Watching "In the Flesh" after a decade

[Guy Gardener]

I'd call them predictable. but then being murdered in a predictable way is still scary and orgasms are predictable but people still want nine of there pleasure spasms a day...

The Borg were.

Are?

Whatever.

They "maintained".

They were one dimensional.

It's the same with attacking Russia in Winter.

The conclusion is predictable.

Global warming must be scaring the bejeesus out of the Russians.

 

[Anwar]

I'd call them predictable. but then being murdered in a predictable way is still scary and orgasms are predictable but people still want nine of there pleasure spasms a day...

Well, you can only be murdered once...

 

[Guy Gardener]

You and Me sure, but these buggers die all the time.

BOOM!

Dead, and then the timeline resets or Seven pumps someone full of nanoprobes...

The Crew believed they each died thousands of times during the killing game not that their memories weren't wiped after the fact every-time they lost the killing game?

 

[Anwar]

Well, seeing how they didn't remember being killed by the time "Killing Game" started I'd say the Hirogen wiped their memories every time and they only remembered the last game clearly. Or maybe not, I haven't seen KG in a while.

 

[RyuRoots]

Who decided that the Borg are boring?

Whenever they show up, it's always that usual Big Voice saying "Resistance is futile" over and over and over. And TNG established that the Borg are vastly faster so you can't run from them, and they become invulnerable to your weaponry after one or two shots (and those one/two shots are never enough to destroy a Borg ship) meaning you can't destroy them without a plot contrivance.

So, to wit, you have an enemy that you can never have interesting interactions with since it's always just that same Voice saying the same thing over and over, you can't beat them with weapons, and you can't run or hide successfully since the Borg never lose interest and just leave after a while.

They also outnumber you 100:1.

All in all, you've created a Boring Invincible Enemy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain?from=Main.BoringInvincibleVillain), or a Villain Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue). Neither of which are something you keep around.

Plus, for anyone who says "Just think outside the box", TNG already exhausted that. Hack into the Collective mind and trigger some plot contrivance? They did that in BOBW meaning you can never do something like that again. Use a natural phenomenon like a Solar Flare? TNG did that too meaning you can't use THAT again either, like teleporting them into a Black Hole.

All together, VERY boring enemy. Just kill them in some fashion, be rid of them, learn the lesson of how NOT to make an adversary from them and apply that to any future foes.

In otherwords, exactly like Saito S said; Anwar decided they're boring, that's about it.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well, seeing how they didn't remember being killed by the time "Killing Game" started I'd say the Hirogen wiped their memories every time and they only remembered the last game clearly. Or maybe not, I haven't seen KG in a while.

After a couple of them turned up pregnant or discovered that they had unconsensual abortions or contracted some hirogen STD, a line would queue to discover quickmarch exactly every thing they got up to during the Month the Hirogen ruled the roost.

Given the choice, are these the sort of people that would chose to live in ignorance, considering some of Voyagers crew was killed (for real) during the game, that there's every chance that the killing was human on human for Hirogen Kicks?

 

[Anwar]

Who decided that the Borg are boring?

Whenever they show up, it's always that usual Big Voice saying "Resistance is futile" over and over and over. And TNG established that the Borg are vastly faster so you can't run from them, and they become invulnerable to your weaponry after one or two shots (and those one/two shots are never enough to destroy a Borg ship) meaning you can't destroy them without a plot contrivance.

So, to wit, you have an enemy that you can never have interesting interactions with since it's always just that same Voice saying the same thing over and over, you can't beat them with weapons, and you can't run or hide successfully since the Borg never lose interest and just leave after a while.

They also outnumber you 100:1.

All in all, you've created a Boring Invincible Enemy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain?from=Main.BoringInvincibleVillain), or a Villain Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue). Neither of which are something you keep around.

