Some things that bugged me

[firecrackerrrr]

Well TNG is perfection, no doubt about that. But it's been a few years since I watched TNG (except for a few reruns I caught here and there) but how does Deanna Troi "read" emotions when they hail another ship? She can read via the sensors? Really puzzles me...

Also I wish they had done an episode where the civilization on a planet isn't entirely primitive, where they're actually as advanced as we are today in the early 21st Century but still pre-warp and where said civilization was facing extinction by something like a large asteroid. Something that THEY could detect. How would the Enterprise deal with such a situation? If they "deal" with the asteroid, the planet's inhabitants would know as they'd be aware of the asteroid (as we would be today if something like that happened) which would break the Prime Directive, but if they didn't do it said civilization would most likely not survive. Was there an episode that dealt with something like this where the Enterprise faced a similar dilemma?

I can't wait to start rewatching this! It's been too long.

 

[Marten]

There was one with a asteroid going to hit something, but I can't remember the technological level.

 

[SPCTRE]

Also I wish they had done an episode where the civilization on a planet isn't entirely primitive, where they're actually as advanced as we are today in the early 21st Century but still pre-warp and where said civilization was facing extinction by something like a large asteroid. Something that THEY could detect. How would the Enterprise deal with such a situation? If they "deal" with the asteroid, the planet's inhabitants would know as they'd be aware of the asteroid (as we would be today if something like that happened) which would break the Prime Directive, but if they didn't do it said civilization would most likely not survive. Was there an episode that dealt with something like this where the Enterprise faced a similar dilemma?

Well the first episode that comes to mind is season 2's "Pen Pals" (although I'm not sure about the extent of Sarjenka's people's awareness of their impending doom, it's been quite a while since I've seen that episode ).

Data makes contact with a young girl from a pre-warp civilization on a planet facing imminent annihilation. The Enterprise must wrestle with the moral dilemma of violating the Prime Directive or standing by while Data's friend dies.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Pen_Pals_%28episode%29

Enjoy your rewatch!

 

[Timo]

Also, in "Deja Q" our heroes divert an asteroid from a planet whose warp capacity is not explicated, while in "Final Mission" they divert a radioactive waste barge. The natives in both cases are aware of the emergency and ask for assistance; they don't seem to have any starships of their own, though, or at least none participate in the rescue missions.

I have some difficulty seeing a situation where a civilization would be able to spot asteroids, waste barges and the like and not be aware of the fact that all sorts of alien starships fly past their star system every day. The Prime Directive may cease to protect those civilizations that have already "contaminated" themselves by inventing warp drive, but it may well cease to apply on prewarp civilizations, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Argus Skyhawk]

I have some difficulty seeing a situation where a civilization would be able to spot asteroids, waste barges and the like and not be aware of the fact that all sorts of alien starships fly past their star system every day.

With our present technology, we can and have tracked hundreds of asteroids in our own solar system since they travel slower than light and only move a little bit across the starry background from day to day, but if spaceships are whizzing by at faster-than-light speeds we have no way of detecting them.

 

[Christopher]

...how does Deanna Troi "read" emotions when they hail another ship? She can read via the sensors? Really puzzles me...

I always figured that was mostly just people-reading skills, recognizing body language and the like. But the original idea may have been that telepathy was long-range in its effects. I'm not sure how fully they thought it through.

In one of my published ST stories, I included a throwaway line saying that Troi's senses could pick up some limited portion of brainwave emissions that managed to come through the signal feed of the communication system.

 

[Anwar]

The PD only applied when the aliens didn't know about alien life, warp drive is usually the point for when the Feds are allowed to make contact. But if the aliens knew about the existence of others even without Warp Drive there's no PD violation.

 

[Gary7]

I wouldn't call TNG "perfection". They had their fair share of mistakes... But it was a nicely produced series, no argument there.

I like that idea of Deanna Troi being able to pick up some essence of thoughts through a communication channel. But through the thick walls of a starship? Eh... not believable at all. Our brains aren't transmitters! If they were, she'd be going nuts with all of the minds on board. I believe it to be directional, but also range dependent.

