Was Spock wrong to abandon the Rigel colonies?

[Warped9]

Fascinating discussing you folks are having here. I'd love to participate, but all bases appeared to be covered.

I will add one little thought just in case it hasn't been mentioned, or I missed it somehow.

Spock, as brilliant as he is, isn't a natural commander with the quality of thinking fast-on-his feet and thinking outside the box. That's not his strength. He might get there eventually, but that isn't his strength in the immediacy of the moment

However, it is Kirk's strength. Because as has been noted Kirk immediately picks up on the clue of the effect the shuttlecraft's explosion has had. Up to that point everyone was focused on staying away from the mouth of the planet killer. It's not surprising up to that point no one thinks of shoving something down its gullet. It's somewhat prescient of what Chief Brody does to the great white shark in Jaws. "You wanna eat somethin'? Chew on this!" and then BAM!

 

[BillJ]

Fascinating discussing you folks are having here. I'd love to participate, but all bases appeared to be covered.

Always fun to look at elements of TOS from different angles.

I think that what triggered my thoughts on this subject was the pure fact that the episode shows Decker as nuts... so Spock must automatically be right. Hell, that's what I thought for many years watching this episode. It's easy (and enjoyable) to get wrapped up in the classic scene where Spock takes command of the Enterprise back from Decker.

But when I watched it this last time, I noticed Spock didn't really try all that hard to save Rigel. He just constantly droned on about how they couldn't save Rigel.

And something about that just didn't set right with me.

 

[Wingsley]

^ I'd see this as a false choice.

Kirk left Spock in command, and Decker took over without a real plan of his own. Decker did all that hysterical venting about Rigel, came this close to getting the Enterprise gobbled up by the Giant Rotten Carrot, and in the end didn't accomplish anything until his suicide gave Kirk an idea.

In the final scene, Kirk mutters "poor Matt", but note that Kirk didn't seem to mourn the flag officer he called a "lunatic".

Spock's biggest failing was in not resisting Decker's attempt to take over the ship. Letting the visibly disheveled Decker take the Bridge so easily placed the Enterprise is jeopardy. (Actually, McCoy should've been on the ball too, considering he scanned the dazed Decker and hypoed him upon discovering him aboard the Constellation.)

The "that will be all" scene was the fulcrum on which the whole plot rests.

 

[YARN]

Decker did all that hysterical venting about Rigel, came this close to getting the Enterprise gobbled up by the Giant Rotten Carrot, and in the end didn't accomplish anything until his suicide gave Kirk an idea.

Lose your crew, find out the thing that killed them is headed to an outpost with millions of people, see if you get a little agitated or even hysterical.

Decker is correct; their duty is to protect the Rigel colony.

There are a lot of ships that got wrecked at Wolf 359, but their duty was not survive at any cost, but to do their utmost to defend Earth.

Moreover, it is only because Decker insisted on doing his duty that they stumbled on a way to defeat the machine. How many times have we seen our heroes fight in the hopeless situation, only to discover a solution in a dire moment. You have to be willing to persevere in those circumstances to find the solution.

Spock, however, is so fixated on his cost/benefit analysis that he cannot conceive of the possibility that an assault on the machine could work. When millions of lives in are in the balance your moral imperative is to find a way to save those lives... ...or to die trying.

Again, the Rigelians owe Decker a statue and a national holiday.

 

[BillJ]

I don't think anyone is debating Decker's sanity here, he had definitely fallen off the ol' sanity train. But perhaps the entire debacle of him taking command could have been averted if Spock had chosen a bit more care in regards to Rigel. Plus Spock had a flag officer on his bridge who he seemed to ignore.

 

[YARN]

I don't think anyone is debating Decker's sanity here, he had definitely fallen off the ol' sanity train. But perhaps the entire debacle of him taking command could have been averted if Spock had chosen a bit more care in regards to Rigel. Plus Spock had a flag officer on his bridge who he seemed to ignore.

What's crazy about Decker?

He was not crazy to transport his crew to the planet. If the best data projected that the machine was going to destroy the ship much more quickly than the planet, it makes sense to buy your crew some time by beaming them down to the planet. They may ultimately be doomed, but he did his best to buy them those minutes or hours.

