Yeah it does and we know how that turned out
Romulan Shenanigans
- Thread starter Photon
- Start date
Yeah it does and we know how that turned out
Actually, there weren't any, if what you mean is "Enterprise vs. Romulan ship." The closest they ever got to an actual battle was in "The Defector", when a warbird fired a few shots, though it was only to get their attention. A real battle was averted when the Ent-D's Klingon backup decloaked.
Though that scene also provides evidence that a warbird is at least a decent match against a Galaxy, since - with two warbirds dropping in on the Ent-D and firing (but with the Ent-D's shields still up), Picard comments that the attack was "just a tap on the shoulder, or else we wouldn't be here talking about it." Now, he might have been exaggerating a bit (the warbirds probably couldn't completely obliterate the ship that quickly), but he wouldn't make such a comment if a single warbird weren't at least a decent match against his ship.
That ended up being something of a massacre for the Feds, didn't it.
Of course, the Prometheus played a role; the Romulans weren't expecting it to suddenly jump into the fray against them and activate that ridiculous Voltron mode. Still, I find it interesting that the other three Starfleet ships - an Akira and two Defiants - charged in firing, no holds barred and no questions asked. Granted, we do not have any way of knowing for sure how the battle would have gone had the holo Docs not managed to get the Prometheus moving, but the other Starfleet attackers didn't look like they had any doubts that they had a good shot at winning the day. Perhaps by the time of "Message in a Bottle" Fed military tech had advanced relative to Romulan military tech.I've aways considered the idea that the Warbirds are weak as something of a Star Trek TNG meme. There really is no evidence for it, They only every fell to exp warships like the Promethious, the Cardassian defence grid, Breen energy draining weapons and Tin Man. The only straight up fight was in Message in a Bottle and they took on Defiants,an Akira and the Promethious. I would consider those ships to be one generation beyond the Warbirds. (Warbird belongs to the Nebula and Galaxy class tech level I believe).
In fact I believe in Tin Man, the first Warbird decloaks and significantly damages the Enterprises shields on its one flyby to meet Tin Man. (This is before Tin Man badly damages the Enterprise and destroys the warbird later).
It performed exactly as how you would expect it to do, striking from cloak using all its firepower concentrated in its "head"
Here is a piece from the script of the episode
PICARD
Go to Red Alert -- shields at
maximum.
------------------------------------------------------------------
PICARD
Damage report.
WORF
No casualties reported. Seventy
percent loss to main shields, sir.
And later:
GEORDI
Captain, I'm trying to feed the
inner grid by stealing some power
from the structural integrity
field. You should have partial
shielding in thirty minutes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That was from one flyby. Pretty good I would think.
In fact I believe in Tin Man, the first Warbird decloaks and significantly damages the Enterprises shields on its one flyby to meet Tin Man. (This is before Tin Man badly damages the Enterprise and destroys the warbird later).
It performed exactly as how you would expect it to do, striking from cloak using all its firepower concentrated in its "head"
Here is a piece from the script of the episode
PICARD
Go to Red Alert -- shields at
maximum.
------------------------------------------------------------------
PICARD
Damage report.
WORF
No casualties reported. Seventy
percent loss to main shields, sir.
And later:
GEORDI
Captain, I'm trying to feed the
inner grid by stealing some power
from the structural integrity
field. You should have partial
shielding in thirty minutes.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
That was from one flyby. Pretty good I would think.
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"Winning" might be fairly irrelevant. Just having the war might mean ruination of the UFP, regardless of whether they won or lost. That's the reason North Korea is a credible foe to the much more heavily armed United States: defeating North Korea would be a trivial exercise in the military sense, but it would result in the US losing in every respect that counts.
Timo Saloniemi
The were Tal Shiar 'birds. These (probably) had some serious upgrades
Actually, there weren't any, if what you mean is "Enterprise vs. Romulan ship." The closest they ever got to an actual battle was in "The Defector", when a warbird fired a few shots, though it was only to get their attention. A real battle was averted when the Ent-D's Klingon backup decloaked.