With our present technology, we can and have tracked hundreds of asteroids in our own solar system since they travel slower than light and only move a little bit across the starry background from day to day, but if spaceships are whizzing by at faster-than-light speeds we have no way of detecting them.

Excellent point. Even if a spacecraft slows down and assumes a very high Earth orbit, it could be out of range to be detected. There would have to be a very unlikely coincidence of a telescope photographing at just the right moment when a ship passes in view...

There was an episode where a race of people were going to perish because their world was decaying. Worf's foster brother Nikolai was the local observer on Boraal, who was to be rescued. But he snuck a bunch of Boraalans on board. The Enterprise was going to let all of those people die... because of the prime directive. So, would a Federation starship stop an asteroid that would destroy a world if the inhabitants weren't developed enough for first contact? If they could do it without interacting with the inhabitants, perhaps... but then if they knew of their impending destruction, how would they explain the miraculous aversion of disaster? I'd say better that than the whole world being destroyed.

 

[SPCTRE]

But through the thick walls of a starship? Eh... not believable at all. Our brains aren't transmitters! If they were, she'd be going nuts with all of the minds on board.

Actually, that is explained in TNG. Betazoids are able to filter out emotional background noise, much like humans are able to filter out acoustic background noise (for example the sound of traffic) in their daily lives.

 

[firecrackerrrr]

Also, in "Deja Q" our heroes divert an asteroid from a planet whose warp capacity is not explicated, while in "Final Mission" they divert a radioactive waste barge. The natives in both cases are aware of the emergency and ask for assistance; they don't seem to have any starships of their own, though, or at least none participate in the rescue missions.

I have some difficulty seeing a situation where a civilization would be able to spot asteroids, waste barges and the like and not be aware of the fact that all sorts of alien starships fly past their star system every day. The Prime Directive may cease to protect those civilizations that have already "contaminated" themselves by inventing warp drive, but it may well cease to apply on prewarp civilizations, too.

Timo Saloniemi

+

The PD only applied when the aliens didn't know about alien life, warp drive is usually the point for when the Feds are allowed to make contact. But if the aliens knew about the existence of others even without Warp Drive there's no PD violation.

I just watched DejaQ. That civilization had warp technology though. Perhaps I should rephrase to make it clear that said civilization should not be aware of aliens nor have warp technology (again, like we don't today for example). If they faced that kind of dilemma what would they do?

I have some difficulty seeing a situation where a civilization would be able to spot asteroids, waste barges and the like and not be aware of the fact that all sorts of alien starships fly past their star system every day.

With our present technology, we can and have tracked hundreds of asteroids in our own solar system since they travel slower than light and only move a little bit across the starry background from day to day, but if spaceships are whizzing by at faster-than-light speeds we have no way of detecting them.

I'm studying physics so I'm aware of our ability to detect asteroids in our solar system Also it would be unwise to travel at warp speed in a solar system, not to mention the fact that it'd be very difficult to get rid of the asteroid at such speeds.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I think Troi's powers were the most poorly executed part of TNG. In some episodes she can read people on the screen and keep mental track of crewmembers' wellbeing on a planet. Other episodes, people lie in front of her and do harm to people on the ship and she's totally oblivious.

Then there's the episode where Betazoids can't read Ferengi, despite her having already done it in a prior episode.

 

[Deckerd]

Then there's the episode where Betazoids can't read Ferengi, despite her having already done it in a prior episode.

What the hell are you implying? That Trek is inconsistent?

 

[Anwar]

Betazoids can't read a Ferengi's mind, nothing is said about reading their emotions.

 

[Alrik]

But through the thick walls of a starship? Eh... not believable at all. Our brains aren't transmitters! If they were, she'd be going nuts with all of the minds on board.

Actually, that is explained in TNG. Betazoids are able to filter out emotional background noise, much like humans are able to filter out acoustic background noise (for example the sound of traffic) in their daily lives.

Correct. Tin Man did one of the better jobs of dealing with how Betazoids work. Tam Elbrun wasn't able to filter other's thoughts and it drove him batty. But is telepathy was so powerfull that he was 'called' by Tin Man from across the Galaxy. He also had no problem calling out through those thick walls and warning Tin Man to deffend itself from the Romulans.

