Humerous plot holes

[Therin of Andor]

I think that was the original plan, but Valkris told him that she'd read the secret info, so he had to kill her in case she passed it on to anyone other than him.

Yep, but it's another holdover from "Return to Genesis", the original film proposal for ST III, which was full of Romulans proud of their honor, ritual suicides and honorable deaths (Balance of Terror", "The Practical Joker"), neutral zones and cloaking devices.

 

[Mr Silver]

Its interesting to note that by TSFS, the makeup designers still hadn't decided what female Klingons were to look like

Sure we had TOS impression, which was similar to the males, heavy makeup, swept eyebrows, etc, but in TSTS we see Valkris with only the beginnings of cranial ridges, the idea was once again modified for TNG Season 1, to put the Female Klingons on par with their male counterparts

 

[Timo]

I've wondered about the "off-limits" Genesis planet and the lack of obvious ships protecting it. It could be the Feds assigned all their ships to the neutral zones and were overconfident that no one would be able to sneak past them to go take a look. Of course Kruge snuck past them

No wonder, as he was flying an invisible ship - something of a novelty to Starfleet strategic thinking, because apparently the idea of invisibility had been considered "theoretical" only two decades prior!

Certainly Starfleet wouldn't normally operate under the premise that UFP space was teeming with enemy warships. Even if this were what was factually happening, admitting to it would be suicidal in every respect...

Really, if the UFP really wanted to keep this hot-potato planet "off limits", it might well have to compromise and declare the place off limits to Starfleet as well. Physically, it might be impossible to maintain a quarantine, no matter how many warships were dispatched - but a quarantine would gain in political and moral power if the government itself set an example.

Yep, but it's another holdover from "Return to Genesis", the original film proposal for ST III, which was full of Romulans proud of their honor, ritual suicides and honorable deaths (Balance of Terror", "The Practical Joker"), neutral zones and cloaking devices.

...Of course, Klingons also had demonstrated this sort of conduct all through TOS, including strictly and honorably adhering to the Organian treaty (as Kang boasts in "Day of the Dove"), severing ties to their exposed operatives at the drop of a tribble (as Koloth so easily does in "Trouble with Tribbles"), showing militarily impractical and downright treasonous courtesy to the enemy (as Kor does, smiling through "Errand of Mercy"), and backstabbing in the best Romulan tradition (as in "Time Trap" et al.).

Even Klingon cloaking was sort of suggested in "Errand of Mercy" already, with an inferior Klingon ship getting the drop on the high-alert-status Enterprise. ST3 only confirmed that Klingon cloaking was old news to Kirk, and ENT rode on that wave of retroactive but smooth continuity.

Killing Valkris certainly made sense for Kruge, who was operating behind enemy lines and could not afford quarter the way Kor, in command of his very own planet, could. That was classic merchant raider skipper behavior from WWI or WWII, too, be it the skipper of an U-boat or a camouflaged surface raider.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Jerikka Dawn]

While Kirk and Crew's theft of the Enterprise in TSFS is some of the best 10 and a half minutes of Star Trek ever, I thought the whole idea of them having to steal the Enterprise was humorous.

If I were Kirk, the first thing I would have said to Morrow was "Don't you know who the f*** I am?" Additionally, as was said earlier in this thread, Sarek could have just phoned up Starfleet and said "Ya listen, I need the Enterprise and her crew for a mission. K'tnx. Bye."

I wouldn't give up what we got though. Kirk and Sulu busting McCoy out, Uhura beaming them to the Enterprise, the building tension in the music as Enterprise approaches the space doors (and Scotty trying to get them open), and the look of relief on Scotty's face as Sulu pronounces "We have cleared Space Doors."

Awesome stuff.

 

[KarmicCurse]

Why didn't Enterprise just destroy Reliant quickly before Genesis detonated instead of limping away from it?

 

[Timo]

I'd guess any explosion big enough to ensure the destruction of the Genesis device would also destroy the Enterprise, unless she limped away to a safe distance first...

That's assuming that one can even destroy a primed Genesis device. Perhaps firing at one will only make it detonate? David Marcus would probably have suggested firing at the device if he thought it would help. Since he didn't, and since his dad accepted him as the foremost expert on the device, there was no firing.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Excelsior was reliant on its computer and didn't have the 'emergency bypass options' that Scotty would normally put in place on his ships.

Wouldn't that be pretty much standard on all ships? After all they have Main Power, Auxiliary Power and Emergency Batteries, why not the same with the computer?

-Bry

 

[Mr Silver]

I always thought the whole "Protomatter" concept was a tad absurd...sure they needed a fictional compound to add dramatic icing to the storyline, but there was never any real functionality to it, except that apparently the compound was unstable and led to the Genesis Planet destroying itself...

Yet in the Genesis Wave series (not my favourite series of books, but nonethless) its determined that Genesis would have worked, had the device been test detonated on the surface of a lifeless space body...

