Clone Wars S2

[Temis the Vorta]

This is the running thread for S2...no spoilers for anything beyond the episodes I mention in each post, please.

The first few episodes are a step up over S1, which was a good start but I thought went way too heavy on the combat episodes. So far S2 shows more variety and some great universe-building.

Holocron Heist/Cargo of Doom/Children of the Force – I love that Cad Bane is a genuinely clever and slippery foe, requiring some effort and intelligence to combat. I thought the Jedi Council would be angrier at Anakin for endangering every force-sensitive child in the galaxy just to save Ahsoka. Isn’t that a prime example of why attachment is a bad thing for a Jedi?

And just how high & mighty are the Jedi, anyway? They didn’t particularly hesitate to risk turning Bane into a vegetable in an attempt to extract info from him – that scene came off pretty much like torture. Nice that they had a kid in the room so she could learn first-hand about Jedi ethics. Yep, Jedi can be pretty creepy sometimes…maybe Anakin isn’t so much of an anomaly?

Between this stuff and the whole clones issue, I'm still having a lot of trouble nailing down what the moral boundaries of the Jedi actually are. Are we supposed to believe that the Jedi a) have morals that intersect with our own in some ways, but in other ways are very different and sometimes creepy; b) are self-deluded hypocrites and actually not as much different from the Sith as they'd like to think; c) do have a well-developed moral structure, but have a lot of trouble living up to it; or d) are being written in a sloppy and inconsistent fashion.

Senate Spy – I like seeing the relationship between Anakin and Padme develop beyond just lovey-dovey clichés. I like the characters a lot more in Clone Wars than the in PT - Anakin's not a stalker, Padme isn't useless and weepy - and they seem to be well suited to each other. Sure, Anakin acts pretty wigged out by the whole situation in this episode, but as it turns out, his instincts are right on the money.

I still have to question exactly how Padme rationalizes ignoring the Jedi no-attachments rule – presumably the Jedi have good reasons for that rule that any sensible and intelligent person can understand – but if dippy Clovis is the alternative to sexy Anakin, I guess I can see her motive for willful ignorance.

 

[Mr Light]

"b) are self-deluded hypocrites and actually not as much different from the Sith as they'd like to think; c) do have a well-developed moral structure, but have a lot of trouble living up to it; "
I think it's these two. The EU stories are crammed with self-doubting Jedi who don't think they're going to fit into these impossible ideals. And also jammed stuffed with regular characters who think the Jedi and the Sith aren't so different, and that this millennial long conflict between them is a cult civil war endangering the rest of the galaxy.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

b) are self-deluded hypocrites and actually not as much different from the Sith as they'd like to think; c) do have a well-developed moral structure, but have a lot of trouble living up to it; or d) are being written in a sloppy and inconsistent fashion.

I think it's mostly "b" with some "c" tossed in for good measure. The reason it's not quite clear is "d".

I've always thought, right from that moment in the Jedi Council in TPM when Mace Windu spouts off about The Code that the Jedi, as depicted in the PT, was an institution that was not only doomed to failure -- but one that had to fail. Its views, nicely contradicted by Qui-Gon, were too regimented and unrealistic. Qui-Gon's view of the "living Force" seemed to be a better mindset. But after his death, and with the rigors of war, his ideals get thrown out the window, essentially sealing the fate of the council and the Jedi. With such a rigid doctrine, they can't possibly navigate the murky morality of war.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

So if the answer is b/c, then are there good, sensible reasons behind the Jedi rules, or were they always just self-defeating nonsense? Could a cabal of Force-users be trusted to run a society's military without rules against attachment, which seem designed to prevent them from having more loyalty to each other than to the society they are defending, which would lead them to evolve into a tyrannical law unto themselves? Could they be allowed to marry and have families without becoming an oligarchy that would threaten democratic rule?

I prefer the notion that there's a reason for the rules because a story about stupid people who inflict stupid rules on themselves and are therefore destroyed by their own stupidity doesn't exactly thrill me.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

I tend to think (or at least I'd like to think) that the Jedi adherence to their code became more and more fundamentalist as time went on. As Qui-Gon showed, there could be more than one interpretation of the Jedi "rules." It just seemed that the current "regime" of Jedi at the time of TPM -- and that included Yoda, too -- were just too strict and inflexible in how they followed their own code. To me, it always seemed a lesson against blindly following rules without thinking about their intentions. If that is the case, then I'd say that the Jedi weren't always as "self-defeating" in how they went about their business. Though by the time they found themselves embroiled in the Clone Wars, their collective mindset was woefully unprepared to deal with the situation.

Yoda's change in personality and advice from the PT to OT at the very least suggests that he's learned from the fall of the Jedi to be a little less strict and a little more open to the values Qui-Gon was voicing in TPM.

 

[Mr Light]

The reason for the no attachment rule is because attachment leads to possession and jealousy and the dark side.

