The rank of "Commodore"

[Gary7]

In TOS, we see Captain Kirk and his crew encounter a few commodores like Mendez, Stocker, Wesley and Decker. Decker and Wesley were the only ones commanding a starship.

So... why is it that when we see Kirk's continuation past TOS, there's only the ranks of Captain or Admiral ever brought up? We can assume he was a commodore at some point, after his captaincy... right? And that when we finally get to see him for the first time since TOS he's already an admiral. Kirk eventually does get "demoted" from Admiral... but why to Captain? Why not Commodore?

I'm tending to think that it's familial association. Everybody knows "Captain Kirk". Had he been demoted down to "Commodore Kirk", it just wouldn't have sounded right.

But... is there any rational reason why Kirk was not given the rank of Commodore instead of Captain after losing his rank of Admiral? When it was clear he was more suited to commanding a ship instead of being a Starfleet administrator, I see no reason why he couldn't have been made a commodore--more prestigious rank and certainly befitting a man of his legendary experience.

Also... in TNG, we see plenty of captains and admirals. Do we ever see a commodore? I don't recall.

 

[Anwar]

By the time of the TOS movies, I think the rank of Commodore in real life had been replaced by Rear Admiral Lower half. But no one wants to be called a "Lower Rear Admiral" so they just call them Rear Admiral.

Kirk in TMP was a 1 Pip Rear Admiral (the rank that replaced Commodore), by WOK he was a Vice-Admiral (3 Pips) and was busted back to Captain (no pips).

 

[BillJ]

I'm tending to think that it's familial association. Everybody knows "Captain Kirk". Had he been demoted down to "Commodore Kirk", it just wouldn't have sounded right.

They don't want to put Kirk in a position where he would have authority over more "rational" captains.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Commodore was still in use during the TOS movies--there was a mention of a "Commodore Probert" in background dialogue in TMP and there was an alien officer in a background scene in TVH wearing what is now considered a commodore rank pin.

Starfleet appeared to have either promoted Kirk straight from captain to admiral in TMP, or he was promoted to commodore at some point after TOS went off the air but didn't stay at that rank very long.

Commodores were essentially just senior captains during TOS--they could command starships or starbases--so Starfleet could have bumped Kirk a few grades to fill the Chief of Starfleet Operations position for political reasons--and busted him back down a few grades after disobeying the C-in-C for political reasons too, IMO...

 

[USS Excelsior]

In a flashback ENT episode there was a Commodore Forrest.

 

[Gary7]

Great responses.

Yep, I'd no idea but Anwar is right--the rank of Commodore was officially retired, in real life... several times. The most recent was in the early 1980's, as there was some ambiguity about the usage. So, I can see the parallel idea blending over... why show it in the Star Trek series that appeared afterward if it wasn't used any longer, right?

 

[Enterprise1981]

Another interpretation is Commodore is a defunct title in the 24th century. In "The Enemy" Geordi calls Centurion Bochra "Commodore", possibly meaning it as an insult.

 

[BillJ]

Another interpretation is Commodore is a defunct title in the 24th century. In "The Enemy" Geordi calls Centurion Bochra "Commodore", possibly meaning it as an insult.

Why would it be an insult? More than likely, Geordi was just trying to be funny in a trying circumstance.

 

[PsychoPere]

Another interpretation is Commodore is a defunct title in the 24th century. In "The Enemy" Geordi calls Centurion Bochra "Commodore", possibly meaning it as an insult.

Why would it be an insult? More than likely, Geordi was just trying to be funny in a trying circumstance.

That's how I've always interpreted Geordi's comment. After all, calling Bochra "commodore" would be "promoting" him from the equivalent of Starfleet's Lieutenant Commander to Captain or Commodore, so it would be one odd way to insult him.

 

[The Wormhole]

We can assume he was a commodore at some point, after his captaincy... right?

Not necessarily. There's been speculation over the years to suggest that Kirk was promoted at a time when the Commodore rank was being phased out. Those who currently held it kept it until they were promoted/discharged/retired while Captains being promoted to flag rank were given the new rank Rear Admiral, Lower Half. This is used to explain how One-Star Admiral Kirk can be serving along side Commodore Probert.

The Commodore rank wasn't used in Trek after TMP with the exception of Enterprise's First Flight which featured flashbacks of Commodore Forrest. And strangely enough, the Trek XI timeline seems to have done away with the rank by the 2250s, since Pike was promoted from Captain to Admiral.

