Have you reached the Angel line:
Whispering to Lorne, "Because it's pretty..."
Whispering to Lorne, "Because it's pretty..."
Angel - (My) First Impressions
- Thread starter Too Much Fun
- Start date
Have you reached the Angel line:
Whispering to Lorne, "Because it's pretty..."
Yeah, I liked that one too. Angel's off-key karaoke scenes are fun, but they also make me cringe. Yikes!
I believe Angel was originally conceived as more of an "anthology"-style show than Buffy, with greater reliance on standalone episodes. Towards the end of the first season, though, I think the producers realized it worked better with ongoing story arcs, so it became more serialized as it went on (especially in Season 4, which I believe Joss once jokingly described as almost like a season of 24).
I too liked Doyle, and was sorry to see him get killed off so early on. I was initially pissed when I realized that Wesley was going to replace him as a new regular, largely because I hated Wesley when he was on Buffy. Of course, throughout the rest of the series, he gradually became the coolest character ever, so what the hell do I know?
Similarly, Cordelia also went through some pretty significant changes, largely after the first season. She never completely lost the bitchiness, but she became a much more responsible and compassionate character as time went by -- in fact a lot of people (both on the show and in real life) regarded her as the "heart" of Angel Investigations.
With Gunn, it took a while for me to warm to him (his addition seemed like a rather obvious attempt by Whedon and Co. to add diversity to the group, and attract more black viewers in the process -- not a bad goal, however, it didn't feel entirely organic to me), but I eventually did. He never became a great character, but he had his moments. Overall, I don't mind him.
I liked Fred from the beginning. She lost a fair bit of her quirkiness after Season 3, but Amy Acker always managed to make her endearing.
Lorne -- very entertaining character, I thought. Great comic timing, as label said. So sad to hear about Andy Hallet's death last year.
I agree with RoJo, Season 3 is where the show really gets going; at times, it's fu**in' epic. For me, this is when the show became better than Buffy and stayed that way.
As a whole I don't think Angel is a better series than Buffy, Buffy is slightly better, not least because there's more of it. However season 3 of Angel is better than season 6 of Buffy which was shown paralell to it because it had a dip in quality whilst Angel maintained it's quality throughout
The wit is very strong, no doubt. But what I noticed a lot on my current rewatch - and what really started getting on my tits - is the tendency to have one character saying something, and then another character enters the room or is secretly standing behind them or something, and finish the sentence for them with some kind of supposedly witty remark. It feels like it happens six times an episode, and actually works perhaps once per season. Every other time it's clumsy and obvious, and infuriating in its sheer frequency.
I could seriously argue against that. I thought Season 4 was quite bad and far beneath the quality of the rest of the show.
Season 4 actually gets a lot better on rewatch for me. Since I know what's coming, I can actually see them lay the groundwork for it.
But enough about Season 4. The OP is still in Season 2!
While I concede that the Season 4 arc had some difficult flaws to overcome in the storyline and questions about how characters acted and why..........it was still for me (and many others) some of the most compelling story telling from the entire run. I think Angel really benefits from the serial story-telling utilized in Season 4 with the ante' getting upped week after week.
And given how many people rank it so highly, I know quite a few people enjoyed the arc despite some of it's flaws so I'd "seriously' argue against anyone framing Season 4 as "bad".
I won't give any spoilers but I will say this: Season 4 is a hell of a roller coaster ride the first time around. The 2nd time around, it doesn't make a damn lick of sense.
Agreed. I think that, romantically, Angel works much better with Darla than he ever did with Buffy, Cordelia, or Kate. The whole of "The Trial" absolutely breaks my heart, from Darla's karaoke rendition of "Ill Wind" to Darla's acceptance of her death to Lindsey's bitter, "How did you think this was going to end?"
Plus, when Angel stands at the edge of the diving board over the empty pool, "Either I'm going to find a cure, or you're about to see something kinda funny."