The impression I get from the novels, though, is that the Jedi were willing to look the other way when one of them had an occasional fling, much like Catholic molesting priests. But an open marriage? Unh unh.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The reason for the no attachment rule is because attachment leads to possession and jealousy and the dark side.

That's what I thought, too. And attachment definitely would lead to revenge killings, which is a bigger threat in wartime than possessiveness and jealously. Even if you ban romantic attachment, the Jedi will still have comradely attachment to each other and that can be just as bad. So doesn't that mean a strict interpretation of the rules is the best way to avoid trouble, or at least no more prone to disaster than the loosey-goosey approach.

The real problem is that the Jedi insist on being warriors (or the larger society insists on them being warriors, since they are so effective at it). If it weren't for that, they might be able to get by with looser rules.

And here's a thought: if the Jedi struggle with following the good side of the Force, why not show the Sith struggling with the dark side? That may sound odd, but it's not natural for members of a social species - and any spacefaring race has got to be a social species - to be utterly selfish and devoid of empathy, so either they have to put some effort into it, or the dark side is like drug addiction that imposes unnatural behavior on them, and at some level they must be aware that they are being subject to something that is unhealthy and wrong.

I find the Clone Wars villains - at least the ones who are Sith and Dark Jedi (which is Ventriss, for example?), as opposed to garden variety miscreants like Cad Bane, who are allowed to have their own personalities - to be one-note and boring so far. What if they were more multifaceted in their struggle to adhere to their "principles" or cope with being drug addicts or whatever it is that actually underlies Sith-ism?

 

[Whofan]

Ventress is a dark Jedi. In the original cell-animated series, she claims to be Sith but Dooku says she isn't. Her chronology/origin is sort of mixed up, but that's a whole other topic there . She was originally one of the Sith concepts for AOTC, along with a droid sith (Which probably inspired Greivous), another alien Sith (Which became one of the background Jedi) and an old lady Sith. However when Lucas heard Christopher Lee was interested in the film, he tossed out most of the concepts and we ended up with Dooku.


"Dark Jedi" BTW is sort of a cheat for EU writers to include as many dark side bad guys as they like who work for the Sith.....but it never really is mentioned or seen in the films at all.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

What's the motivation behind being a dark Jedi? Are they hoping to be promoted to Sith someday? If there can only be two Sith, that's a pretty faint hope. Or is whatever motivates someone to be a Sith also present in lesser degree as a dark Jedi? (Getting back to the "is this drug addiction, mind control, simple lust for power or what?" conundrum). What exactly is the difference between being a Sith and being a dark Jedi? Are there different responsibilities? Does it "feel" different?

Anyway, back to S2 Clone Wars. Saw the three Genosis episodes - wow, great stuff!

Landing at Point Rain - Holy frak! Amazingly intense battle episode. I don't want the series to be all battle episodes, but if they want to do something like this every third or fourth episode, that's fine by me. I might have liked this better than previous battle episodes because finally the Jedi have some flesh-and-blood opponents, even though the scene where Anakin and Ahoska mow through some Genosans is pretty brief.

Weapons Factory/Legacy of Terror - Setting up what is no doubt a plotline about the brain worms (I don't need spoilers to know that somebody came out of that cave infected ).

But more significantly, these three episodes start building up some interesting character dynamics that I hope will form the basis of Anakin's fall, which should emerge organically from the major characters, their strengths and weaknesses and personal foibles. So far we have these elements:

-Anakin and Ahsoka have a genuinely charming sibling like relationship (since they are too close in age for a parent-child dynamic*), but one that also has me worried. They act like they're pretty much at the same level of maturity. I'm not sure how wise the Jedi were to put Anakin in charge of anybody, especially someone whose personality seems very similar to his.

He's not teaching Ahsoka to be a stable, mature Jedi at all. Instead they just seem to be reinforcing each others' giddy immaturity and risk-taking behaviors. It's scary the way they treat war as a game. The older Jedi tut-tut at that, but don't really do anything about it. They're two kids who are drunk on the power and illusion of invulnerability that the Force gives them. So far, they've glided past anything really bad, but how long can this last?

-Luminara is obviously a Jedi who "gets it" (and the way Anakin and Obi-Wan both call her Master leads me to believe she's senior to both?) but Anakin is never going to "get it." This isn't a new element in the series, but his pigheaded refusal to start toe-ing the No Attachments line is definitely going to be a factor in his fall. (Which should validate the Jedi rules as harsh but necessary.)

-Obi-Wan is intellectually curious and doesn't "think with his lightsaber" but is this an unambiguously good quality for him? If he'd taken the brain-worm back for study, how does he know it wouldn't have escaped and infected someone? He was taking a real risk, and Anakin might have been right to squash the worm and get the frak out of there. Maybe the way Obi-Wan tends to think like a scientist and not always as a warrior - not always seeing a situation in terms of power relationships - is going to contribute to Anakin's fall when he misses something crucial?