Was he crazy because he was distraught that his plan backfired (i.e, the planet destroyed with the ship left to drift)? Who wouldn't be distraught? I would question his sanity if he wasn't broken up over the loss of his crew.

Was he crazy to assert that they had a duty to prevent the machine from getting to Rigel? No, Kirk says that they cannot allow the machine to get to Rigel.

Is he crazy for simply repeating the same actions and expecting different results? He does not simply replicate his original assault on the ship. He changes his tactics by hitting the thing point blank with full phasers. Spock argues that it won't work, but it is, at least, something that he has not tried yet.

Desperate, yes. Crazy, no.

He certainly is not in his right mind, but he isn't simply mad or crazy. "Fixated" is more apt than "insane."

 

[BillJ]

Well, we have an officer who is totally ignoring the data being fed to him...

SPOCK: Sensors show the object's hull is solid neutronium. A single ship cannot combat it.

At this point Decker should have been asking for alternate means of obtaining his objective of destroying the planet killer. The weapons he had on hand weren't capable of penetrating the hull per Spock's report. Or was ignoring the Science Officer part of Decker's general command style? Might explain why his ship was wrecked and his crew dead. Or did he think Spock was feeding him bullshit?

Usually denying the facts of a situation points to mental instability.

 

[YARN]

Well, we have an officer who is totally ignoring the data being fed to him...

SPOCK: Sensors show the object's hull is solid neutronium. A single ship cannot combat it.

At this point Decker should have been asking for alternate means of obtaining his objective of destroying the planet killer. The weapons he had on hand weren't capable of penetrating the hull per Spock's report. Or was ignoring the Science Officer part of Decker's general command style? Might explain why his ship was wrecked and his crew dead. Or did he think Spock was feeding him bullshit?

Usually denying the facts of a situation can point to mental instability.

He is distraught and fixated, but not crazy.

He had not yet tried hitting the thing with full phasers point blank, and even though Spock's report indicated that such an attack would fail, they are in a rather desperate circumstance. If they fail, Rigel falls - that is the nature of the dilemma as it is presented in the episode.

Any time someone with greater rank than Kirk comes on board, you know that s/he is going to cause problems. But of all the troublesome senior officers who have played this part, Decker is probably the most sympathetic and understandable.

 

[BillJ]

This is what I love about Star Trek. Two people agree with the general premise, but then start debating the finer details of their personal interpretation.

 

[YARN]

This is what I love about Star Trek. Two people agree with the general premise, but then start debating the finer details of their personal interpretation.

Norman Spinrad has commented that he had a different notion of how Decker should be played (he wanted Robert Ryan, not William Windham). Spinrad wanted an Ahab-type character, but Windham's portrayal was, in his opinion, "psychologically soft." I think it is Windham's "softer" portrayal that makes him sympathetic. You see an exhausted man struggling with a terrible reversal who gets carried away, but not really a mad man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=758fT5Ov590

But yeah, I think we agree about the general premise.

Here is a different reason to criticize Spock in this episode. Spock can clearly see that the guy is emotionally compromised, but refuses to do the right thing in the name of duty. Decker is a higher ranking officer and "that's that" for Spock. And yet, when Kirk yells for Decker to be relieved, Spock (belatedly, too belatedly to make a difference) finally grows a spine. And yet the situation has not changed! Decker still has the right to take command by every rule in the book, and Spock observes that Decker can have them court marshaled if they survive. Well, that would have been his option when McCoy was demanding that Decker be relieved! If Spock were to disregard duty in the name of practical necessity, he should have done it when his action would have made (from his point of view) a practical difference! It almost seems cowardly that he cannot do the right thing until another senior officer lets him off the hook.

 

[BillJ]

Here is a different reason to criticize Spock in this episode. Spock can clearly see that the guy is emotionally compromised, but refuses to do the right thing in the name of duty. Decker is a higher ranking officer and "that's that" for Spock. And yet, when Kirk yells for Decker to be relieved, Spock (belatedly, too belatedly to make a difference) finally grows a spine. And yet the situation has not changed! Decker still has the right to take command by every rule in the book, and Spock observes that Decker can have them court marshaled if they survive. Well, that would have been his option when McCoy was demanding that Decker be relieved! If Spock were to disregard duty in the name of practical necessity, he should have done it when his action would have made (from his point of view) a practical difference! It almost seems cowardly that he cannot do the right thing until another senior officer lets him off the hook.