 

[Gary7]

Actually, that is explained in TNG. Betazoids are able to filter out emotional background noise, much like humans are able to filter out acoustic background noise (for example the sound of traffic) in their daily lives.

Ah, right. She senses emotions, but doesn't "eavesdrop" on actual thought content. So there's the empathic ability, to detect emotion, and then there's the ability to communicate telepathically. But the range is what is rather inconsistently depicted.

Correct. Tin Man did one of the better jobs of dealing with how Betazoids work. Tam Elbrun wasn't able to filter other's thoughts and it drove him batty. But is telepathy was so powerfull that he was 'called' by Tin Man from across the Galaxy. He also had no problem calling out through those thick walls and warning Tin Man to deffend itself from the Romulans.

And this is what kind of bugged me. He's not sensing emotion--he's hearing thoughts. Quite a bit different. It's not directed telepathy, but I guess this significatnly transcended normal Betazoid capabilities. But a thought wave doesn't traveling like a radio wave. You have to consider some kind of amplification. Tin Man had an incredible power, so I can see Tam being able to read it. But transmitting back out at those distances... from a physics standpoint, it just doesn't hold up. Anyway... it just bugged me but didn't keep me from enjoying the episode.

 

[Holdfast]

The Prime Directive may cease to protect those civilizations that have already "contaminated" themselves by inventing warp drive, but it may well cease to apply on prewarp civilizations, too.

I may well be incorrect on this, not having delved too deeply into the lore, but it struck me that the Prime Directive really evolved in meaning over the years and across the various series.

Originally, it struck me as not interfering in a civilisation that was not aware of your existence. That is, if it could not detect you or communicate with you, you should not attempt to alter its natural evolutionary trajectory.

Over time, it seems like various other codicils got added onto this, like the pre-warp vs warp-capable distinctions, and even to the extent of not providing technology to less primitive societies, regardless of warp-capability.

I think the core spirit of the Directive is not to interfere in cultures that are not aware that starships are zipping past you. To extend beyond that really starts to split hairs, with questionable legitimacy in my eyes. I think Janeway even uses the Prime Directive as a reason for not providing the Kazon with Starfleet technology. I mean, really? The Kazon are entirely warp-capable, with an extensive interstellar network... not giving them technology because you don't like their policies is one thing, citing the Prime Directive indirectly (I'm fairly sure she says stuff like "not altering the natural course of the Delta Quadrant" or similar) as a reason...?

You know Trek detail far more than I could ever manage; what's your reading of how the Directive mutated, if at all?

 

[F. King Daniel]

^I don't think the prime directive changed at all, I just think humans just got more anal about it in the 24th century

 

[Holdfast]

^ A distinct possibility.

But even there, it seemed to evolve somewhat between Picard's reading of it versus Janeway in terms of the breadth of its applicability. Perhaps as with the US constitution, there's a conflict between Activist Judge and Strict Constitutionalist interpretations...

 

[Christopher]

And this is what kind of bugged me. He's not sensing emotion--he's hearing thoughts. Quite a bit different. It's not directed telepathy, but I guess this significatnly transcended normal Betazoid capabilities.

No, normal Betazoid capability is reading thoughts. Deanna's only an empath because she's half-human and thus isn't as powerful as a full Betazoid.

But a thought wave doesn't traveling like a radio wave. You have to consider some kind of amplification. Tin Man had an incredible power, so I can see Tam being able to read it. But transmitting back out at those distances... from a physics standpoint, it just doesn't hold up.

ST (like other SF) has often portrayed telepathy as transcending speed-of-light and distance limits -- two minds could connect telepathically and instantaneously over any distance (see "Haven" for one of the clearest assertions of this). I find it best to think of it as a nonlocal phenomenon, a form of quantum entanglement between minds.

 

[Anwar]

Well, giving away free technology is way different from giving aid. I mean in giving tech that the others weren't capable of making on their own, is kind of like giving a kid the keys to a car. If they couldn't make it on their own, whose to say they could use it properly and not harm themselves?

Plus, the Kazon were a band of violent space pirates. You can't give away free tech to folks like that, they'd just use it to conquer and enslave others around them who could defend themselves before you interfered.