No spoilers, but right now I'm thinking that Ahsoka's "mysterious" absence from ROTS is significant. For Anakin's story to make sense, especially starting with a heroic and noble Anakin who doesn't appear to be very psychologically damaged, there needs to be some big element that is missing from the story so far. That element is probably Ahsoka dying, falling to the dark side, or falling to the dark side and the Jedi assigning Anakin to kill her.

Or maybe not that drastic, but he kills her anyway for whatever reason, the important point being, he has to do it because of those stupid Jedi rules, they expect him not to care because he shouldn't have gotten attached, yadda yadda. With that added factor, it won't seem so stupid and under-motivated that Anakin goes nuts over the Jedi Council not being more helpful in regards to Padme. If he's done something that extreme at their behest, he has every right to feel that they frakkin well owe him.

If that's how it all goes down, it will be exactly the story it should have been all along: believable without anyone needing to be stupid, a tragedy that unfolds because of the rules people set for themselves, and their unalterable personalities that they cannot change.

*Going back to Anakin and Ahsoka, it has some interesting resonances with the OT. When Vader realized his son Luke was still alive, did he think "that's great, I'll recruit him and it'll be like the good old days with Ahsoka"? Ironically, Ahsoka seems to be his most healthy and unconflicted relationship since he left Tatooine. He butts heads with Obi-Wan and fights with Padme, getting way too jealous for that to be a truly healthy relationship. Ahsoka is the only person he can be himself around.

 

[Whofan]

Dark Jedi, at least during the Clone Wars era, were often disillusioned with the order and joined the seperatists. There are also, like with the light side, alternative force religions apart from the Jedi such as the Nightsisters, which apparentally is where Ventress now comes from. Apparentally Dark Jedi do have ambitions to be Sith, though.


Ventress's original origin story is from the comics. Apparentally she was trained by a Jedi, but circumstances had her turn to the dark side.


According to the comic series Obsession

Spoiler: Ventress's fate

Ventress is eventually redeemed, and leaves the Republic for parts unknown. It's not known if her fate will change in the animated series

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Brain Invaders - Aaaaand sure enough...really good episode! The fight between Ahsoka and Beriss was a rare example of a lightsaber duel I actually felt a bit emotionally invested in, because of the possibility that the outcome might have real consequences for major characters. (I don't think I've seen an example of that since, uh, ROTJ? )

Ahoska couldn't die, but there was the possibility that she would be forced to kill Beriss, and that's going to have serious repercussions for her mentality. This goes to show how deft CW is at quickly introducing and developing characters and character relationships that actually matter.

And we have yet another example of Jedi hypocrisy. So, did anyone notice that Poggle was awfully beat-up looking after Anakin "discussed" things with him? Did they care? As long as Anakin gets the job done, are they willing to turn a blind eye? If so, then the Jedi can't complain when he goes totally off the reservation and the evil that they found so useful once comes back to bite them on the butt.

Anakin's pep talk to Ahsoka at the end was weird. He can't really believe the Jedi party line about no-attachments, can he? Does he really have no insight at all into his own behavior? Or did he just feel obligated to pay lip service to the party line, knowing damn well that his ongoing example to Ahsoka will invalidate it.

They would both have to be pretty oblivious not to see the parallels between Ahsoka taking a risk with not killing Beriss, and Anakin taking a risk not so long ago in saving Ahsoka while possibly endangering the future of the entire Jedi Order. Only that time, the stakes were far higher, since worst-case, the brain worm infection could have been contained at the medical station. Anakin has never repudiated that action, so why should Ahsoka believe his little lecture? Those two are like the blind leading the blind.

Grevious Intrigue - Okay, I've never understood what the point of Grevious is as a character, and I guess I never will. Obi-Wan hectoring him cracked me up: "General Grevious! Why is your motivation so boring? Kill all Jedi, yadda yadda, I can barely keep my eyes open. Come up with something better!" However, the particulars of Grevious' strategies against the Jedi were intelligent and interesting to watch on a micro level, even if he adds zipola to the saga on the macro level.

The Deserter - Stories about the clones are a non-starter for me, because the premise is so irreparably botched. A "Republic" worth its propaganda should have taken one look at that horrible clone factory and instantly recognized that it represents a horrific crime against everything a so-called republic should stand for. They should have shut down production immediately and then done their best to rehabilitate the clones already created and overcome their programming to serve only as cannon fodder.

CW is just compounding the problem by showing us that the clones do have the ability to transcend their programming and live their own independent lives. If they were simply mindless droids incapable of free will, then maybe it wouldn't be so gruesome that they were being used as cannon fodder, but the supply of clones should definitely have been turned off at the earliest possible moment, and the Republic should build a legitimate army made up of citizens who can freely make a choice to defend their system of government.