Only David Boreanaz can maintain that fragile balance that allows him to be a dork & a badass at the same time. I'm also a big fan of "Herb Saunders from Baltimore" from "Sense & Sensitivity." And then there's Angel's legendary bad dancing from "She." (Just when you think Wesley has defined bad dancing, Angel comes along and completely redefines everything!)
As for Doyle vs. Wesley, I love Wesley. But if I had to pick only one, I think I'd have to go with Doyle. I just love that archetype of the ne'er-do-well sidekick. (I put Doyle in the same class next to Chuck Fishman on Early Edition, Harrison Davies on Tru Calling, and to a lesser extent Al on Quantum Leap.)
Season 2 has got to be my favorite season since it's the apex of Angel's character arc. As great as Seasons 3-5 are, I think that Season 2 is where the show worked out all of its primary themes. All of the stuff with Darla & Lindsey is absolutely brilliant!
But one of my most favorite episodes would have to be "Sanctuary" in Season 1. It's not because it's a crossover. It's because it's a kind of episode that only Angel could do. He saves the girl not because he's a hero but because he's been a villain. He's been there in the darkness, which is the only thing that allows him to help lead Faith back to the light. It's a kind of heroism that a self-righteous goody-goody like Buffy could never achieve.
As for Cordelia, I think she shows a lot more layers on Angel then she did on Buffy. I'm thoroughly sympathetic towards Cordelia. Yes, she's still tactless and can come across as shallow in certain respects. But in the ways that really count, her affection towards Angel, Doyle, & Wesley is very genuine. The mistake later seasons made was when they started to round off her sharp, bitchy corners, which made her a lot less fun and made her vulnerable side less effective by making it so consistently visible.
Agreed. I think that, romantically, Angel works much better with Darla than he ever did with Buffy, Cordelia, or Kate. The whole of "The Trial" absolutely breaks my heart, from Darla's karaoke rendition of "Ill Wind" to Darla's acceptance of her death to Lindsey's bitter, "How did you think this was going to end?"
Plus, when Angel stands at the edge of the diving board over the empty pool, "Either I'm going to find a cure, or you're about to see something kinda funny."
Only David Boreanaz can maintain that fragile balance that allows him to be a dork & a badass at the same time. I'm also a big fan of "Herb Saunders from Baltimore" from "Sense & Sensitivity." And then there's Angel's legendary bad dancing from "She." (Just when you think Wesley has defined bad dancing, Angel comes along and completely redefines everything!)
As for Doyle vs. Wesley, I love Wesley. But if I had to pick only one, I think I'd have to go with Doyle. I just love that archetype of the ne'er-do-well sidekick. (I put Doyle in the same class next to Chuck Fishman on Early Edition, Harrison Davies on Tru Calling, and to a lesser extent Al on Quantum Leap.)
Season 2 has got to be my favorite season since it's the apex of Angel's character arc. As great as Seasons 3-5 are, I think that Season 2 is where the show worked out all of its primary themes. All of the stuff with Darla & Lindsey is absolutely brilliant!
But one of my most favorite episodes would have to be "Sanctuary" in Season 1. It's not because it's a crossover. It's because it's a kind of episode that only Angel could do. He saves the girl not because he's a hero but because he's been a villain. He's been there in the darkness, which is the only thing that allows him to help lead Faith back to the light. It's a kind of heroism that a self-righteous goody-goody like Buffy could never achieve.
As for Cordelia, I think she shows a lot more layers on Angel then she did on Buffy. I'm thoroughly sympathetic towards Cordelia. Yes, she's still tactless and can come across as shallow in certain respects. But in the ways that really count, her affection towards Angel, Doyle, & Wesley is very genuine. The mistake later seasons made was when they started to round off her sharp, bitchy corners, which made her a lot less fun and made her vulnerable side less effective by making it so consistently visible.
Heh, I quite liked most of season four, but thought pretty much this sentiment here regarding most of at least the first half of season five.
