mean come on, Riker disobeys the first order Jellico gives him. If I were Jellico Id be pretty annoyed about that, you cant have your go to guy disobeying orders, and then not even telling you about it. What if it had come out around the crew that Riker hadnt changed the rotations, instead of in front of Picard? Hows it going to help matters to see that your first officer doesnt agree with the new captain? Jellico would have had to either admit he was wrong, or admonish Riker, and both of those things would have been detrimental to his new command. Pretty unprofessional of Riker.

Youve also got to take into account the situation, Jellico said he didnt have time to baby the crew, and he didnt. The crew, on the other hand, knew that they were in a tense situation, and they still started screwing around. Not really the time, maybe?

And what did the crew want? Did they think Jellico would suddenly change his ways and declare he was going to be exactly like Picard now? Did they think that if they bitched about it enough Starfleet would send them a new captain?

This is exactly what I mean..people are perfectly happy watching obvious, everyday plot devices/actions over and over again, but the minute someone brings psychology into the picture, half the audience drops out...people take it very seriously and personally. There was a lot of knee jerk reaction to the counselor's expanded responsibilities for example, but I think Roddenberry got it right when he said in the future, we'll consider people mechanics will be as important as machine mechanics.

Wrong..Riker didn't disobey, he brought to Jellico's attention the practical difficulty related to him by the chain of command why his order wasn't sensible. It has also been brought up that Riker consistently offers his opinion on Captain's orders (since Farpoint actually), and is the direct result of his experience on the Pegasus.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

I'll never understand the hate Jellico gets in this forum. I was sad to see Picard come back at the end of the episode.

As far as the four shift rotation goes... did anyone bother to think he was doing it for the good of his crew? You're going into a tense situation... two hours less staring at your monitor per shift may be a good thing for everyone involved. It keeps your people sharper and puts less pressure on them. And increasing the efficiency of your warp drive may ensure more people come home if things get ugly.

They were going on a combat mission that could lead to full scale war and they were going to be right on the front line.

Riker came off as a total douche in this episode. He was only interested in continuing to do things the way they were always done. Less work for him that way.

 

[RAMA]

I'll never understand the hate Jellico gets in this forum. I was sad to see Picard come back at the end of the episode.

As far as the four shift rotation goes... did anyone bother to think he was doing it for the good of his crew? You're going into a tense situation... two hours less staring at your monitor per shift may be a good thing for everyone involved. It keeps your people sharper and puts less pressure on them. And increasing the efficiency of your warp drive may ensure more people come home if things get ugly.

They were going on a combat mission that could lead to full scale war and they were going to be right on the front line.

Riker came off as a total douche in this episode. He was only interested in continuing to do things the way they were always done. Less work for him that way.

So maybe 4 shifts is a good idea...except it was brought to Jellico's attention that there may not be enough skilled man power to fill the positions needed..Maybe Starfleet should have planned the mission better before sending them off in such a rush.

You'd really like to see Jellico week after week??? He was a one note commander that would probably bore you after 3 episodes. Picard had many different shades to him.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

So maybe 4 shifts is a good idea...except it was brought to Jellico's attention that there may not be enough skilled manned power to fill the positions needed..Maybe Starfleet should have planned the mission better before sending them off in such a rush.

At the end of the day it's Riker's job to be creative and make it work.

LAFORGE: If we take this grid offline, we're going to have to shut down exobiology, the astrophysics lab and geological research.

Now are any of these needed on a combat mission? If not you already have personnel available to reassign to more 'pressing' tasks. Riker seemed to lack any desire to be creative in carrying out the orders Jellico gave him.

You'd really like to see Jellico week after week??? He was a one note commander that would probably bore you after 3 episodes. Picard had many different shades to him.

RAMA

Jellico was such a breath of fresh air and Ronny Cox is a formidable screen presence. The writers would have had a character with a family back home for the first time. It would have been an interesting dynamic.

 

[RAMA]

So maybe 4 shifts is a good idea...except it was brought to Jellico's attention that there may not be enough skilled manned power to fill the positions needed..Maybe Starfleet should have planned the mission better before sending them off in such a rush.

At the end of the day it's Riker's job to be creative and make it work.

LAFORGE: If we take this grid offline, we're going to have to shut down exobiology, the astrophysics lab and geological research.