Rex's insistence that all clones follow their "oath to serve the Republic" makes me cringe since there's no way the clones would be in any position to understand what that oath meant - they have no context for understanding their lives other than what they've been programmed to believe and told. This story wants to pretend that both Rex and the deserter have legitimate points of view, when in fact, only the deserter is in a position to have an independent opinion on the matter, and Rex is just a poor, oppressed, brainwashed guy.

Then again, how different is this from what happened to Ahsoka for instance? She was taken away from her family as a very young child and given no real choice in how her life would unfold. So I guess I just need to accept that Star Wars will continue to remind me eerily of the Dominion, with brainwashed cadres of warriors who mindlessly serve the Republic the way Vorta and Jem'hadar serve the Founders - because that's the only option they've ever been allowed to know. What is the Republic and how has it earned the right to such slavish devotion?

The way I see it, the clone factory was Darth Sidious' way of testing the Jedi to see if they were as high and mighty as they claimed. They failed the test utterly, which makes it hard to fault Sid for proceeding to exterminate that gang of hypocrites.

I'm not at all sure we're supposed to be taking away the lesson that "the Republic and the Jedi are thoroughly rotten, everyone root for the Evil Galactic Republic!" since Anakin's story is apparently being presented as a tragedy and not a triumph. But I keep seeing evidence that I'm supposed to be losing all sympathy for the Jedi and the Republic, so at this point, I'm hopelessly confused! This story needs to jump one way or the other, and right now, it's just falling through the cracks in the middle.

However, since the problems of CW continue to be the elements that come from the botched PT, I won't fault it too much. On a micro level, the stories are well told and the characters are fun.

 

[fett51]

The most interesting thing to me about the whole attachment dialogue in the episode was the moral "Attachment is not compassion." Someone should've tattooed that on the inside of Anakin's eyelids.

As for Anakin as a teacher, I remember in Rising Malevolence back in season 1 Anakin rebukes Ahsoka for not following Jedi procedure and then flaunts protocol in a way that doesn't qualify as direct disobedience as a means of teaching her. In this episode we had both Anakin parroting the Jedi way and dialogue from Ahsoka to Barriss about how his ideas were extreme. I think he gets that as a teacher he has to reinforce the Jedi ways, but ultimately he thinks he knows better. I'm very curious to see how their relationship works out, particularly if she finds out about Padme or some of the other things he's done that flagrantly disregard the Jedi code.

As for the clones, the Republic is completely corrupt, hypocritical, and is turning more and more into the Empire day by day. They aren't the good guys. I think they're seriously missing an opportunity in not showing us more directly how horrible the Republic is becoming but the Jedi and Padme seemed like they were only just figuring that out in episode 3 so I suppose their hands are tied. I would like to think this is all an elaborate plot thread where we are seeing the Jedi being caught between unacceptable options and completely twisting their supposed ideals as a result. For example, the usual argument fans put forward for the Jedi choosing to lead the clone army is they had a choice between using the army and letting the Republic fall. Given Palpatine is behind everything, that would mean he deliberately twisted the Jedi into a mockery of who they are supposed to be as a justification for killing them. Unfortunately, if that level of thought is being put into the overall story of the series, I haven't seen much evidence of it.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The most interesting thing to me about the whole attachment dialogue in the episode was the moral "Attachment is not compassion." Someone should've tattooed that on the inside of Anakin's eyelids.

I wonder if Anakin actually cares about the distinction. In the PT, he seemed to have trouble with attachment because he was fearful of loss. In CW, he has trouble because he doesn't see why the Jedi should be allowed to tell him who he should be attached to, or why he should care.

It's the difference between a weakling who just wants his mommmmy and a strong, self-confident guy who can't abide obstacles to the fulfillment of his will. The first guy is impossible to synch up with the Vader; the second guy clicks right in like a lego. Maybe a subtle change in how the character is portrayed, but it makes all the difference.

dialogue from Ahsoka to Barriss about how his ideas were extreme.

Oh yeah, that was interesting! Does it refer to dialogue that's been in the show that I've forgotten about, or are we supposed to wonder about it?

As for Anakin as a teacher, I remember in Rising Malevolence back in season 1 Anakin rebukes Ahsoka for not following Jedi procedure and then flaunts protocol in a way that doesn't qualify as direct disobedience as a means of teaching her.

I love it! "Hey kid, here's how you game the system without being called on it." Not exactly the humble spirit of the Jedi way, is it? But perfectly consistent with the guy who can't abide obstacles and either sneaks around them or just barges right through.

As for the clones, the Republic is completely corrupt, hypocritical, and is turning more and more into the Empire day by day. They aren't the good guys.

I agree that that's how everything adds up, but I'm still uncertain that this is how we're supposed to interpret things because it's a radical departure from how the PT was portrayed. If this really is what the producers intend, I really hope they take the story through the end of ROTS - what they're setting up may lead to more or less the same basic sequence of events, but it's going to come across as very different in intent and tone. I was never convinced that the Republic and the Jedi were rotten in the PT - if that was the intent all along, they're doing a far more effective job now.