The first chunk of Season 5 was pretty bad for me as well. It wasn't until "Lineage" that he show started to get back on track for me. It's a shame the show didn't get at least 1 more season.....I really liked where they were headed with a few of the characters.
I've just seen "Reprise" and "Epiphany". As a continuity nerd, I loved the serialized nature of these episodes, as one picked up right where the other left off with Angel and Darla's (hate?) sex. Neat twist that Angel could have sex without turning evil. I knew that would happen, because it was HATE SEX, right? Still, the director set up the shots so Angel's reaction after the sex looked EXACTLY like how he reacted in that Buffy episode where he did turn evil. It was so obvious this was just misdirection from the show's creators that I didn't buy it for a second, but I thought it was cute that they tried to fool us, anyway. 
I think I understand what someone was saying now about there being a great pay-off to the firing. I thoroughly enjoyed Gunn, Cordelia, and Wesley getting to be condescending to Angel when he 'came crawling back' after realizing the error of his ways in "Epiphanies". I was so happy for all of them as he can't treat them like lackeys now and can respect them like they deserve to be respected. On the character development front, I'm also very pleased to see Gunn and Wesley bond, with Gunn calling Wesley "English" as a term of endearment (awww!
) after Wesley takes a bullet for him.
I'm so glad Lilah and Lindsey were spared after Darla and Druscilla's massacre. What does everyone think about Lindsey McDonald? I think he is becoming one of the most intriguing characters on the show. At first, I thought he'd never be more than a typical cliche slimy lawyer (a role he played brilliantly, but still a cliche), but he's showed unexpected layers.
He seemed to generally care for Darla and although running over Angel was just a cruel move motivated by petty jealousy, I kind of felt bad for the guy and his feelings about Darla. I also thought that while I can understand Angel's disdain for him, breaking his hand and artificial hand was a bit much.
When he ran over Angel repeatedly and attacked him with a sledgehammer, I thought that was kind of badass, and when Angel beat the hell out of him in spite of all that, I felt a little sorry for the guy. I know he's a bastard, but I can't help but root for the guy a bit. Despite all his misdeeds, he's shown that he has more morals than the company he works for at times, which makes him a little more likable than a stereotypical pure evil villain.
I don't think this show has made any major missteps yet, aside from certain standalone episodes feeling like mostly a waste of time. There's always good stuff like Kate's quest, the character development of Wesley, Cordelia, and Gunn, the Darla situation, and the plans of Wolfram & Hart. I just don't like when it gets shoved into the background so much for one shot characters and dilemmas.
One thing that really bothered me was the weird anti-climax of this 'home office' thing. Angel is lead to believe that if he gets a special glove and ring, he will get to see the big leader/senior partner of Wolfram & Hart in a place called 'home office', which it's implied is a hell that he can reach by taking an elevator with dead Holland. Then the elevator takes them...to L.A.? This implies L.A. is hell? That seemed rather stupid and pointless to me. Can someone explain what the hell that was all about? Does it pay off later, or is that all there is to it? Seems like a rather corny and uninspired message to pay-off the good build-up there.
On a more positive note, there does seem to be constant movement in terms of the continuity-related stuff, so that keeps me going as I'm disappointed through the weaker episodes/moments. Sometimes I think they move a little too fast, though. I was really digging that Wesley had a girlfriend (I originally thought that girl would just be someone he bedded as a joke, since he got her by pretending to be Angel in a comedic fashion). Then, their relationship ended up being quite healthy, and just when I was getting used to her, they broke up! Oh well, I guess the cast was already too big, and they had to make room for more. I'm excited about the upcoming appearances of Harmony and Amy Acker's character.
I think I understand what someone was saying now about there being a great pay-off to the firing. I thoroughly enjoyed Gunn, Cordelia, and Wesley getting to be condescending to Angel when he 'came crawling back' after realizing the error of his ways in "Epiphanies". I was so happy for all of them as he can't treat them like lackeys now and can respect them like they deserve to be respected. On the character development front, I'm also very pleased to see Gunn and Wesley bond, with Gunn calling Wesley "English" as a term of endearment (awww!
