Was Spock wrong to abandon the Rigel colonies?

[Timo]

Even the original story confirms that a starship can outrun the DDM, though. No two ways about that. And it took up to a year (or down to, what, a week?) for the DDM to work through star systems between L-370 and L-374, which probably doesn't mean hundreds of systems; if the time spent was indeed closer to one year than one week, then there'd certainly be time for stopping to think things through before the beast hits Rigel, let alone the densely inhabited parts of the galaxy.

The DDM is menace enough when it's an unstoppable juggernaut. It doesn't have to be a fast unstoppable juggernaut on top of that.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Awe]

Spock had plenty of evidence of what happened to a single starship took on a device that had already demolished entire freaking planets. He was justified in getting the hell out of Dodge!

Mr Awe

 

[BillJ]

Spock had plenty of evidence of what happened to a single starship took on a device that had already demolished entire freaking planets. He was justified in getting the hell out of Dodge!

Mr Awe

Obviously he didn't have enough evidence as a single starship defeated the device in the end.

 

[blssdwlf]

Obviously he didn't have enough evidence as a single starship defeated the device in the end.

Which single starship are you referring to? It took two starships and a shuttle to defeat the DM.

Now a single starship on a suicide mission, then yes

 

[T'Girl]

... insystem warp isn't always slow as such; the "Bread and Cicruses" hop across 1/16 parsecs would have been mostly insystem.

One-sixteenth of a parsec is over two hundred and sixty time the distance to Neptune. That's not even close to in-system

Obviously he didn't have enough evidence as a single starship defeated the device in the end.

Which single starship are you referring to? It took two starships and a shuttle to defeat the DM. Now a single starship on a suicide mission, then yes

In term of defeating the DM, it was the Constellation alone that accomplished this. At best the shuttle craft lightly damaged the DM, the Enterprise didn't even scratch the paint.

It was a single starship.

 

[blssdwlf]

@TGirl - so how would a single starship defeat the DM? The Constellation was the weapon but it definitely needed the Enterprise to bring back home the crew.

Like I said before, a single ship could do it if it does not plan to come home.

 

[BillJ]

@TGirl - so how would a single starship defeat the DM? The Constellation was the weapon but it definitely needed the Enterprise to bring back home the crew. Like I said before, a single ship could do it if it does not plan to come home.

If he had no other options, I have no doubt Kirk would have sacrificed the Enterprise and her crew to save the Rigelians.

 

[YARN]

Again, the Enterprise with working warp engines catches the DM despite the DM having a minimum 4 minute head start.

Example 1.​

F-16 Fighter Jet vs. Standard Horse

The horse has a top speed of around 30 MPH and covers a quarter mile in just under two minutes. The F-16 can travel in excess of 1,300 MPH.

Give the Horse a 4 minute or 4 mile heads start and the F-16 will catch it in very little time.

Example 2.​

Ferrari 599 GTB vs. Smart Fortwo

The Ferrari can accelerate more than twice as fast as the subcompact and has a top speed more than twice as high as the Smart car.

Give the smart car a 4 minute head start on a straight stretch of road and the Ferrari will catch it rather quickly (but not nearly as quickly as the F-16 overtakes the horse).

Example 3.​

2010 Chevy Camaro vs. 2009 Dodge Challenger

The Camaro is a half second faster to 60 and 15 MPH faster on the top end. It is both quicker (acceleration) and faster (top speed) than the Challenger.

Give the Challenger a 4 minute head start and the Camaro will (eventually) overtake the Challenger

What do these examples have in common? Besides the fact that each has one object overtaking another object after a 4 minute head start, not a whole lot. This is why the 4 minutes proves nothing without additional information about how many minutes (hours?) it took to overtake the DM. Is the Enterprise like a Jet overtaking a horse or like one sports car eventually catching up to another (slightly slower) sports car? The answer matters if we are going to give the DM a 10 light-year head start to Rigel (following Spock's plan).

 

[T'Girl]

If he had no other options, I have no doubt Kirk would have sacrificed the Enterprise and her crew to save the Rigelians.