For example, the usual argument fans put forward for the Jedi choosing to lead the clone army is they had a choice between using the army and letting the Republic fall.

If that's the case, they should have let the Republic fall. How valuable is any Republic that can't convince its citizens to defend it? Are the Jedi mindless zombies serving a "Republic" that doesn't deserve their loyalty?

Given Palpatine is behind everything, that would mean he deliberately twisted the Jedi into a mockery of who they are supposed to be as a justification for killing them.

I don't think he needed a justification, but it's a good opportunity to improve Anakin's story and allow him to show some smarts by being the first to figure out Palps' game - and to not rat him out, recognizing that if the Republic and the Empire are about the same, why not side with the one that will let you have a wife and children, and keep your power too? In that case, "falling" to the dark side is simply the smart, rational choice.

And then the problem becomes that this has big repercussions for the OT because now Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the gang are fighting to return to a Golden Age that was never anything but a pathetic delusion. That's okay, they can keep the story going post-ROTS, right?

 

[Uncle Tobias]

After recently trying and loving this show myself, I watched ROTS again and Anakin just feels so flat by comparison. I almost want to see Lucas replace all his scenes with his CW-style self somehow.

 

[fett51]

I wonder if Anakin actually cares about the distinction. In the PT, he seemed to have trouble with attachment because he was fearful of loss. In CW, he has trouble because he doesn't see why the Jedi should be allowed to tell him who he should be attached to, or why he should care.

It's the difference between a weakling who just wants his mommmmy and a strong, self-confident guy who can't abide obstacles to the fulfillment of his will. The first guy is impossible to synch up with the Vader; the second guy clicks right in like a lego. Maybe a subtle change in how the character is portrayed, but it makes all the difference.

I don't think he understands the distinction. In Ep 3 he's "I LOVE YOU PADME" one minute and spousal abuse the next. I don't think he loves her at all, he's obsessed, has been since he was a kid. If he actually cared about what she wanted he couldn't possibly have concluded she'd think destroying the Jedi, the Republic, wiping out the democracy she loves and killing a bunch of kids along the way would be a good idea. All he cared about was keeping her, like she was a possession. That's certainly domineering enough to be Vader, but it completely belies the notion that he was ever a good person. Just hadn't been put in the right situation to show his true colors.

Oh yeah, that was interesting! Does it refer to dialogue that's been in the show that I've forgotten about, or are we supposed to wonder about it?

Unfortunately haven't seen it. I'm guessing some of it was what he was saying in eps 2 and 3 about someone shutting up all the politicians and getting things done.

If that's the case, they should have let the Republic fall. How valuable is any Republic that can't convince its citizens to defend it? Are the Jedi mindless zombies serving a "Republic" that doesn't deserve their loyalty?

In their view, better than a bunch of even more corrupt corporations being headed up by someone who's a fallen jedi at best, Sith Lord at worst? The idea was that the situation would force them to give up their ideals in order to avoid something catastrophic. That the situation even got that bad represents a massive failing on their part, but apart from Yoda they don't seem to realize it.

I don't think he needed a justification, but it's a good opportunity to improve Anakin's story and allow him to show some smarts by being the first to figure out Palps' game - and to not rat him out, recognizing that if the Republic and the Empire are about the same, why not side with the one that will let you have a wife and children, and keep your power too? In that case, "falling" to the dark side is simply the smart, rational choice.

And then the problem becomes that this has big repercussions for the OT because now Luke, Leia, Han, Chewie and the gang are fighting to return to a Golden Age that was never anything but a pathetic delusion. That's okay, they can keep the story going post-ROTS, right?

They'd have to completely redo RotS for that though, the scene where Anakin finds out Palpatine is a sith makes it pretty clear he had no clue and only the suggestion that the Jedi were the ones who were bad kept him from killing Palpatine on the spot. The OT heroes presumably figure the Republic went wrong when Palpatine got into power back in episode 1 so they'd be looking to restore it to a point before it got this bad.

As for justification, Palpatine didn't need one for himself, but he would've needed to sell the public on mass murdering their heroes. Actually just remembered, in the next episode for you actually, there's a talking billboard of Palpatine in the background that's barely intelligible, but they released what it says on SW.com:

"I have no doubt the Jedi are doing their very best to ensure the safety of every citizen in the Republic. The accusations that the Jedi created the Clone War to give themselves more power over the government is absurd, and I will not stand for it."

Supervising Director Dave Filoni copped to writing that in the episode commentary - but said it was just for the fans who understand the background of the show. Still at least someone over there is thinking about this stuff :P

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I've really started to wonder whether Lucas intended Anakin to be the CW guy all along - he's certainly allowing that characterization now - and the problem was really more bad casting than bad writing.