Now are any of these needed on a combat mission? If not you already have personnel available to reassign to more 'pressing' tasks. Riker seemed to lack any desire to be creative in carrying out the orders Jellico gave him.

You'd really like to see Jellico week after week??? He was a one note commander that would probably bore you after 3 episodes. Picard had many different shades to him.

RAMA

Jellico was such a breath of fresh air and Ronny Cox is a formidable screen presence. The writers would have had a character with a family back home for the first time. It would have been an interesting dynamic.

I always thought Picard was a breath of fresh air: the perfect diplomat, commander, and scientist (unofficially). Played by the best actor of any ST incarnation.

So on a starship this large, with that many people and that busy, they are going to shut everything down for a combat mission? The 24th century values its science and knowledge a lot more than the 21st, doesnt it! I guess Picard can go on comabt missions without shutting any of these down. I suppose Picard's just a better commander, or...Jellico was just being an ass.

Yes ultimately Riker needs to make his orders work, but by bringing up his misgivings, he has warned the captain that if he "creatively" fills those positions, they may not have the efficiency and experience they would have otherwise had with the the regular 3 shifts. Would it work? Well it did, but the worst did not come to worse.

RAMA

 

[BillJ]

So on a starship this large, with that many people and that busy, they are going to shut everything down for a combat mission? The 24th century values its science and knowledge a lot more than the 21st, doesnt it! I guess Picard can go on comabt missions without shutting any of these down. I suppose Picard's just a better commander, or...Jellico was just being an ass.

You just don't get it. They were going to be on the front line if a war broke out. This wasn't going to be a minor skirmish and exo-biology isn't going to make a bit of difference if all that's left of your ship is a debris field.

I'd also have to say Picard and Riker were negligent if Jellico, in a few hours, spotted areas where the ship's performance could be improved.

 

[Shatnertage]

I can see where the anti-Jellico folks are coming from, but I liked the character. I thought he was capable of being developed into a nuanced leader if they wanted to keep him around for a while. Definitely a lot of layers there, and the reference to his kids is a clever way to show one way that he's different from Picard. Jellico, Jarok (from "The Defector"), the Cardassian interrogator, and his own brother ("Family") each are fathers, and each provided a different foil for Picard.

And even though I know the torture scenes were blatantly borrowed from 1984, Stewart's performance transcended that for me. Powerful stuff for an hour of TV, if nothing else.

 

[sonak]

So on a starship this large, with that many people and that busy, they are going to shut everything down for a combat mission? The 24th century values its science and knowledge a lot more than the 21st, doesnt it! I guess Picard can go on comabt missions without shutting any of these down. I suppose Picard's just a better commander, or...Jellico was just being an ass.

You just don't get it. They were going to be on the front line if a war broke out. This wasn't going to be a minor skirmish and exo-biology isn't going to make a bit of difference if all that's left of your ship is a debris field.

I'd also have to say Picard and Riker were negligent if Jellico, in a few hours, spotted areas where the ship's performance could be improved.

That's not "negligence." Jellico was interested in efficiency at the price of crew well-being. Remember in BOBW when Riker dismissed Wes, Geordi, and Shelby for the night to get some sleep because they were exhausted?

What did Riker say to Shelby when she made YOUR argument that they had to be ready to face the Borg in a war?

He said he didn't want them to be fighting the Borg at the same time they were fighting their own fatigue. It showed that Riker was a leader who gives a damn about the condition of the crew.

As has been mentioned before in threads about Jellico supposedly having a "military style," MORALE MATTERS in the military, anyone who doesn't think so doesn't know what they're talking about.




It seems like the pro-Jellico crowd thinks the job of subordinates in the military is to shut up and mindlessly follow whatever orders those above them give when that's not the case. A subordinate should bring up issues(in the proper way and through the proper methods) with what they see as unfair-unreasonable orders and are not doing their jobs if they're not.


And I agree with Rama that from what we saw Jellico was a fairly one-note character. I think there's a kind of psychological phenomenon where there's a tendency for some people to like fictional protagonists who are jerks that explains the popularity of certain anti-hero characters. Maybe this explains the Jellico thing on this board.

 

[Kelso]

Nope. I love it.


Great pair of episodes.