 

[blssdwlf]

Was the rank of Fleet Captain also retired as well? Pike and Garth were Fleet Captains, IIRC.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm wondering if Fleet Captain even IS a separate rank. It could simply be a more senior Captain, or another name for Commodore/RALH. We just don't know, really.

 

[Anwar]

I'm not sure it really was ever a real rank or just an "Honored Elder" type thing. After all, we see "Fleet Admirals" in Trek that don't have the 5 pips a Fleet Admiral should have.

 

[The Wormhole]

Fleet Captain in real life is more of a title than it is a rank. Star Trek, on the other hand has a somewhat contradictory view on the subject.

 

[sbk1234]

Hey! I was a commodore for a long time here on the TrekBBS!

 

[Cicero]

Commodore was still in use during the TOS movies--there was a mention of a "Commodore Probert" in background dialogue in TMP and there was an alien officer in a background scene in TVH wearing what is now considered a commodore rank pin.

Starfleet appeared to have either promoted Kirk straight from captain to admiral in TMP, or he was promoted to commodore at some point after TOS went off the air but didn't stay at that rank very long.

Or TMP took place later than is generally assumed. (Personally, I place it in 2278, based on stardates, which also helps explain the changes caused by real-world passage of time.)

^ I'm wondering if Fleet Captain even IS a separate rank. It could simply be a more senior Captain, or another name for Commodore/RALH. We just don't know, really.

It might even be akin to commodore in current usage (and usage between 1775 and 1882) referring to an officer of the substantive rank of captain who holds a position of authority over several other captains (fleet captain as proposed in World War II was meant for such captains, e.g. aboard aircraft carriers - though it was a substantive grade).

 

[C.E. Evans]

Commodore was still in use during the TOS movies--there was a mention of a "Commodore Probert" in background dialogue in TMP and there was an alien officer in a background scene in TVH wearing what is now considered a commodore rank pin.

Starfleet appeared to have either promoted Kirk straight from captain to admiral in TMP, or he was promoted to commodore at some point after TOS went off the air but didn't stay at that rank very long.

Or TMP took place later than is generally assumed. (Personally, I place it in 2278, based on stardates, which also helps explain the changes caused by real-world passage of time.)

So you're saying that Kirk commanded two five-year missions before TMP?

 

[BillJ]

Commodore was still in use during the TOS movies--there was a mention of a "Commodore Probert" in background dialogue in TMP and there was an alien officer in a background scene in TVH wearing what is now considered a commodore rank pin.

Starfleet appeared to have either promoted Kirk straight from captain to admiral in TMP, or he was promoted to commodore at some point after TOS went off the air but didn't stay at that rank very long.

Or TMP took place later than is generally assumed. (Personally, I place it in 2278, based on stardates, which also helps explain the changes caused by real-world passage of time.)

So you're saying that Kirk commanded two five-year missions before TMP?

Why?

Sir, you haven't logged a single star hour in two and a half years

This wouldn't preclude him having had command of another starship, a starbase or some other assignment after the first five-year mission ended.

 

[C.E. Evans]

Or TMP took place later than is generally assumed. (Personally, I place it in 2278, based on stardates, which also helps explain the changes caused by real-world passage of time.)

So you're saying that Kirk commanded two five-year missions before TMP?

Why?

Sir, you haven't logged a single star hour in two and a half years

This wouldn't preclude him having had command of another starship, a starbase or some other assignment after the first five-year mission ended.

I think if Kirk commanded a starbase or another starship between TOS and TMP, we definitely would have heard about it in TMP...

 

[Timo]

Why? We didn't hear about his work as Chief of Starfleet Operations, either - not a single reference to a single operation he would have overseen.

Nor did we ever hear of Kirk's previous commands in TOS; we only heard of three missions where he had participated as a junior officer (the Republic in "Court Martial", the Farragut in "Obsession", and an unnamed starship in "A Private Little War"). His past wasn't a significant plot point, even though e.g. "Whom Gods Destroy" makes it sound as if he were an important war hero, and "Court Martial" lists all sorts of citations and commendations that supposedly make Kirk a uniquely decorated individual.

Such indirect building of Kirk's character might well continue in TMP: he has done great things, but we learn of this only through the fact that he has been made Chief of SF Ops.

Timo Saloniemi