Maybe I should just try reading the script someday (I'm sure it's online somewhere) and envision CW performing the scenes and speaking the dialogue. There really aren't huge differences between the character in the PT vs CW Anakin

But I do know there wasn't enough effort to depict PT Anakin as a heroic warrior or someone with a sense of humor. A big part of PT problem's are "missing scenes" like that - stuff that we can assume to be true, but don't really "count" unless they get up there on the screen.

It was a genius move to add Ahoska to the story. When I first heard about her, I was pretty lukewarm - I assumed she was just a kid character for the kids in the audience. Watching how Anakin instructs her in the Jedi way - and the way he interacts with her (like a often-bossy big brother rather than a Jedi Master) - is a great way of dramatizing details of his character in a way that fits naturally into the story.

I don't think he understands the distinction. In Ep 3 he's "I LOVE YOU PADME" one minute and spousal abuse the next. I don't think he loves her at all, he's obsessed, has been since he was a kid.

PT Anakin, yeah. That guy is sick in the head. CW Anakin comes off as essentially mentally healthy. But even a healthy person might consider the no-attachment rules to be idiotic, particularly someone who sees himself as so strong and capable that he can just write his own rules. PT Anakin is ruled by fear; CW Anakin is ruled by hubris, but I don't get the same fearful/nutcase vibe from him at all.

That's certainly domineering enough to be Vader, but it completely belies the notion that he was ever a good person.

CW Anakin already been depicted as a good person. He doesn't just love Padme, he's also been shown caring greatly about the safety of Ahsoka, clone troopers and Artoo. Is he possessive about everyone he meets? Where does possessiveness end and obsessive concern about the welfare of others begin? It's creepy for him to get bent out of shape about Padme and not show concern for anyone else, but the more people he shows concern for, the more it seems like there's something else going on besides possessiveness and fear.

And he's been put in the right situation to show his darker side as well, such as beating up Poggle (which the Jedi apparently ignored). CW Anakin is a complicated guy, not the one-note wackjob of the PT.

I'm guessing some of it was what he was saying in eps 2 and 3 about someone shutting up all the politicians and getting things done.

I hope the writers take the opportunity to use some of the Republic's inter-planetary politics to follow up on this. The Republic strikes me as an organization that hangs together in a way that could look very sketchy, depending on your perspective. Let's take Ryloth for example. The "official" representative doesn't seem to have a solid base of local support, and that heroic freedom fighter guy seems to have a lot of support among the Twi'leks, but who does the Republic support? They have to throw in with the status quo, I guess. Someone who is impatient with political maneuvering might look at all the needless wrangling and decide that someone strong should just move in and decide things for the benefit of all. And I'm sure that the situation on Ryloth is far from unique.

But this is another one of those things we need to be shown, not told. If Anakin is disgusted by the Republic, let's see why.

In their view, better than a bunch of even more corrupt corporations being headed up by someone who's a fallen jedi at best, Sith Lord at worst? The idea was that the situation would force them to give up their ideals in order to avoid something catastrophic. That the situation even got that bad represents a massive failing on their part, but apart from Yoda they don't seem to realize it.

Recruit the common folk of the Republic to rise up against the evil corporations and their Sith Lord boss, then. Or at least give it a try. Again, this is one of those things that need to be up there on the screen before they count. At the very least, we needed some acknowledgment from the Jedi that using clones as cannon fodder is a horrible thing, and they plan to stop it just as soon as they can get a real army together.

And when they can't get a real army together, then that does say something about the people they are fighting for - that they deserve to be ruled by evil corporations and their Sith Lord boss! And this would do double-duty as verification that the Republic is corrupt, and would validate Anakin's contempt for it.

Or just toss out the whole clone idea and sub in some other excuse for calling the thing the Clone War. There are a lot of ways to go that don't raise problematic issues that require extensive explaining away by the fans.

They'd have to completely redo RotS for that though, the scene where Anakin finds out Palpatine is a sith makes it pretty clear he had no clue and only the suggestion that the Jedi were the ones who were bad kept him from killing Palpatine on the spot.

Redoing ROTS sounds fine by me. Redoing the whole PT sounds even better. Anakin should be allowed to be smarter, and figure things out before Palps spells it out for him. That's embarrassing. A character should be allowed to be more pro-active in his own story.

The notion that "the Jedi are just as bad as the Sith" was not at all supported by what happened in the PT. The CW is showing more of that detail - Obi-Wan and Mace being willing to torture Cad Bane for information, for example - the movies needed to trot out more scenes like that before I'd believe a smart person would buy Palps' argument. The lack of those scenes made Anakin look gullible and dumb.

The OT heroes presumably figure the Republic went wrong when Palpatine got into power back in episode 1 so they'd be looking to restore it to a point before it got this bad.

I never got the sense that they knew much about the history of the Republic, but the timing in the OT was different -the Jedi and the Force were forgotten legends, etc. That doesn't synch up with it all going wrong a mere 20 years before. Anyway, whatever was wrong with the Republic that allowed Palps into power - an indolent, corrupt population who were indifferent to the maneuverings on Coruscant? - would still apply post-ROTJ, unless the war was so traumatic that everyone realized they better pay closer attention this time or it will all happen all over again.