Protomatter reminds me a lot of Trilithium, another "Doomsday" compound, however unlike Protomatter, Trilithium's purpose is clearly explained, it haults Nuclear Reactions within a Star, thus the Star collapses and a shockwave comparable to the Genesis Wave storms through a Solar System, laying waste to everything in its path...now surely if Trilithium halted all Nuclear Fission within a Star...then surely there would be no Shockwave? The Star would just go out and perhaps if theres any solid matter (unlikely) lurking in the Star, that as well would just fall into Space

In trying to figure out what Protomatter actually does, I've concluded that its an "Accelerant", kind of like putting Petrol (or Gas) on a fire, the Protomatter, accelerated the development of the Genesis Matrix...however as an unstable substance, the compound was prone to react (similar to how metals like "Caesium" with water) to certain anomalies (Nebula Gasses?) and eventually would become unstable, thus taking prety much everything else with it

 

[Leathco]

I like how after the final detonation of Genesis, that was it. No one ever mentioned it again. Even if it did fail as a terraforming system, it would make for an awesomely powerful weapon. The explosion radius of the device alone shows that. Than if it got through shielding, it'd automatically transmute the matter the ship was made of and in the ship to whatever it was programmed for. Why was this never explored (outside the noncanon Genesis Wave books)

 

[Mr Silver]

I like how after the final detonation of Genesis, that was it. No one ever mentioned it again. Even if it did fail as a terraforming system, it would make for an awesomely powerful weapon. The explosion radius of the device alone shows that. Than if it got through shielding, it'd automatically transmute the matter the ship was made of and in the ship to whatever it was programmed for. Why was this never explored (outside the noncanon Genesis Wave books)

Probably the same reasons why the Ent-E and the Connie Refit never appeared in any of the Live Action tv shows, it was a movie only attraction

It doesn't really make much sense tbh, In VOY Janeway briefly mentions Carol Marcus and The Genesis Experiment in passing, also an entire episode of DS9 revolves around the concept of Terraforming, given that the Genesis Project was the first major undertaking of Terraforming on a Planetary Level, its a wonder why it was never mentioned again

It would have been cool for TNG to revisit the Genesis Storyline in perhaps a two parter, perhaps Captain Picard and co were to visit the Mutara Section and discover something disturbing, perhaps the Genesis Planet has begun to regenerate itself and this causes an Interstellar Conflict, when its realised that the Planet holds the key to developing a deadly weapon, similar to how the Genesis Device could be just as easily used to Destroy as to Create

Nevertheless it would have been nice to see Bibi Besch again in Trek, I thought her performance as Carol Marcus in TWOK was one of the highlights and her and William Shatner had a lot of chemistry

 

[JarodRussell]

While Kirk and Crew's theft of the Enterprise in TSFS is some of the best 10 and a half minutes of Star Trek ever, I thought the whole idea of them having to steal the Enterprise was humorous.

If I were Kirk, the first thing I would have said to Morrow was "Don't you know who the f*** I am?" Additionally, as was said earlier in this thread, Sarek could have just phoned up Starfleet and said "Ya listen, I need the Enterprise and her crew for a mission. K'tnx. Bye."

According to Star Trek 2009 logic maybe. But not back then, when Kirk being an admiral who saved Earth means shit to bureaucrazy, just like it would in real life. And Sarek is just an ambassador. He can't just tell Starfleet "give me one of your ships".

 

[BillJ]

While Kirk and Crew's theft of the Enterprise in TSFS is some of the best 10 and a half minutes of Star Trek ever, I thought the whole idea of them having to steal the Enterprise was humorous.

If I were Kirk, the first thing I would have said to Morrow was "Don't you know who the f*** I am?" Additionally, as was said earlier in this thread, Sarek could have just phoned up Starfleet and said "Ya listen, I need the Enterprise and her crew for a mission. K'tnx. Bye."

According to Star Trek 2009 logic maybe. But not back then, when Kirk being an admiral who saved Earth means shit to bureaucrazy, just like it would in real life. And Sarek is just an ambassador. He can't just tell Starfleet "give me one of your ships".

Sarek just needed to dial then hand the phone to T'Pau.

 

[Timo]

Sarek did manage to shelter the fugitives for several months against the obvious Starfleet wish to have them detained. Although the heroes being at home arrest in the Sarek mansion or whatnot should probably have satisfied Kirk's superiors...

(Is Mount Seleya anywhere near Sarek's ancestral grounds at Shi(r)'Kahr, btw? TV/Movie continuity is ambiguous on that, but is there a consensus in the novels or something? And do we perhaps still see landscape indicative of Mount Seleya in ST4, or is the spaceport where the Bounty sits possibly somewhere else on Vulcan?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Silver]

Its not really fair to relate Federation Ambassadors to RL ones...