This, warriors don't always come home.

e 4 minutes proves nothing without additional information about how many minutes (hours?) it took to overtake the DM.

There is also this, while the DM was chasing the Enterprise, both ship were likely running full out sublight acceleration. But after the DM basically gave up on the Enterprise and turn towards the colony (and back towards the Constellation) the DM might have reduced it's acceleration or even settled into a stead cruising speed, enabling the Enterprise to eventual over take it after she finally did make her turn.




.

 

[YARN]

We aren't told that the DM is "barely gaining," only that it is "gaining."

But fails to catch up. Always. Which IMHO justifies more than the definer "barely", so I was being charitable there.

If that's charity, I'd hate to see prejudice.

At some moments it's gaining, at others the Enterprise is getting away.

SPOCK: It came up on us fast, Captain, but we seem able to maintain our distance.

3 lines of dialogue later...

SPOCK: We are more manoeuvrable, but it is gaining on us.

after it attacks

SPOCK: We have outrun it, Doctor.

after the second attack

SPOCK: We can maintain this speed for only seven hours before we exhaust our fuel, but it can refuel itself indefinitely.

SPOCK: At our present rate of consumption, we'll exhaust our impulse power long before then.

SULU: It's gaining on us, sir.

The ONLY reason why the DM does not catch the Enterprise after the second attack is because the Constellation is used to destroy it. It was gaining on the Enterprise and everything we are told indicates that it would have most certainly would have caught the Enterprise. The mere fact that the Enterprise is not ultimately caught (which would have been the end of the series - they all die - THE END) and thus "always getting away" proves very little. It certainly says nothing in itself about how quickly the Enterprise was able to outrun the DM. The mere fact that impala outuns the cheetah says nothing about whether or not it "barely" escaped. The impala could outrun the cheetah twice and only have just barely escape in both circumstances - which is basically what happened on Trek, because this is what makes for good drama.

 

[blssdwlf]

Food for thought now that we're examining this episode with a fine tooth comb

With the Enterprise's warp drive out, at no point does Spock indicate that they will be caught before their fuel runs out (that's 7 hours!) And the dialogue implies that if they had a day's worth of impulse fuel they'd still not be caught.

Now how much faster would that make the DM than the Enterprise at impulse speeds? I'd say not much.

SPOCK: We can maintain this speed for only seven hours before we exhaust our fuel, but it can refuel itself indefinitely.
...

SPOCK: Warp drive out. Deflector shields down. Transporter under repair. We are on emergency impulse power.
KIRK: How long to repair warp drive?
SPOCK [OC]: At least one solar day.
SPOCK: At our present rate of consumption, we'll exhaust our impulse power long before then.
SULU: It's gaining on us, sir.
KIRK: Take evasive action, Mister Sulu.

What is interesting is which universe one would like to approach it from.

TOS-verse: since they are in-system, even if the DM was at Warp it'd be barely over c giving the Enterprise the ability to stay just barely ahead at near sublight (or even just barely c). If the DM got far enough outside the system it probably would be uncatchable even if the Enterprise had warp. This allows the various chases with warp vs warp and warp vs impulse to still work in-system and give Decker's reasoning credibility.

TNG-verse: since the entire battle is fought at sublight with the DM not even going FTL to catch the Enterprise both times (the outrun chase and the out of fuel in 7 hours chase) calls into question whether it is an immediate threat to Rigel as Decker claims. This is a little trickier to work out logistically because it gives the DM plenty of opportunities to go to FTL but it doesn't, changing the nature of the reason for the battle, IMHO. The only thing we can assume is for whatever reason, the DM can be easily distracted by a sublight ship from heading off at FTL to devour another planetary system. Maybe Decker's plan should have been to just lure the DM away from Rigel instead of taking it head-on!

 

[Timo]

At some moments it's gaining, at others the Enterprise is getting away.

And why this happens is clear: the DDM gains when the Enterprise does not attempt to get away; it gains when she maneuvers around Kirk with the intent to transport, and later when she attacks the DDM or indecisively floats around. The Enterprise gets away when she wants to. Example: SULU: "It's gaining on us." SPOCK: "Take evasive action, Mr. Sulu." Problem solved.