Perhaps Spock didn't feel the crew would follow him initially, thinking that Decker would have to do something 'crazy' for the Enterprise crew to realize he wasn't 'all there'. These are all military officers trained to respect the chain of command, after all.

And Spock never 'grew a pair', he took command because Kirk called over and told him to.

 

[YARN]

Perhaps Spock didn't feel the crew would follow him initially, thinking that Decker would have to do something 'crazy' for the Enterprise crew to realize he wasn't 'all there'.

This is doubtful, McCoy was certainly with him.

Spock has been 1st officer on the ship for quite a while and has an impeccable reputation.

These are all military officers trained to respect the chain of command, after all.

Which only raises the question of why Spock disrespects the chain of command only after it is (from his point of view) too late for it to matter.

And Spock never 'grew a pair', he took command because Kirk called over and told him to.

You're right, he remains a coward to the end - hiding behind Kirk's authority. If they survive, Kirk will take most of the heat at the court marshal not Spock.

More importantly, Decker is still a Commodore and Kirk is only a Captain. Spock had no more grounds (by the book) to relieve him at that moment than he did moments before when it was McCoy who was pleading with Spock to relieve Decker.

 

[BillJ]

More importantly, Decker is still a Commodore and Kirk is only a Captain. Spock had no more grounds (by the book) to relieve him at that moment than he did moments before when it was McCoy who was pleading with Spock to relieve Decker.

I always wondered if 'personal authority of command' was something Starfleet recognized?

At the end of the day, Spock doesn't come off in a positive light in The Doomsday Machine.

 

[Wingsley]

Um, folks... Decker was crazy. Not just distraught. Crazy.

After Spock relieved Decker of command, Decker attacked Security Guard Montgomery, stole a shuttlecraft, and committed suicide.

Plain and simple, it's just like Hawkeye Pierce asked "has my trolley come derailed?" For Commodore Decker, it had.

 

[YARN]

At the end of the day, Spock doesn't come off in a positive light in The Doomsday Machine.

On two counts,

He is overly insensitive to his duty to protect the Rigel colony, and overly sensitive to his duty to obey superior officers.

If Spock had shown more alacrity with regard to the former, Decker may not have forced the issue with the latter.

EXAMPLE:

DECKER: You can't let that reach Rigel. Why, millions of innocent people would die.

SPOCK: I agree. Right now our best shot at saving Rigel is retrieving Kirk, informing Starfleet, and implementing a plan to destroy or disable the planet killer device. Now please accompany Dr. McCoy for a quick examination, as we will need your own expertise when the time for the attack approaches.

 

[BillJ]

Um, folks... Decker was crazy. Not just distraught. Crazy.

I'm not arguing the crazy angle... Decker wasn't right.

But Decker's mental impairment doesn't change the fact that Spock comes off poorly in this episode.

 

[YARN]

After Spock relieved Decker of command, Decker attacked Security Guard Montgomery, stole a shuttlecraft, and committed suicide.

He wasn't just offing himself -
DECKER: You said it yourself, Spock. There is no way to blast through the hull of that machine, so I'm going to take this thing right down its throat.

Full phasers at point blank range didn't work. Spock made it clear that he was punting with regard to the Rigel question. He had then been relieved of Command. This was his last chance to attempt to damage the Planet Killer before millions of Rigelians died. If crazy is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result, then Decker is not crazy. A long distance attack did not work with the Constellation, so he tried something different. A close range attack with the Enterprise did not work, so he tried something different. Finally, an internal attack with a shuttle does a minute amount of damage - and it was his unrelenting variation of strategy that revealed the key to destroying the machine. Again, those Rigelians owe him a statue and a holiday.

Now I am not saying he was all there...