Federation Ambassadors work on an Interstellar Scale, they are well known throughout the Federation because they represent entire planets, not just countries. Sarek is an even more special case, his Diplomatic Accomplishments are numerous, he's been at the forefront of nearly every major Federation Diplomatic Campaign from the 23rd Century to the late 24th, its safe to assume that because of his reputation he pulls a lot of political weight and its likely he was responsible for granting Kirk and co protection from being extradited, after all he owes them two massive favours (McCoy saved his life in "Journey To Babel" and of course they rescued Spock and returned him to Vulcan at the cost of the Enterprise, Kirk's Son and of course their Careers)

 

[BillJ]

Its not really fair to relate Federation Ambassadors to RL ones...

They haven't given us a reason not to.

 

[Timo]

"Journey to Babel" does hinge on Ambassadors acting out the role of, say, Senators on behalf of the supposedly unified political entity United Federation of Planets. That is, they are the local representatives who'll jointly investigate and then make recommendations, perhaps vote on an issue; even if the UFP is to be interpreted as a United Nations analogue, it would be quite atypical for Ambassadors from different nations to be cast in that role.

(One wonders what the "Vulcan Ambassador" Sarek was the ambassador to, for or from. Was Vulcan perhaps standing outside the UFP at the time of TOS and the movies? Were Vulcans the intellectual puppets of the Federation, instead of being the intellectual puppets from the Federation?)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tulin]

i think your post has some pot holes of its own

Tell me about it!

For the LIFE OF ME, I NEVER understand why people don't re-read their posts and edit them when they see mistakes. Maybe it's the writer in me, needing to see his own work in some kind of print form but I ENJOY reading my own words.

God knows they're a sight better than most others!

 

[kobeyashi maru]

A thread devoted to all the Trek movie plot holes, and you guys pick on TSFS? I mean sure, your points are all valid, and there's plenty more holes in the film ("Katra"? WTF?). But that script is positively airtight when you compare it to ANY of the TNG films!

I mean, Christ! Just look at Generations! Picard's in the Nexus, and he can go to any point in history to stop Soren. He can go back to Ten Forward, when he met the guy, and slap handcuffs on him. He can go back to the Enterprise-B and shoot him out an airlock or something. Shit, he can go to the moment of his conception and just tell his dad to pull out! Hell, the mere act of Picard materializing in the bedroom would probably have that effect anyway!

And don't even get me started on the other movies!

(And BTW, I'm not trying to start a "TNG is inferior to TOS" flame war, just being objective here. For instance, I love First Contact, but that film's plot makes no sense either!)

 

[Timo]

Picard's in the Nexus, and he can go to any point in history to stop Soren.

But he has a more limited set of options if he also wants to stop two Krazy Klingon Khicks from using a starkiller weapon against their enemies. He may go so far back that he can catch Soran before he delivers the weapon (but he has zero idea when and where and how that happened), or he can choose the moment when said Klingons are under the guard of Starfleet's heaviest guns.

Now, Picard might go back more than once, for all we know. He could save his brother and nephew from the fire, he could stop the Borg, he could do all sorts of stuff. But if he only has one shot at it, he probably would do what he did - stop the stars of the UFP from being blown up.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kobeyashi maru]

^Sure, but those Klingon Khicks wouldn't even have a star exploder if Soren weren't there to invent one, right? (Did Soren invent that rocket? I don't remember the film that well.)

Anywho, let's talk Final Frontier plot holes. So Sybok goes to Nimbus III to hold the Federation, Klingon and Romulan abassadors hostage, in the hopes that at least one of their respective governments will send a rescue ship, which he can then hijack to fly into the Great Barrier. He needs to do this because there are no starships on Nimbus III.

Which begs the question: HOW THE HELL DID SYBOK GET TO NIMBUS III??????????

Surely, he didn't just walk there! I mean, that would be pretty hard to do in space, right?

Maybe Sybok got there by stowing away on some garbage scow that happened to be passing by or something. Why didn't he brainwash--I mean "cleanse the pain"--of that crew and have them fly him through the barrier?

Even if we assume that the only reason the Enterprise and Klaa's random Bird of Prey made it through the Barrier with less turbulence than a 707 through a light jetstream is because those are the greatest, most advanced ships in their respective fleets, Sybok's plan was still pretty much the stupidest thing ever. Let's go back to this theoretical garbage scow. So Sybok's got his own ship now, but it's a piece of crap that'll never make it through the barrier. So the next logical step is to go to Nimbus and concoct a convoluted plan with a slim chance of delivering a decent starship into his hands, right?

WRONG! Why not take the garbage scow to a starbase, a well-traveled shipping lane, heck anywhere in the Federation where you're likely to come across some starships? Then commandeer one of those ships (if the actual movie is any indication, that should be easy enough) and fly IT through the Barrier!

Also, we see Caitlin Dar arrive on Nimbus. So what ship brought HER there? Why didn't Sybok hijack that? He was already pointlessly stranded on Nimbus at the time, roaming around recruiting an army. Surely he would have heard through the grapevine that the Romulans were due to deliver a new ambassador, and could have set up a plan to get onto that ship!

Whatever.