The Enterprise is always faster, which is good for story consistency. Even the wounded Constellation is faster. The DDM is a slow and clumsy monster, but no less a monster for that minor failing.

Story consistency need not suffer from the idea that the DDM can get to the next star system relatively quickly, either. Separate combat and cruise modes for its drive system are easily postulated, a scifi staple at least part of the audience would be familiar with, and a nice way of keeping the fighting intimate (so that a propulsion-less starship with the main hero aboard doesn't get completely left behind).

That fuel problems would stop Decker or Spock from indefinitely playing cat and mouse with the beast is a rather convoluted plot twist, and at odds with general Trek continuity. But if the fighting really is impulse-only, then we can argue that impulse engines do have fuel problems, even though warp engines demonstrably do not. Spock's fuel concern was expressed specifically when Decker pursued the "indefinite cat-and-mouse" course (DECKER: "Maintain speed and distance."). It need not be relevant to the argument of pursuing the monster from star to star, as long as we accept that all the fighting was at impulse.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Question, after the DM turn away from the Enterprise,.why did it head (according to Sulu) for the Rigel colony? In the previous star systems the DM destroyed all the planets in the system, in L-374 the two inner most planets were untouched, why abandon those potential sources of energy?

 

[DonIago]

Maybe they weren't "edible" per the DM's programming? If memory serves we're not given a lot of detail as to the planets' specifications.

 

[Timo]

Or then it was smarter than it looked, and realized that it couldn't catch the annoying starship with its inferior engines, but could lure her into her doom by threatening to leave... But that would presuppose the DDM realized these ships would want to defend more star systems than just this one.

Alternately, the DDM figured out that a system defended by two starships was not worth the hassle.

Perhaps it was essentially a pussycat that wanted no harm, and would never have eaten planets that didn't want to get eaten? Some 400 people beaming down to their doom at the very last moment would have only themselves to blame...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[YARN]

And why this happens is clear: the DDM gains when the Enterprise does not attempt to get away; it gains when she maneuvers around Kirk with the intent to transport, and later when she attacks the DDM or indecisively floats around. The Enterprise gets away when she wants to. Example: SULU: "It's gaining on us." SPOCK: "Take evasive action, Mr. Sulu." Problem solved.

Does “evasive action” mean running away in a straight line? Does it mean taking evasive zig-zag maneuvers? Does the Enterprise outrun it by gaining a little ground each time she turns harder than the DM? We don’t know.

And how long does it take for those first evasive maneuvers to work? We don’t know. We cut away to Kirk griping about how he is missing the game because his big screen TV is broken (no, Washburn, you get in there and help me fix the flat screen).

The Enterprise is always faster, which is good for story consistency.

If the impala only barely escapes the cheetah because it is always just a little bit faster, you have both dramatic tension and story consistency.

We only know for sure that the Enterprise is more maneuverable. Also, we should note that the warp drive is not damaged until after the first attack. She may or may not have been under warp power during the first attack.

What counts for my argument is not whether the Enterprise is faster than the DM, but whether Decker is correct in asserting that they are facing a moral dilemma (i.e., do you fight a desperate fight or quite possibly sacrifice the Rigel colony?). So long as the DM is fast enough to pose a real threat to Rigel, it does not matter if the Enterprise is faster than the DM.

Spock’s plan is to circle back to the Constellation, and pick up the Captain, and then get away from the DM’s jamming interference to alert Starfleet. Traveling away from the interference means moving away from the source of the interference. The source of the interference is moving toward Rigel. The Enterprise must, therefore, move away from the most direct path to Rigel, ceding the optimal path to the DM. The interference is established to be several light years across. In short, the Enterprise has to give the DM a head start of several light years.

Even if the Enterprise is faster than the DM, even if it is significantly faster than the DM, it may not be fast enough to cover a gap this wide.

Also, contact with Starfleet Command can also take a period of time. Depending on where you are, it can take hours, days or weeks to contact HQ. How much more time is lost as they are waiting for order?