 

[fett51]

You're certainly right in saying this is a very different portrayal of Anakin, for one I can't recall CW Anakin whining once It's occurred to me too he's doing this to salvage people's perception of Anakin, but that makes me question why he doesn't just special edition the prequels while the actors are still young enough to pull it off. I'd love it if next years blu-ray release contained a more CW-style Anakin, but I think word of that would've gotten out by now. I should probably listen to the prequel commentaries again, I'm sure Lucas had some reasoning behind making Anakin as childish as he was. Oh, I would point out that the Jedi were plotting to overthrow Palpatine if he didn't lay down his power at the end of the war, so it's not as though he was being completely duped.

As far as whether or not Anakin genuinely cares or if he is simply protecting himself from loss, I'd point to some of the things you just brought up. He nearly screwed an entire generation of Jedi kids just to save Ahsoka, but he also nearly got Ahsoka, Rex, and a whole strike team killed to save his droid. That says to me he's willing to risk anything to preserve his attachments, and when his brain kicks into that mode he doesn't care about anything else. I think the barrier between mere attachment and actually caring is you have to care how the other person feels. If he'd thought that way about Padme, he wouldn't have destroyed pretty much everything she cared about to save her, and certainly wouldn't have force-choked her for being disgusted at him for doing it.

But this is another one of those things we need to be shown, not told. If Anakin is disgusted by the Republic, let's see why.

Actually hitting spoiler territory here, suffices to say there's a character coming your way who is VERY frustrated with the Republic, the war, and to some extent the Jedi.

Recruit the common folk of the Republic to rise up against the evil corporations and their Sith Lord boss, then. Or at least give it a try. Again, this is one of those things that need to be up there on the screen before they count. At the very least, we needed some acknowledgment from the Jedi that using clones as cannon fodder is a horrible thing, and they plan to stop it just as soon as they can get a real army together. And when they can't get a real army together, then that does say something about the people they are fighting for - that they deserve to be ruled by evil corporations and their Sith Lord boss!

Well, that's what frustrates me. We haven't gotten ANY comment from the Jedi on the clones. Even when the clone traitor from S1 said the Jedi keep the clones enslaved to Anakin and Obi-wan, they didn't say a thing back to him, nor did Rex or Cody try to set him straight on the topic. For whatever reason they just don't want to go there, despite that they keep humanizing the clones more and more as the show goes on. It doesn't surprise me in the least the people of the Republic would rather throw clones they can dehumanize at the droid armies rather than go themselves, but the Jedi are supposed to be better than that.

I never got the sense that they knew much about the history of the Republic, but the timing in the OT was different -the Jedi and the Force were forgotten legends, etc. That doesn't synch up with it all going wrong a mere 20 years before. Anyway, whatever was wrong with the Republic that allowed Palps into power - an indolent, corrupt population who were indifferent to the maneuverings on Coruscant? - would still apply post-ROTJ, unless the war was so traumatic that everyone realized they better pay closer attention this time or it will all happen all over again.

That's true, for that matter just about every EU source I know of has Palpatine doing his utmost to crush all knowledge of Jedi and the Old Republic. As for how galactic opinion changed during the Rebellion period, we don't really know more than that there was a very small number of rebels given a galactic population. Perhaps Alderaan was a wake-up call to anyone who thought Palpatine was a benevolent despot.

 

[Whofan]

In the post-ROTJ novels, there actually is a lot of concern that the reinstated Republic will once again become an Empire. Luke and Leia, for instance, are regarded with suspicion because of their relationship to Vader (which is made public eventually) despite all they've done.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

why he doesn't just special edition the prequels while the actors are still young enough to pull it off.

Too public an admission of failure? Also, I'm not sure Hayden Christensen has it within his acting ability to perform Anakin as he's been re-characterized, and he doesn't look like CW Anakin anyway, so I suspect that re-casting is in order, which would be a massive change. But since a lot of re-writing (especially dropping extraneous material and adding in the material) is also in order, to do the PT right would require a remake anyway.

I should probably listen to the prequel commentaries again, I'm sure Lucas had some reasoning behind making Anakin as childish as he was.

Probably he was relying too heavily on a "psychological" take on the story - Anakin is petty, childish and dumb, which explains what happened to him. But if you throw the burden on the Jedi and the Republic instead - the Jedi rules are insane, the Republic isn't worth defending - then you can ditch the psychological take and portray Anakin as a mentally healthy guy struggling to adapt to an insane social and political structure.

Since the latter allows Anakin to be heroic, sympathetic and intelligent, it's definitely the better way to go, although it's a radical departure from everything I've assumed about the PT timeframe till now. The most important element in any story is that the audience must sympathize with the main character - if you can't do that, the audience is gone. So making Anakin look good or at least not like a total loser is far more important than making the Jedi and the Republic look good.