Plus, for anyone who says "Just think outside the box", TNG already exhausted that. Hack into the Collective mind and trigger some plot contrivance? They did that in BOBW meaning you can never do something like that again. Use a natural phenomenon like a Solar Flare? TNG did that too meaning you can't use THAT again either, like teleporting them into a Black Hole.

All together, VERY boring enemy. Just kill them in some fashion, be rid of them, learn the lesson of how NOT to make an adversary from them and apply that to any future foes.

In otherwords, exactly like Saito S said; Anwar decided they're boring, that's about it.

Explain to me how all that stuff does NOT equal a boring invincible villain. TNG used up all possible defensive measures or offensive measures, and should have been responsible enough to just kill them all and save future Trek the grief of having to come up with more bizarre ways of dealing with them. They got all that they could get out of them by the time TNG ended, leaving VOY with nothing to work with that wouldn't just cause more problems down the line (Species 8472).

 

[Anwar]

Well, seeing how they didn't remember being killed by the time "Killing Game" started I'd say the Hirogen wiped their memories every time and they only remembered the last game clearly. Or maybe not, I haven't seen KG in a while.

After a couple of them turned up pregnant or discovered that they had unconsensual abortions or contracted some hirogen STD, a line would queue to discover quickmarch exactly every thing they got up to during the Month the Hirogen ruled the roost.

Given the choice, are these the sort of people that would chose to live in ignorance, considering some of Voyagers crew was killed (for real) during the game, that there's every chance that the killing was human on human for Hirogen Kicks?

They'd probably decide for their personal morale that the Hirogen killed all those folk and it's better off not being remembered. Who'd WANT to remember being brainwashed repeatedly in war scenarios when you can just forget?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I would like to remind you about the episodes Retrospect, Remember, Memorial, Latent Image, Workforce and Nemesis.

Who you are is totally about what you have done.

No memory no crime, and they could have just wiped a couple years off the Equinox 5's personal history and they would have been golden.

 

[RyuRoots]

Whenever they show up, it's always that usual Big Voice saying "Resistance is futile" over and over and over. And TNG established that the Borg are vastly faster so you can't run from them, and they become invulnerable to your weaponry after one or two shots (and those one/two shots are never enough to destroy a Borg ship) meaning you can't destroy them without a plot contrivance.

So, to wit, you have an enemy that you can never have interesting interactions with since it's always just that same Voice saying the same thing over and over, you can't beat them with weapons, and you can't run or hide successfully since the Borg never lose interest and just leave after a while.

They also outnumber you 100:1.

All in all, you've created a Boring Invincible Enemy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain?from=Main.BoringInvincibleVillain), or a Villain Sue (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/VillainSue). Neither of which are something you keep around.

Plus, for anyone who says "Just think outside the box", TNG already exhausted that. Hack into the Collective mind and trigger some plot contrivance? They did that in BOBW meaning you can never do something like that again. Use a natural phenomenon like a Solar Flare? TNG did that too meaning you can't use THAT again either, like teleporting them into a Black Hole.

All together, VERY boring enemy. Just kill them in some fashion, be rid of them, learn the lesson of how NOT to make an adversary from them and apply that to any future foes.

In otherwords, exactly like Saito S said; Anwar decided they're boring, that's about it.

Explain to me how all that stuff does NOT equal a boring invincible villain.

Gladly. It's pretty simple, actually: I disagree with your assessment and don't find them boring.

 

[Anwar]

Well, alright. But it's rather telling that there are no other Hive Mind type foes in other sci-fi shows. Why? Because they all realize that such things, especially when overpowered, are just boring. Even guys who are nominally a Hive Mind aren't, because they still have individual members.

 

[RyuRoots]

Well, alright. But it's rather telling that there are no other Hive Mind type foes in other sci-fi shows. Why? Because they all realize that such things, especially when overpowered, are just boring.

That's your opinion, Anwar. Not a fact.

 

[Saito S]

In otherwords, exactly like Saito S said; Anwar decided they're boring, that's about it.