 

[Cyke101]

On a semi-unrelated but critical-analysis note, I also don't understand the hate Jellico gets, specifically because the viewer is *supposed* to dislike Jellico. That's what makes drama and that's what adds to the overall flavor of the story. It's like saying you hate Dwight Schrute on the Office, even though he's a major reason why the humor on that show works.

So, yeah, hate Jellico if one wants to, but then ask what is it in Jellico that you hate and then see what is it about him that adds to/works in the story; for a hated character, he sure is memorable enough to warrant a thread every few weeks. That in itself is pretty positive.

Jellico, in my eyes, has a command style best suited for a smaller ship that is focused mainly on combat and defense, like border patrol, rather than the Enterprise's multi-purpose mission

To be fair to Jellico, that's exactly why he was brought in: he was a fighter who could do combat and defense, for a mission that was very much about border control of sorts. Once the mission ended, he was off the ship as dictated by Starfleet.

I will note though, that as much as I would agree with the crew being a bit whiny, I think the TNG crew was hit by an amount of Plot-Induced Stupidity (PIS); before this episode, I don't think anyone could ever see them so insubordinate to anyone barring the usual alien phenomenon/mental manipulation probe/evil admiral. And after this episode, they never really did either. Even when Riker stood up to Pressman (ahem, evil admiral), it took an entire episode for him to reason it out AND he discussed the dilemma with other officers; he didn't throw a hissy fit to accomplish this, nor did he need to.

 

[BillJ]

As has been mentioned before in threads about Jellico supposedly having a "military style," MORALE MATTERS in the military, anyone who doesn't think so doesn't know what they're talking about.

How many years did Picard and Riker have to make those changes that Data flatly states could be made in fifty-one hours?

And once he had the changes he felt that needed made in place, nothing says what type of CO he would be. Kinda reminds me of M*A*S*H when 'regular Army' Sherman Potter takes over from Henry Blake. Seemed his first order of business was to let everyone know that it was his show now. Then he began to adjust and mellow out. We really don't know... Jellico may have come aboard with a completely different tenor if the mission they were going on was the study of a developing algae colony on Bullshit IX.

People act like Jellico exists in a vacuum. Came aboard and started making demands without having any idea what he was talking about. When he received his orders to take command of the Enterprise, he probably began studying the Galaxy class. Then he talked to the people he trusted about upgrades...the engineers aboard the Cairo. He definitely caught LaForge flat-footed.

Shelby may have hit the nail squarely on the head when she said that Riker only knew how to play it safe. Seems to be a common theme running throughout the Enterprise hierarchy.

 

[Shon T'Hara]

My sticking point with Jellico is the scene in Engineering. Geordi objects to the time frame he demands. Data says it is attainable, and Geordi says it would if no one sleeps for two days. Jellico says get on it and walks out. To me, that shows disrespect for the man in charge of the section who is thinking of the well-being of his people and it shows disrespect to those people because he wants them to work to the bone and then potentially go into battle at the same time.

Haven't we seen other Starfleet engineering staffs pull similar feats? If Kirk, Sisko, or Janeway had made the same demands of Scotty, O'Brien, or Torres, they would've gotten it done with time to spare.

Then there's the four shift rotation. Jellico wants the four shift rotation. The crew chiefs tell Riker that it would cause major problems and Riker delays the creation of the fourth shift until he can bring it to Jellico's attention. Jellico instantly demands the fourth shift with 'no excuses.' No explanations either.

To me, Jellico is a micro-manager, so focused on keeping everything about the ship itself running shipshape that he forgets about the crew.

He delegates a task to Riker, expects it to get done, and then is shocked when Riker tells him he hasn't done it yet -- that's the exact opposite of micromanagement. Jellico's expectation of Riker was perfectly reasonable, but Riker chose to whine about how difficult it was.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

My sticking point with Jellico is the scene in Engineering. Geordi objects to the time frame he demands. Data says it is attainable, and Geordi says it would if no one sleeps for two days. Jellico says get on it and walks out. To me, that shows disrespect for the man in charge of the section who is thinking of the well-being of his people and it shows disrespect to those people because he wants them to work to the bone and then potentially go into battle at the same time.

Haven't we seen other Starfleet engineering staffs pull similar feats? If Kirk, Sisko, or Janeway had made the same demands of Scotty, O'Brien, or Torres, they would've gotten it done with time to spare.