Though that scene also provides evidence that a warbird is at least a decent match against a Galaxy, since - with two warbirds dropping in on the Ent-D and firing (but with the Ent-D's shields still up), Picard comments that the attack was "just a tap on the shoulder, or else we wouldn't be here talking about it." Now, he might have been exaggerating a bit (the warbirds probably couldn't completely obliterate the ship that quickly), but he wouldn't make such a comment if a single warbird weren't at least a decent match against his ship.
That ended up being something of a massacre for the Feds, didn't it.
The Obsidian Order was forbidden from having ships of its own. Since the Tal'Shiar was not similarly limited, they might not have been interested in defying any bans, either, and might never have built ships of their own. For all we know, Tal'Shiar only rides aboard regular Romulan ships, much as in "The Die is Cast" where the characteristic double sash uniform was apparently only worn by "Col. Lovok" himself.
Timo Saloniemi
Timo Saloniemi
The were Tal Shiar 'birds. These (probably) had some serious upgrades
Actually, there weren't any, if what you mean is "Enterprise vs. Romulan ship." The closest they ever got to an actual battle was in "The Defector", when a warbird fired a few shots, though it was only to get their attention. A real battle was averted when the Ent-D's Klingon backup decloaked.
Though that scene also provides evidence that a warbird is at least a decent match against a Galaxy, since - with two warbirds dropping in on the Ent-D and firing (but with the Ent-D's shields still up), Picard comments that the attack was "just a tap on the shoulder, or else we wouldn't be here talking about it." Now, he might have been exaggerating a bit (the warbirds probably couldn't completely obliterate the ship that quickly), but he wouldn't make such a comment if a single warbird weren't at least a decent match against his ship.
That ended up being something of a massacre for the Feds, didn't it.
There is absolutedly NO proof whatsover that those Warbirds have been upgraded beyond the Romulan Military Standard. We have no basis from which to compare. And as I said, the Warbird class itself seems to be from a class history before the Fed ships used in the final battle scene in the episode. Its from the same era as the Galaxy/Nebula, and one Nebula was easily disabled by the Promethious early on in that episode. The apt comparison as regards tech level, is the Defiants/Promethous/Akira class to the Valdore class, not the D'Deridex class. Its apples and oranges.
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Yep the same Defiant that had a shootout w/the uber-Lakota and almost lost.
Many have said the Defiant couldn't hold a candle to the Galaxy class b/c of the Galaxy's more powerful phases that could keep a smaller, more maneuverable ship at distance.
Well it seems as if many people are knocking the Warbird(and the Romulans Military capability in general) for some reason. I've assumed that since we saw it in the TNG years, the Warbird must have been around at the same tech level as the Nebula/Galaxies. Perhaps slighter better in the Warbird firepower/Galaxy shield stakes as shown by its performance in the flyby in Tin Man. And slower than the Galaxy/Nebula as shown in that episode too.
So maybe your right, the tech difference is not so great btween the Defiant/Akira and the Galaxy/Warbird. But its very reasonable to say that its the Promethious which is the next tech level beyound the Warbird. It was the Promethous which both knocked out the Nebula and destroyed the Warbird in the episode.
So maybe your right, the tech difference is not so great btween the Defiant/Akira and the Galaxy/Warbird. But its very reasonable to say that its the Promethious which is the next tech level beyound the Warbird. It was the Promethous which both knocked out the Nebula and destroyed the Warbird in the episode.
I agree w/you on that. The battle in MIB was a stand off, until the two idiots activated the Prommy's weapons and then split up, then it was down hill for the Romulans.
Also, if you noticed the other Romulans ships ran like scalded dogs after one was destroyed.
"Apples and oranges" is much too extreme if you ask me. I see your point, but I think that's far overstating it, considering the rate and type of military tech advancements that go on in Trek.