Even the wounded Constellation is faster.

Wha???? Prove it.

The wounded Constellation is saved by the Enterprise getting the machine to turn away from it by firing on it. Then Kirk drives the ship straight down its throat.

Are you basing this on the final attack by Kirk?

Story consistency need not suffer from the idea that the DDM can get to the next star system relatively quickly, either. Separate combat and cruise modes for its drive system are easily postulated, a scifi staple at least part of the audience would be familiar with, and a nice way of keeping the fighting intimate (so that a propulsion-less starship with the main hero aboard doesn't get completely left behind).

Fair enough.

NOTE: Star Trek TOS is a bit inconsistent on this point. In The Ultimate Computer, there is warp speed combat, right? Also, there is an episode where Scotty complains that a Starship really cannot engage in combat maneuvers w/out warp drive. Then again, we have also seen her fight using impulse power, so it’s a wash.

That fuel problems would stop Decker or Spock from indefinitely playing cat and mouse with the beast is a rather convoluted plot twist, and at odds with general Trek continuity.

So is our latest “hardest substance known” that shields the DM.

Perhaps damage to the engine systems may impact engine efficiency? Hit the fuel tank on a plane and you can diminish its range.

 

[YARN]

Question, after the DM turn away from the Enterprise,.why did it head (according to Sulu) for the Rigel colony? In the previous star systems the DM destroyed all the planets in the system, in L-374 the two inner most planets were untouched, why abandon those potential sources of energy?

Maybe it was full? It's the Doomsday Machine, not the glutton machine. How is it supposed to maintain its sleek tapered cone shape if it gobbles up everything in sight?

Seriously? This is a good question. At least, I think it is, because it has occured to me too.

Perhaps the thing only targets class M planets (or something along those lines?

Another question: How does it deal with gas giants? There are no chunks to slice out of Jupiter. Even a rocky planet that get blasted is a very massive object. Crack it like an egg and gravity will glue it back together - it would take A LOT of energy to simply blast an Earth-type planet to bits. With a gas giant you would not even have bits blast.

 

[Timo]

If the impala only barely escapes the cheetah because it is always just a little bit faster, you have both dramatic tension and story consistency.

Indeed. And the tone of the episode seems to be that the impala is not at risk of being eaten unless she selflessly wants to help the other, wounded impala. Our heroes could always cut and run, but then they wouldn't be heroes...

We only know for sure that the Enterprise is more maneuverable. Also, we should note that the warp drive is not damaged until after the first attack. She may or may not have been under warp power during the first attack.

The thing is, if the first engagement were propulsively different from the later ones, this would mean that the DDM's propulsive capabilities are inconsistent in the episode. If we make the capabilities consistent by saying that the Enterprise remains at impulse (which the use of transporters imples anyway), then this directly leads to the idea that the DDM must have a separate propulsion mode for threatening Rigel.

Such a propulsion mode is implicit in the path of destruction - but not explicit. The DDM doesn't disappear in a flash of Cherenkov radiation when it sets course for the next system; it appears to lumber away at its usual speed.

So we have no way of knowing whether the DDM or the Enterprise would be faster at interstellar warp, and by how much. The episode carefully withholds this information from us. We're only left with the "lumbering giant" impression that rather automatically guides us to thinking that Decker/Spock could take a breather or a detour, and still have time to mount a defense.

Wha???? Prove it.

That's a tricky one to notice, but it's there. Decker's attack at the beast when it's moving towards Rigel, explicitly 180 degrees away from the Constellation, should carry the battle away from Kirk; the DDM has no reason to alter course there, nor to slow down. Decker is the one maneuvering into the supposedly vulnerable maw of the beast.

Yet Kirk, in the wounded Constellation that can only do impulse (and later only 1/3 impulse), reaches the battle site, closes in to phaser range, and catches the attention of the DDM. Flat out impossible if the battle were at warp speed, and rather odd even if it were at full starship impulse. So the DDM is not capable of full starship impulse (which we knew already), and in addition is outpaced by the wounded starship as well.