He nearly screwed an entire generation of Jedi kids just to save Ahsoka, but he also nearly got Ahsoka, Rex, and a whole strike team killed to save his droid. That says to me he's willing to risk anything to preserve his attachments,

To me, it says he's not attached to any of them as much as he's attached to his need for an adrenaline rush. He'll risk others to save Ahsoka and risk Ahoska to save others, so Ahsoka or the others isn't who he's concerned with at all. What he's really concerned with is getting his next high. Which is yet another divergent characterization for the guy. Does he really care about nobody (good Jedi, no attachments!) and is acting like a drug addict?

That would be a clever characterization because it doesn't make us lose sympathy for Anakin, and you could keep the noble and upstanding characterization of the Jedi and Republic to boot! And if the dark side is a lot like drug addiction, it provides a smooth segue into ROTS. But to tell that story would require a total rewrite of the PT and CW too.

I think the barrier between mere attachment and actually caring is you have to care how the other person feels.

I think the difference is that you get attached to people in your immediately surroundings and depend on them for emotional support. You feel compassion for everyone, even people you've never met, regardless of whether you get emotional support from them. Attachment is natural for all social species; compassion is difficult and not very natural.

Human beings evolved in small groups of individuals and our survival depended on being strongly bound (attached) to our tribe. It also depended sometimes on not being bound (compassionate) to the next tribe over, who we might need to kill because they were encroaching on our hunting grounds. On the assumption that Star Wars species essentially mirror human nature, the Jedi are asking their people to act in opposition to their nature, to feel equally compassionate towards their comrades in arms and the enemy, for instance.

If he'd thought that way about Padme, he wouldn't have destroyed pretty much everything she cared about to save her, and certainly wouldn't have force-choked her for being disgusted at him for doing it.

That's just more silliness from the PT. Anakin can be depicted as being attached to Padme and still be concerned with how she feels about things. The problem with attachment is that it will cause a Jedi to use their immense powers to the benefit of only some people and not everyone, indiscriminately.

That's okay for normal people but not for Jedi, because they are powerful and their powers must be shared "fairly" or else the society at large gets resentful. Attachment will lead to Jedi forming an oligarchy of powerful Force-using families that squelch the rights of lesser mortals. Also, if we assume the dark side will wriggle its way into any ethical crack in a Jedi's armor, even something as seemingly forgivable as treating your allies better than your enemies will expose them to the dark side.

We haven't gotten ANY comment from the Jedi on the clones. Even when the clone traitor from S1 said the Jedi keep the clones enslaved to Anakin and Obi-wan, they didn't say a thing back to him, nor did Rex or Cody try to set him straight on the topic. For whatever reason they just don't want to go there, despite that they keep humanizing the clones more and more as the show goes on. It doesn't surprise me in the least the people of the Republic would rather throw clones they can dehumanize at the droid armies rather than go themselves, but the Jedi are supposed to be better than that.

I'd like to see the Jedi comment on how parallel their own situation is to the clones - of course that leads to them realizing just how unfairly they've been treated, too. They were taken away from their families when they were small children and brainwashed to believe that this imposed lifestyle is the best for them. Anakin shouldn't be the only one rebelling at that.

Actually hitting spoiler territory here, suffices to say there's a character coming your way who is VERY frustrated with the Republic, the war, and to some extent the Jedi.

Cool! Bring him/her/it on!

In the post-ROTJ novels, there actually is a lot of concern that the reinstated Republic will once again become an Empire. Luke and Leia, for instance, are regarded with suspicion because of their relationship to Vader (which is made public eventually) despite all they've done.

That sounds like a reasonable fear, considering everything. And it's being compounded by the CW, which is increasingly pointing to the idea that the Jedi are not the necessary guardians of civic order that I've assumed they are, but rather a dangerously unstable organization that is built around completely untenable rules such as the idea that soldiers in wartime can ever be expected not to develop attachments to their comrades in arms, or that you can take a bunch of healthy young people and utterly squelch their sex drive. It's like the Jedi are asking for trouble.

And the Republic could just be a corrupt and self-serving oligarchy - all we know about it comes from the perspective of those who wield power and of course are going to argue that it's a good thing.

The interesting thing about the OT is that it's not proof that the Jedi and the Republic were ever "good," only that Obi-Wan and Yoda says they are. But they're not exactly objective observers.

 

[Whofan]

Luke's post-ROTJ Jedi order is a bit different, actually-he allows Jedi to form attachments and to marry. I think he bends or breaks several other of the old Jedi codes, but I think part of the reason is that a large chunk of the post-ROTJ novels where Luke trains new Jedi knights were written before the code became a major part of SW lore (In AOTC). So the EU writers only had the OT to fall back on. Heck, there's even those comics that clearly have the conehead Jedi in love and married that had to be retconned!