I think it is being overstated, but more important than that, I think that the capacity of a ship class to be upgraded is also being lost here.
This is a good exampled of what I mean. The Excelsior class was introduced in TSFS, and yet it was still a viable front-line starship almost a century later. Maybe not top of the line, but still viable. And one ship of that class was able to be upgraded to the point where it WAS just about top of the line (the aforementioned Lakota). This implies an ability to "stretch" a design FAR beyond what we can do today, by swapping out older components with newer ones and overhauling systems periodically. There would be an upper limit to this; a given class couldn't just be upgraded to be current forever, or they would never need to build new classes, but my point is that clearly, starship designs can be stretched to remain current and viable far longer than most real vehicles can. So, those warbirds may have been so upgraded; fighting a D'deridex from 2374 wouldn't be the same as fighting one from 2364. They wouldn't neccesarily outpreform newer designs, but wouldn't just be "outdated" either.
Eep, I forgot about "Tin Man." Ok, so my earlier statement must be amended: the closest they ever got to a real battle was in "The Defector", AND in "Tin Man."
Still, my point that there was never a knock-down drag-out between the Ent-D and a warbird remains true. And I'm certainly not knocking the warbird, or Romulan military capability! I'd say that a war between the Feds and the Romulans could go either way, and I do think that the warbird may even have a raw firepower edge over the Galaxy (at least, during TNG; who knows how later iterations of both ships - such as during the Dominion war - would compare).
I try to ignore the Voltron ship as much as I can... I always chalk both the disabling of the Nebula and the destruction of the D'deridex to being totally unprepared for an attack from multiple directions (and, in the latter case, to already having been weakened from fighting the other Starfleet ships). Still, giving much credit to the design of the Prometheus, and the "multi-vector assault mode", is a pretty big stretch to me.
Well, at that point, the remaining Romulan ships were outnumbered two to one. So it's kind of understandable, heh.
"Apples and oranges" is much too extreme if you ask me. I see your point, but I think that's far overstating it, considering the rate and type of military tech advancements that go on in Trek.
I think it is being overstated, but more important than that, I think that the capacity of a ship class to be upgraded is also being lost here.
This is a good exampled of what I mean. The Excelsior class was introduced in TSFS, and yet it was still a viable front-line starship almost a century later. Maybe not top of the line, but still viable. And one ship of that class was able to be upgraded to the point where it WAS just about top of the line (the aforementioned Lakota). This implies an ability to "stretch" a design FAR beyond what we can do today, by swapping out older components with newer ones and overhauling systems periodically. There would be an upper limit to this; a given class couldn't just be upgraded to be current forever, or they would never need to build new classes, but my point is that clearly, starship designs can be stretched to remain current and viable far longer than most real vehicles can. So, those warbirds may have been so upgraded; fighting a D'deridex from 2374 wouldn't be the same as fighting one from 2364. They wouldn't neccesarily outpreform newer designs, but wouldn't just be "outdated" either.
Eep, I forgot about "Tin Man." Ok, so my earlier statement must be amended: the closest they ever got to a real battle was in "The Defector", AND in "Tin Man."
And I'm certainly not knocking the warbird, or Romulan military capability! I'd say that a war between the Feds and the Romulans could go either way, and I do think that the warbird may even have a raw firepower edge over the Galaxy (at least, during TNG; who knows how later iterations of both ships - such as during the Dominion war - would compare).
I try to ignore the Voltron ship as much as I can... I always chalk both the disabling of the Nebula and the destruction of the D'deridex to being totally unprepared for an attack from multiple directions (and, in the latter case, to already having been weakened from fighting the other Starfleet ships). Still, giving much credit to the design of the Prometheus, and the "multi-vector assault mode", is a pretty big stretch to me.
Well, at that point, the remaining Romulan ships were outnumbered two to one. So it's kind of understandable, heh.
I've always wanted to see the Defiant take on a Warbird.