The engagement range of the Constellation is necessarily fairly short, not a potshot taken from far astern: Kirk's and Decker's ships alternately divert the beast's attention and thereby get outside its sphere of interest, meaning both are at roughly the same range (DDM tractor beam range) of the beast in the endgame of this engagement.

NOTE: Star Trek TOS is a bit inconsistent on this point. In The Ultimate Computer, there is warp speed combat, right? Also, there is an episode where Scotty complains that a Starship really cannot engage in combat maneuvers w/out warp drive. Then again, we have also seen her fight using impulse power, so it’s a wash.

True. But Scotty's complaint in "Elaan of Troyius" was about a fight against a warp-driven opponent (even if said opponent did what the quoted distances and times seem to imply, that is, swooped in and out at warp but did the actual strafing at impulse). If the DDM is warp-incapable in insystem combat, there's no inconsistency, and nothing to be won by applying warp against it during the phaser engagements.

Perhaps damage to the engine systems may impact engine efficiency? Hit the fuel tank on a plane and you can diminish its range.

Perfectly possible. At the end of the episode, Kirk sails out at an energy-conserving impulse crawl, indicating his fuel worries aren't over - but he hopes to regain warp drive, rather than hail Starfleet for a tanker or a tug (now that the jamming is gone). Which in turn indicates the fuel worries would disappear if warp came back online...

Perhaps the ship consumes fuel at the same rate regardless of drive mode? Seven remaining hours would then get Kirk to system edge at impulse - or all the way back home at warp! But if that somewhat nonsensical idea were true, then Kirk certainly shouldn't be wasting his fuel in making "minimum headway" when the warp repairs are in progress. And Spock's initial fuel worry seems tied to maintaining a specific speed...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[YARN]

The thing is, if the first engagement were propulsively different from the later ones, this would mean that the DDM's propulsive capabilities are inconsistent in the episode.

Why? If the Enterprise tries to get away at warp, it pursues at warp. If the Enterprise tries to zig-zag at impulse (a relative gnat to our giant), it has gives chase at slower speed so as to bracket the ship.

Most modern jet fighters can break the sound barrier, but turning dog fights are subsonic. At mach speed, you have a missile fight. At subsonic speed, you have a turning dogfight where guns are a relevant weapon option. It is not a propulsive inconsistency to note this, is it?

Such a propulsion mode is implicit in the path of destruction - but not explicit. The DDM doesn't disappear in a flash of Cherenkov radiation when it sets course for the next system; it appears to lumber away at its usual speed.

So we have no way of knowing whether the DDM or the Enterprise would be faster at interstellar warp, and by how much. The episode carefully withholds this information from us. We're only left with the "lumbering giant" impression that rather automatically guides us to thinking that Decker/Spock could take a breather or a detour, and still have time to mount a defense.

A lumbering giant that is sometimes gaining on a top of the line Starship and sometimes losing its prey. A lumbering giant that can keep pace with the Enterprise at impulse until she exhausts her fuel.

This "lumbering giant" that appears OUT OF NOWHERE and starts kicking butt before Spock can beam the damage control party back aboard the Enterprise. A slow impulse-drive ship that is miles long with a maw that could swallow a dozen starships would hardly seem to be candidate for a craft that could pop out of nowhere and surprise the Enterprise in this manner.

That's a tricky one to notice, but it's there. Decker's attack at the beast when it's moving towards Rigel, explicitly 180 degrees away from the Constellation, should carry the battle away from Kirk; the DDM has no reason to alter course there, nor to slow down. Decker is the one maneuvering into the supposedly vulnerable maw of the beast.

Yet Kirk, in the wounded Constellation that can only do impulse (and later only 1/3 impulse), reaches the battle site, closes in to phaser range, and catches the attention of the DDM. Flat out impossible if the battle were at warp speed, and rather odd even if it were at full starship impulse. So the DDM is not capable of full starship impulse (which we knew already), and in addition is outpaced by the wounded starship as well.

This supposes more than it proves.

The battle between the DDM and the Enterprise is a turning battle.

SULU: Closing fast.