Maybe it was minor exaggeration, but this was at the same time that Jellico was taking away half of Geordi's staff for the purpose of giving them security training. Jellico may have been trying to prepare them for war, but expected the change overnight. The other captains make those demands under circumstances that are 'we need this now to survive.' Jellico's demands were 'I want this now to prepare this ship for war.' There IS a difference.

Then there's the four shift rotation. Jellico wants the four shift rotation. The crew chiefs tell Riker that it would cause major problems and Riker delays the creation of the fourth shift until he can bring it to Jellico's attention. Jellico instantly demands the fourth shift with 'no excuses.' No explanations either.

To me, Jellico is a micro-manager, so focused on keeping everything about the ship itself running shipshape that he forgets about the crew.

He delegates a task to Riker, expects it to get done, and then is shocked when Riker tells him he hasn't done it yet -- that's the exact opposite of micromanagement. Jellico's expectation of Riker was perfectly reasonable, but Riker chose to whine about how difficult it was.

How is holding off because the department heads of the ship said that it would cause problems and letting the captain know about it 'whining'? He wanted to bring something to the captain's attention. He held off making the change because he wanted to bring the concerns of the department heads to the captain's attention. The captain didn't care about their concerns, he wanted it done his way, with 'no excuses.'

 

[BillJ]

Maybe it was minor exaggeration, but this was at the same time that Jellico was taking away half of Geordi's staff for the purpose of giving them security training. Jellico may have been trying to prepare them for war, but expected the change overnight. The other captains make those demands under circumstances that are 'we need this now to survive.' Jellico's demands were 'I want this now to prepare this ship for war.' There IS a difference.

I think everyone is misinterpreting the situation. The Federation is clearly moving to a war footing and the Enterprise is going to be sitting on the front lines. The ship has to be ready for combat in 52 hours.

JELLICO: I'm aware of your current design system. It's not good enough. If these negotiations fail, we could find ourselves in a war zone and if that happens I want to be loaded for bear.

I don't know about you. But if I think I'm going to be in a potential war zone in 52 hours I'm not going to mind putting in extra hours of work if it increases my chances for survival.

It's an episode that I don't rewatch to this day because the Enterprise crew comes off in such an unflattering light. They were the ones who come off as inflexible.

 

[PsychoPere]

Shelby may have hit the nail squarely on the head when she said that Riker only knew how to play it safe. Seems to be a common theme running throughout the Enterprise hierarchy.

Now that presents me with a thought that would have been a major, and I think interesting as hell, shake-up: Captain Jellico and Commander Shelby, instead of Captain Picard and Commander Riker.

[...] the Enterprise crew comes off in such an unflattering light. They were the ones who come off as inflexible.

Agreed completely, though generally I'm not all that fond of the 1701-D command crew as a whole.

 

[RAMA]

I can see where the anti-Jellico folks are coming from, but I liked the character. I thought he was capable of being developed into a nuanced leader if they wanted to keep him around for a while. Definitely a lot of layers there, and the reference to his kids is a clever way to show one way that he's different from Picard. Jellico, Jarok (from "The Defector"), the Cardassian interrogator, and his own brother ("Family") each are fathers, and each provided a different foil for Picard.

And even though I know the torture scenes were blatantly borrowed from 1984, Stewart's performance transcended that for me. Powerful stuff for an hour of TV, if nothing else.

He was effective in bringing "conflict" and drama into the 2-parter, but I would not want him as a regular captain.

RAMA

 

[Shatnertage]

^ I couldn't see him headlining TNG, but he could have made it as a recurring character once or twice a season. I think there was a lot of potential there.

 

[Saquist]

On a semi-unrelated but critical-analysis note, I also don't understand the hate Jellico gets, specifically because the viewer is *supposed* to dislike Jellico. That's what makes drama and that's what adds to the overall flavor of the story. It's like saying you hate Dwight Schrute on the Office, even though he's a major reason why the humor on that show works.

So, yeah, hate Jellico if one wants to, but then ask what is it in Jellico that you hate and then see what is it about him that adds to/works in the story; for a hated character, he sure is memorable enough to warrant a thread every few weeks. That in itself is pretty positive.