) after Wesley takes a bullet for him.I'm so glad Lilah and Lindsey were spared after Darla and Druscilla's massacre. What does everyone think about Lindsey McDonald? I think he is becoming one of the most intriguing characters on the show. At first, I thought he'd never be more than a typical cliche slimy lawyer (a role he played brilliantly, but still a cliche), but he's showed unexpected layers.
He seemed to generally care for Darla and although running over Angel was just a cruel move motivated by petty jealousy, I kind of felt bad for the guy and his feelings about Darla. I also thought that while I can understand Angel's disdain for him, breaking his hand and artificial hand was a bit much.
When he ran over Angel repeatedly and attacked him with a sledgehammer, I thought that was kind of badass, and when Angel beat the hell out of him in spite of all that, I felt a little sorry for the guy. I know he's a bastard, but I can't help but root for the guy a bit. Despite all his misdeeds, he's shown that he has more morals than the company he works for at times, which makes him a little more likable than a stereotypical pure evil villain.
I don't think this show has made any major missteps yet, aside from certain standalone episodes feeling like mostly a waste of time. There's always good stuff like Kate's quest, the character development of Wesley, Cordelia, and Gunn, the Darla situation, and the plans of Wolfram & Hart. I just don't like when it gets shoved into the background so much for one shot characters and dilemmas.
One thing that really bothered me was the weird anti-climax of this 'home office' thing. Angel is lead to believe that if he gets a special glove and ring, he will get to see the big leader/senior partner of Wolfram & Hart in a place called 'home office', which it's implied is a hell that he can reach by taking an elevator with dead Holland. Then the elevator takes them...to L.A.? This implies L.A. is hell? That seemed rather stupid and pointless to me. Can someone explain what the hell that was all about? Does it pay off later, or is that all there is to it? Seems like a rather corny and uninspired message to pay-off the good build-up there.
On a more positive note, there does seem to be constant movement in terms of the continuity-related stuff, so that keeps me going as I'm disappointed through the weaker episodes/moments. Sometimes I think they move a little too fast, though. I was really digging that Wesley had a girlfriend (I originally thought that girl would just be someone he bedded as a joke, since he got her by pretending to be Angel in a comedic fashion). Then, their relationship ended up being quite healthy, and just when I was getting used to her, they broke up! Oh well, I guess the cast was already too big, and they had to make room for more. I'm excited about the upcoming appearances of Harmony and Amy Acker's character.
Somebody will probably explain it better than me, but the point was basically that there is no ultimate evil villain hiding in some evil lair that Angel has to defeat. Evil exists, and there is no real stopping it. It exists in the hearts and minds of everyone on Earth, and it is therefore too big for Angel to take down. Evil has been around since the dawn of time, and it will remain no matter how hard you fight it.
Basically, the whole point was to crush Angel's spirit by trying to make him believe that his crusade was pointless.
Meanwhile, Lindsay is one of my absolute favorite characters.
Seasons 3 and 4 are almost entirely arc-centric, with only the occasional standalone episode, though honestly you'd have a pretty hard time calling them that.
Yeah, I got the message about evil and the futility of the crusade. I didn't mind that part so much (although it seemed a bit too derivative of that 'First Evil' business in "Buffy the Vampire Slayer", which I wasn't too fond of either).
I just found it really disappointing how there was all this build-up to the elevator going to some crazy hell dimension, only for it to end up back where it started. That felt sort of like a bad joke.
All this talk of season 4 has me very curious. I think my friend who lent me the series had a lot of problems with it, but liked season 5, and couldn't understand why the show had such a big dip in quality for one season.
I think I also read online people speculating that season 4 suffered because Whedon was distraught over the cancellation of "Firefly"? Sounds like a controversial season, so I wonder what I'll think of it, but that's something to determine further down the line. I'm only heading into the final stretch of season 2 at the moment!