SPOCK: Deflector shields at full power. They can't take much more of this.
DECKER: Helmsman, hold your course. Stand by all phaser banks.
SULU: Aye, aye, sir.
(The planet killer fires at them.)
SPOCK: Deflectors holding, but weakening.

Q: How is it that there deflectors are weakening if they have not even reached the thing yet?
A: Because it has turning around and is shooting at them. The DDM has itself made a 180 degree turn.

After the two meet, they are in the merge of a turning battle. For all we know those turns are carrying the Enterprise back towards the Constellation. Decker would certainly want to lead the thing away from Rigel, so it is plausible that he would engage in an attack pattern that draws the DDM in the opposite direction of Rigel.

Nevertheless, it must be owned that the Constellation manages to catch up in an improbable amount of time. This I would simply chalk up to bad writing. The DDM had a 4 minute head start while Spock and Decker argued. If the DDM is at impulse and the Constellation is at impulse, it should have have taken the Constellation several minutes to get there, even if the DDM is lumbering 1/3 impulse! This is a case where I think we simply have to recognize this as an inconsistency that keeps the story moving. That is, it is not something we should stand on to make our cases, but to keep quietly in the background and kind of squint at when we are attempting to enjoy the episode.








​

 

[Timo]

Why? If the Enterprise tries to get away at warp, it pursues at warp. If the Enterprise tries to zig-zag at impulse (a relative gnat to our giant), it has gives chase at slower speed so as to bracket the ship.

Why would it do that latter bit? It's not actually chasing the Enterprise: it's trying to shake her off so that it can go to Rigel. If it were capable of warp insystem/immediately/whatever, it would leave the starship in its wake. Since it doesn't, there's something strange going on if it is warp-capable - but nothing amiss if it isn't.

A lumbering giant that is sometimes gaining on a top of the line Starship and sometimes losing its prey.

But, as noted, it always loses its prey. And the chases don't appear particularly intense: every time the DDM makes headway, it's because Spock or Decker is telling the ship to do something else than evade. When the ship concentrates on evasion, she always succeeds.

This "lumbering giant" that appears OUT OF NOWHERE and starts kicking butt before Spock can beam the damage control party back aboard the Enterprise. A slow impulse-drive ship that is miles long with a maw that could swallow a dozen starships would hardly seem to be candidate for a craft that could pop out of nowhere and surprise the Enterprise in this manner.

Excellent point. Then again, TOS-R shows us that "visibility" is limited by dense rubble, and even the original dialogue establishes our heroes are isolated by subspace interference. They can sense the Constellation, but that ship is sending out a distress signal...

Q: How is it that there deflectors are weakening if they have not even reached the thing yet?

Per dialogue, they don't "weaken" until after the DDM takes its first onscreen shot, which could and should come after Decker makes his first offensive sortie against the machine's vulnerable parts.

That they "can't take much more of this" before anything actually happens could be due to one of two things:

1) The DDM drains the ship's power by its third weapon, the one that isn't the tractor beam or the antiproton beam - the one that deactivated the antimatter aboard the Constellation. This could also explain the seven-hour fuel limit thing.

2) Spock is simply saying the deflectors can't do a repeat performance of the first encounter, as a preemptive warning to Decker.

If the DDM is at impulse and the Constellation is at impulse, it should have have taken the Constellation several minutes to get there, even if the DDM is lumbering 1/3 impulse!

And the events allow for several minutes, no problem there. (Although the Constellation may be capable of full impulse at that point, because the 1/3 limitation is only mentioned after the DDM spits out the ship, possibly after chewing on it a little.)

A straight-line course of the battle away from the Constellation at best DDM speed would also match the facts, as long as best DDM speed is lower than best Constellation speed. The fight could merely keep the DDM from doing what it wants, namely accelerate to interstellar drive mode.

Of course, it's always also possible that the DDM wasn't headed for Rigel at all, but was merely making for some tactically advantageous position - or even heading for the second and first planets, which happened to lie in the same direction as Rigel. Sulu could be way too enamored with his "course projections" to stop and think through the possibilities.

Timo Saloniemi