Explain to me how all that stuff does NOT equal a boring invincible villain.

Gladly. It's pretty simple, actually: I disagree with your assessment and don't find them boring.

This.

Also, I'm not going to waste time trying to "prove" a negative ("Explain how all that stuff does not..."), and a negative that's completely subjective opinion to boot. I don't think the Borg are boring because when they were in a Trek story, I found it entertaining, when it was done well. Were they problem-free? No. They did need to be handled with a bit more care than your garden variety villain in order to remain interesting, and I do think that using them over and over can lead to degradation.

Plus, for anyone who says "Just think outside the box", TNG already exhausted that.

and

TNG used up all possible defensive measures or offensive measures,

The notion that a TV show could "use up" all possible manner of fictional defensive and offensive measures against a fictional enemy is preposterous. You cannot "exhaust" all of the out-of-the-box ideas for a given concept. Again, there aren't a finite number of ideas. They're IDEAS! And the entire nature of what is suggested by the term "think out of the box" implies reaching beyond the conventional. You cannot RUN OUT of that.

and should have been responsible enough to just kill them all and save future Trek the grief of having to come up with more bizarre ways of dealing with them.

Once again, choosing not to utterly eliminate a threat at the end of a TV show (or book, or whatever) is not automatically "irresponsible."

They got all that they could get out of them by the time TNG ended,

Not at all. Not even close.

leaving VOY with nothing to work with that wouldn't just cause more problems down the line (Species 8472).

Rubbish. Creating 8472 wasn't "the only option" available to them. The VOY writers and producers made CHOICES, they weren't boxed in. They also didn't have to use the Borg SO MANY TIMES in the first place; that too was a choice, and a bad one.

 

[Anwar]

There are only so many things you can fight the Borg with. You can't use conventional weaponry at all, TNG already did the "Hack into the Collective" plot contrivance (meaning no "Hack the Collective" plot can ever be done again) and also used the "Use natural phenomena" tactic too (meaning no natural phenomena, like a black hole or an energy storm, can ever be used either).

So, you can't use weapons, you can't hack into their Collective so using some kind of telepathic attack is also not on the table, you can't use natural phenomena, inventing new weapons falls under the "conventional weapons" umbrella, you can't run from them, and you can't invent a new enemy to fight the Borg (they tried that with 8472 and look what happened). That last one also means you can't find some leftover superweapon left behind by some extinct race to use as a weapon against the Borg since that counts as "new race" technically.

So, without any of that, there isn't much to do with the Borg aside from find some way of negotiating with them (Guinan said this was possible but everyone forgot) and the audience would never accept it. So either just kill them all, or just lower their threat level to make them easier to use. Because "just don't use them much" isn't an option because they had to be dealt with sooner or later. They can't be left alone like the Klingons or Romulans.

And like I said, there aren't any other Hive Mind antagonists in other fictional shows. Why? Because those other guys also realized how boring an enemy like that is. Even the probably inspiration for the Borg: The Cybermen aren't a Hive Mind like them because each one retains its individuality while their overall loyalty is now to the Cybermen. Why Because the Doctor Who writers knew what a boring entity a big Hive Mind would be.

 

[Guy Gardener]

natural stuff like black wholes can still work.

The Borg can know how to defend themselves from an attack without having the technology or resources to implement that defence and lets not forget that there's some sort of time limit and probably regional restrictions too... the Borg can defend themselves against a billion threats but each defence clogs up their cpu run speeds, over all reactions and plainly over eggs the pudding, but just because X can do Y to the Borg in the AQ they're not going to defend against Y from Z in the DQ if there's no evidence that Z can also do Y... And honestly after a hundred years is there any point in still defending against y even in the AQ when the folkes form the AQ have declared such technology redundant, moved on and forgotten about Y because it worked once for about 5 minutes for their grand parents?