Jellico, in my eyes, has a command style best suited for a smaller ship that is focused mainly on combat and defense, like border patrol, rather than the Enterprise's multi-purpose mission

To be fair to Jellico, that's exactly why he was brought in: he was a fighter who could do combat and defense, for a mission that was very much about border control of sorts. Once the mission ended, he was off the ship as dictated by Starfleet.

I will note though, that as much as I would agree with the crew being a bit whiny, I think the TNG crew was hit by an amount of Plot-Induced Stupidity (PIS); before this episode, I don't think anyone could ever see them so insubordinate to anyone barring the usual alien phenomenon/mental manipulation probe/evil admiral. And after this episode, they never really did either. Even when Riker stood up to Pressman (ahem, evil admiral), it took an entire episode for him to reason it out AND he discussed the dilemma with other officers; he didn't throw a hissy fit to accomplish this, nor did he need to.

LOL
PIS...yeah I'm using that.

^ I couldn't see him headlining TNG, but he could have made it as a recurring character once or twice a season. I think there was a lot of potential there.

I like Jelico in the New Frontier opposite Calhoun. He's a good Admiral antagonist.

 

[Gary7]

Jellico wanted the ship to make the jump from peaceful exploration to military combat ready practically from the moment he took command. The crew attempted to bring their complaints to him, and he brushes them off. Even Picard suggests that he slow it down a little, find out how it'd been done on the ship before, and Jellico's response is 'This is my ship now.'

My sticking point with Jellico is the scene in Engineering. Geordi objects to the time frame he demands. Data says it is attainable, and Geordi says it would if no one sleeps for two days. Jellico says get on it and walks out. To me, that shows disrespect for the man in charge of the section who is thinking of the well-being of his people and it shows disrespect to those people because he wants them to work to the bone and then potentially go into battle at the same time. Jellico also transfers half of the engineering staff over to security. They may share uniform colors, but they're not the same department.

Then there's the four shift rotation. Jellico wants the four shift rotation. The crew chiefs tell Riker that it would cause major problems and Riker delays the creation of the fourth shift until he can bring it to Jellico's attention. Jellico instantly demands the fourth shift with 'no excuses.' No explanations either.

Excellent examples you cited, DGCatAniSiri. I didn't like Jellico. He gave off a stiff, cold air that was unpalatable. Of course, his priority was not to get the crew to like him but to get the job done. Yes, a man like Jellico will get things done, but he won't instill a pleasant work atmosphere. People will do their jobs, but they won't be very enthusiastic. It's like he wasn't looking at this command as long term. Just to accomplish the mission and then move on. As such, he wasn't seeking to develop a good rapport with the people under his command.

I'm not giving Riker a pass, because he does make it a point of pride to get Jellico to ask he take on the mission, but he IS doing his job of trying to keep the ship and crew running smoothly. Jellico just doesn't listen and doesn't trust his judgment. And when Riker says that it is his responsibility to point out what may be mistakes on the captain's part he is relieved of duty. It's just his demand that Jellico ask him to do the mission that grates. I even give a pass on the 'there's no joy' line - you should be able to wake up every day and enjoy what you do, and the overall impression of the Enterprise under Jellico's command is that it is an unpleasant work environment that pays no attention to you.

Exactly. Jellico doesn't extend much respect to Riker. It's just "get the job done, as I ask it. no questions, doubts, or suggestions." That's not what I call a good leader. I had respect for Jellico's quick thinking and tactics, but he had an underlying game plan that he kept mostly to himself. It kind of reminded me what Kirk did in "The Enterprise Incident." But in this case, Jellico could have briefed Riker a bit more while still maintaining the right attitude.

All in all, I thought it was a great two-part episode. One of the best!

 

[Shon T'Hara]

He delegates a task to Riker, expects it to get done, and then is shocked when Riker tells him he hasn't done it yet -- that's the exact opposite of micromanagement. Jellico's expectation of Riker was perfectly reasonable, but Riker chose to whine about how difficult it was.

How is holding off because the department heads of the ship said that it would cause problems and letting the captain know about it 'whining'? He wanted to bring something to the captain's attention. He held off making the change because he wanted to bring the concerns of the department heads to the captain's attention. The captain didn't care about their concerns, he wanted it done his way, with 'no excuses.'

Riker's job was to make sure the captain's order was carried out. He didn't do that. That's not acceptable behavior for a first officer. Whatever issues the department heads had, Riker should've solved them himself instead of dropping more problems on the captain's plate