"Crazy", however, is a trait-like characterization and not a state-like characterization. Decker, however, was not known to be crazy (consider Kirk's remarks at the beginning of the episode), but rather is suffering emotional duress. Also, Decker isn't simply smearing boogers over command consoles and proclaiming that he is the King of Siam. He is engaged in goal oriented behaviors, and his goal is a laudable one (moreover, the episode reveals that the goal is an attainable one).

Sure, he was acting a little nutty, but I wouldn't say he was nuts.

 

[blssdwlf]

But after she took minor damage (no warp damage) but before Decker turns her around to engage, the Enterprise outran the DDM.

True.

But that she had to labor to out run her before her warp engines were damaged is evidence that the PK is also warp -capable.

I'm not so sure they had to work hard to outrun the DDM. All we see is the ship taking evasive action and we find out that they outran the DDM. We have no idea whether the DDM or the Enterprise is faster in a straight line.

At first, the machine is gaining. The machine attacks. We get an intervening scene on board the Constellation. Then when we get back to the Enterprise, it is only just then that they have managed to create a wide enough gap that they are outside of its defensive perimeter.

If the DDM was faster then the Enterprise would have not been able to outrun it.

As to the earlier comment that the DDM was gaining on the Enterprise in the beginning it is possible given that the Enterprise during that time is staying within transporter range of the Constellation. Just imagine the sight of the DDM and Enterprise playing chase while circling the Constellation

Actually Decker's plan failed. Remember, Decker's plan was to hit it at point-blank with phasers (which he did not do with the Constellation.) If it were not for Kirk's intervention (with phaser and "his personal authority") the Enterprise would have been lost.

Semantics. His preferred tactics failed (hit it with phasers - use the shuttle craft), but his strategy (attack rather then retreat) was a success.

I guess I don't see it as a simple attack vs retreat strategy:

Decker = Attack it attack it attack it.

Spock = Retrieve Kirk (and presumably Kirk will order the Enterprise to get out of jamming to warn Starfleet)

Kirk = What the devil's going on? You mean you're the lunatic who's responsible for almost destroying my ship? (And Kirk's saying all of this before he even gets any damage reports from Spock!) Kirk obviously didn't expect to see the Enterprise to take on the DDM given the tactical analysis Spock gave him but it is an interesting "What if?" Kirk had been retrieved.

Alacrity EXAMPLE:

DECKER: You can't let that reach Rigel. Why, millions of innocent people would die.

SPOCK: I agree. Right now our best shot at saving Rigel is retrieving Kirk, informing Starfleet, and implementing a plan to destroy or disable the planet killer device. Now please accompany Dr. McCoy for a quick examination, as we will need your own expertise when the time for the attack approaches.

and then Decker would still drop the "regulations" bomb and take command. Decker most likely knew Kirk would not have taken the DDM head-on and his only chance to do so was to take the Enterprise while Kirk was off ship. He didn't even use Rigel as an excuse to take command, just that he was a Starfleet Commodore.

DECKER: Mister Spock, I'm officially notifying you that I'm exercising my option under regulations as a Starfleet Commodore, and that I am assuming command of the Enterprise.

Spock would sound a little smarter and perhaps eager to help, but the end result would have been the same, IMHO.

 

[YARN]

I'm not so sure they had to work hard to outrun the DDM. All we see is the ship taking evasive action and we find out that they outran the DDM. We have no idea whether the DDM or the Enterprise is faster in a straight line. If the DDM was faster then the Enterprise would have not been able to outrun it.

I refer you to the transcript:

SPOCK: We are more maneuverable, but it is gaining on us. Sensors indicate some kind of total conversion drive.

LATER
​

SULU: It's closing on us, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Closing, Captain.

This is BEFORE the Enterprise takes ANY damage.
​

LATER STILL

MCCOY: No casualties, Mister Spock. How are we doing?


SPOCK: We have outrun it, Doctor.
​

As to the earlier comment that the DDM was gaining on the Enterprise in the beginning it is possible given that the Enterprise during that time is staying within transporter range of the Constellation.

If so, why do we get this line?

SPOCK: Evidently programmed to ignore anything as small as a ship beyond a certain radius. We'll maintain a discreet distance and circle back to pick up the Captain.

I guess I don't see it as a simple attack vs retreat strategy:

Decker = Attack it attack it attack it.