 

[Anwar]

Using a Black Hole would be using a natural phenomena. They already used one (The Sun) in "Descent" to destroy a Borg Cruiser, meaning if they DID use a Black Hole the audience would just say it's a rip-off of "Descent" in that it's a natural phenomena.

What I mean is, once you even use a CONCEPT against them then that concept and everything that could be derived from it is useless.

 

[JarodRussell]

Using a Black Hole would be using a natural phenomena. They already used one (The Sun) in "Descent" to destroy a Borg Cruiser, meaning if they DID use a Black Hole the audience would just say it's a rip-off of "Descent" in that it's a natural phenomena.

I wouldn't even have made that connection.

 

[RyuRoots]

snip

Putting aside your pointless, arbitrary "They can't use anything related to this EVER AGAIN" limitations...You know, this only boils down to "I can't think of any ideas to deal with the Borg, so none must exist!"

That's a very silly and egotistical way to look at it.

Using a Black Hole would be using a natural phenomena. They already used one (The Sun) in "Descent" to destroy a Borg Cruiser, meaning if they DID use a Black Hole the audience would just say it's a rip-off of "Descent" in that it's a natural phenomena.

I would never have made that connection, either.

What I mean is, once you even use a CONCEPT against them then that concept and everything that could be derived from it is useless.

Because of your invisible, nonexistant hating "fans" that only you know about, right?

 

[Anwar]

Putting aside your pointless, arbitrary "They can't use anything related to this EVER AGAIN" limitations

What's the point of having the Borg adapt to things if they don't become totally invulnerable to something after the first try?

...You know, this only boils down to "I can't think of any ideas to deal with the Borg, so none must exist!"

Course I can, I just know from the overblown opinion the fandom has of the Borg that they wouldn't like any them. Like using a teleportation device to teleport an attacking Cube into a black hole where it's instantly ripped apart. No one would've liked that.

Or VOY meeting up with super-powerful aliens who are intrigued by them and casually destroy Borg vessels chasing them so they can study VOY (DS9 did it).

Or VOY finding some superweapon left behind by some dead race and using it to annihilate a Borg ship chasing them (Stargate SG-1 did that to a Goa'uld armada).

Ideas, and none would go over well with the audience.

Because of your invisible, nonexistant hating "fans" that only you know about, right?

No, because if the Borg can't "adapt" to stuff like that then they aren't as tough as they were in TNG where they became totally invulnerable to anything that wasn't plot contrived.

 

[RyuRoots]

What's the point of having the Borg adapt to things if they don't become totally invulnerable to something after the first try?

...you do realize that the effects of a star and the effects of a black hole are rather different from each other, right?

Course I can, I just know from the overblown opinion the fandom has of the Borg that they wouldn't like any them. Like using a teleportation device to teleport an attacking Cube into a black hole where it's instantly ripped apart. No one would've liked that.

If it was that instant, perhaps not. But there ARE ways to handle the Borg that many people who disliked their handling on VOY would've been satisfied with.

Or VOY meeting up with super-powerful aliens who are intrigued by them and casually destroy Borg vessels chasing them so they can study VOY (DS9 did it).

Since your hangup seems to be about the Borg specifically, "DS9 did it." is irrelevant to the conversation. And for the record, I think it'd make for an interesting episode if it was done well.

Or VOY finding some superweapon left behind by some dead race and using it to annihilate a Borg ship chasing them (Stargate SG-1 did that to a Goa'uld armada).

Again, Stargate is completely irrelevant to this conversation since your hangup is on the Borg. Again, it could be interesting if done well.

Ideas, and none would go over well with the audience.

Fact: You do not know that.

No, because if the Borg can't "adapt" to stuff like that then they aren't as tough as they were in TNG where they became totally invulnerable to anything that wasn't plot contrived.

sigh. Again, Anwar, this is just your opinion. And one that I don't agree with, for that matter. What you call "plot contrived" I call "creative".