You may want to prepare yourself: most of the rest of Season 2 veers off into an unexpected direction that, honestly, was a bit of a letdown after the amazing arc with Darla and Dru, plus Angel's descent into near-madness. It's not all bad --we do get introduced to Fred, after all-- but it really felt somewhat out of place, especially on first viewing.
Don't worry, though: Season 3 ups the ante considerably and restores the series to its former glory.
As for Season 4... well, I love it, but yeah, I'm well aware that some folks don't really care for it at all. It's a bit schizo at times, but I think it's best if you just sit back and enjoy the ride. Almost every episode continues right from the previous one, and there are loads of plot twists (some of which are cool, and some of which aren't). I don't know how you'll feel about; it certainly has its flaws, but like I said, overall it's a favourite of mine.
Don't worry, though: Season 3 ups the ante considerably and restores the series to its former glory.
As for Season 4... well, I love it, but yeah, I'm well aware that some folks don't really care for it at all. It's a bit schizo at times, but I think it's best if you just sit back and enjoy the ride. Almost every episode continues right from the previous one, and there are loads of plot twists (some of which are cool, and some of which aren't). I don't know how you'll feel about; it certainly has its flaws, but like I said, overall it's a favourite of mine.
There are definitely certain aspects of Season 4 I don't enjoy, but I don't think it's from a quality in writing so much as a "Why is this character acting like this?!" kind of thing. Although if you do rewatch it, you understand exactly why it's happening. You still may not like it, but you understand it.
There are definitely certain aspects of Season 4 I don't enjoy, but I don't think it's from a quality in writing so much as a "Why is this character acting like this?!" kind of thing. Although if you do rewatch it, you understand exactly why it's happening. You still may not like it, but you understand it.
As I recall, wasn't it during Season 5 that Joss was heavily into production/shotting of "Serenity"? And ontop of that, doing other projects, like the "the Astonishing X-Men" comic series (which is great, if you don't have it!).
As soon as he came back for Season 6, the show noticably iomproved.
Joss is a little too "free" with giving his stuff over to other writers and producers.
As soon as he came back for Season 6, the show noticably iomproved.
Joss is a little too "free" with giving his stuff over to other writers and producers.
The Darla storyline of season 2 is definitely one of my favorites. The series switches gears for the final stretch of the season. It goes to places that I certainly wasn't expecting. Not my favorite little arc. Once season 3 really gets rolling (a few episodes in), the show is fully back on-track.
Season 4 is my absolute favorite season of the series. I think it's because I loved the super-serialized melodrama from that year. I loved that you needed to watch every single episode because it was essentially one continuous story arc from beginning to end (roughly). I had no idea where the plot was moving, it did a great job maintaining the mystery and introducing a lot of different elements to keep you guessing and to keep the tension high.
Season 5 really disappointed me until roughly the half-way mark. The series undergoes several dramatic changes (location, casting) and the writers abruptly switch gears from telling a serialized story in season 4 to many stand-alones in early season 5. I didn't like the abrupt shift. I also found many of the early season 5 episodes to be rather weak. Having said that, the later episodes in the season are quite good and feature a couple of the best the series ever offered.
Season 4 is my absolute favorite season of the series. I think it's because I loved the super-serialized melodrama from that year. I loved that you needed to watch every single episode because it was essentially one continuous story arc from beginning to end (roughly). I had no idea where the plot was moving, it did a great job maintaining the mystery and introducing a lot of different elements to keep you guessing and to keep the tension high.
Season 5 really disappointed me until roughly the half-way mark. The series undergoes several dramatic changes (location, casting) and the writers abruptly switch gears from telling a serialized story in season 4 to many stand-alones in early season 5. I didn't like the abrupt shift. I also found many of the early season 5 episodes to be rather weak. Having said that, the later episodes in the season are quite good and feature a couple of the best the series ever offered.
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