Spock = Retrieve Kirk (and presumably Kirk will order the Enterprise to get out of jamming to warn Starfleet)

Kirk = What the devil's going on? You mean you're the lunatic who's responsible for almost destroying my ship? (And Kirk's saying all of this before he even gets any damage reports from Spock!) Kirk obviously didn't expect to see the Enterprise to take on the DDM given the tactical analysis Spock gave him but it is an interesting "What if?" Kirk had been retrieved.

On the contrary, your own remarks indicate that this is an attack (Decker) vs. retreat (Kirk and Spock) type situation.

Spock would sound a little smarter and perhaps eager to help, but the end result would have been the same, IMHO.

Perhaps, but what Spock did say was combative and only guaranteed/cemented Decker's response.

SPOCK: I am aware of the Rigel system's population, Commodore, but we are only one ship. Our deflector shields are strained, our subspace transmitter is useless. Logically, our primary duty is to survive in order to warn Starfleet Command.

DECKER: Our primary duty is to maintain life and safety of Federation planets. Do you deny that?

SPOCK: Mister Sulu, you will lay in an evasive course back to the Constellation.

DECKER: That thing must be destroyed.

SPOCK: You tried to destroy it once before, Commodore. The result was a wrecked ship and a dead crew.

Spock basically abdicates any responsibility to the Rigel colony by writing them off as a lost cause.

 

[blssdwlf]

^^

Check out the episode (or transcript) and you'll notice that the Enterprise and DDM cannot be possibly traveling in a straight line.

From the start where the Enterprise leaves the Constellation's side to move away from the DDM:

SPOCK: It came up on us fast, Captain, but we seem able to maintain our distance.
...
SPOCK: We are more maneuverable, but it is gaining on us. Sensors indicate some kind of total conversion drive.

to

SULU: It's closing on us, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Closing, Captain.

to

KIRK: All right. Lower your deflector screens Long enough to beam us aboard.
SPOCK [OC]: Acknowledged.

Kirk said what?? The DDM is pretty fast and so is the Enterprise but all this time the Enterprise is "maneuvering" and yet staying within transporter range. There is no intervening dialogue where Spock is bringing the ship around to beam Kirk aboard as seen in the later part of the episode and this chase between the DDM and the Enterprise gives no indication of straight-line acceleration or top speed.

If so, why do we get this line?

SPOCK: Evidently programmed to ignore anything as small as a ship beyond a certain radius. We'll maintain a discreet distance and circle back to pick up the Captain.

We get that line because it happens right after:

(shield lowered, DDM attacks!)
SPOCK: Evasive action, Mister Sulu.
SULU: Aye, sir.

They have to circle back to pick up the Captain in this case because they took evasive action and had to really move away from where the Constellation is and where the DDM happens to be.

And that brings us to this:

SPOCK: We have outrun it, Doctor.

Which is the only time I can see that the Enterprise had to move away from the DDM versus staying within transporter range of the Constellation and thus suggesting that the Enterprise is faster in a straight-line with working warp engines.

On the contrary, your own remarks indicate that this is an attack (Decker) vs. retreat (Kirk and Spock) type situation.

Not exactly. Spock is presuming that Kirk will take the ship to get reinforcements. Decker wants (and does) attack the DDM head on. We have no idea what Kirk might have done beyond Spock's presumption and thus my What if? Kirk was retrieved...

Kirk's options could be:
1. Outrun the interference, warn Starfleet
2. Maintain a discreet distance behind the DDM and study it for weakness (ala "Balance of Terror")
3. Attack it head on
4. Outrun it heading towards Rigel and attempt to warn colonists to evacuate
5. Lure the DDM to another area by attracting it with the Enterprise's power nacelles

In other words, Decker had locked in one option and Spock another but Kirk does not have to choose exclusively between the two and my argument is Decker knew that and took over before Kirk could be retrieved.

Perhaps, but what Spock did say was combative and only guaranteed/cemented Decker's response.

I'll give you that Spock's Vulcan bluntness could have contributed to Decker reinforcing the idea of attacking the DDM again to prove that his initial "attack" strategy was the correct one.