Generations Ent-B scenes...

[Saito S]

In another recent thread on GEN, the lines spoken by Kirk, Scotty, and Chekov on the Enterprise-B were brought up, and it got me thinking about something that's bugged me for a while.

I've heard this notion that the lines were originally written for Spock and McCoy, instead of Scotty and Chekov, many times. Now, I don't dispute that this was what the writers/producers of the movie originally had in mind, and that it was changed to Scotty and Chekov when Nimoy and Kelley declined. What I don't get is this ridiculous idea that it's SO OBVIOUS that the lines heard IN the finished version of the film were "intended" for Spock and McCoy. It's not obvious at all. NONE of the lines spoken by either Scotty or Chekov are tailored for either Spock or McCoy. Not all of their lines are tailored for Soctty and Chekov, either; some of their lines are "generic", simply there to move the scene forward. But all characters in all TV shows and movies have lines like that sometimes, and the only lines that aren't generic in that fashion do seem tailored for the characters that speak them.

Chekov: "I was never that young."
Kirk: "No... you were younger."
-Who else but Chekov would have made sense in that exchange? Chekov was "the kid" when he was introduced on the show. That exchange with Kirk would have been stupid with either McCoy or Spock (both of whom are older than Kirk).

Kirk: "Scotty, hold things together till I get back!"
Scotty: "I always do."
-That is nothing less than a homage line, to the countless number of times that Scotty managed to just barely "hold things together" over the years while serving with Kirk. Again, that line would have made no sense with Spock or McCoy.

I won't list every line in this post, but those are examples to illustrate my point: I don't think there is a single line of dialog spoken by either character that isn't either A) a line tailored FOR that character specifically, or B) a generic line that simply serves to move the scene forward, which could have been spoken by just about anyone (which would mean it wasn't tailored for Scotty or Chekov, but certainly wasn't tailored for McCoy or Spock, either).

So, where is this notion coming from, exactly? Which specific lines on the Enterprise-B are the ones that sound like they were written for Spcok and McCoy? Cause I really don't see it.

 

[Whofan]

Well, the lines were re-written a bit, but not quite enough.

A lot of the lines in the deleted paragliding scene, for instance, sound a bit like Spock and McCoy. Chechov stating the amount of kilometers Kirk missed, and Scotty talking about Kirk's back is very McCoy.

Plus Chechov in sickbay, pretty much very McCoy. (Except for the Russian curse)

 

[UssGlenn]

Chekov:"You and you, you just became nurses" was obviously not modified from McCoy taking over as CMO since there wasn't one on board. That's the one that really stuck out for me.

 

[Saito S]

Well, the lines were re-written a bit, but not quite enough.

A lot of the lines in the deleted paragliding scene,

Irrelevant.

What I don't get is this ridiculous idea that it's SO OBVIOUS that the lines heard IN the finished version of the film were "intended" for Spock and McCoy.

Deleted scenes don't count. I haven't watched the GEN deleted scenes in ages, so I can't comment on them (I might watch em again when I get home from work, now I'm curious), but I'm only concerned with the finished movie itself.

Plus Chechov in sickbay, pretty much very McCoy. (Except for the Russian curse)

and

Chekov:"You and you, you just became nurses" was obviously not modified from McCoy taking over as CMO since there wasn't one on board. That's the one that really stuck out for me.

How is that tailored for McCoy? Just because it's medical?

Is every line ever written in a TNG production about security concerns tailored for Worf? Is ever line ever written in a TOS production about a new scientific discovery tailored for Spock?

I don't dispute that the sickbay scene and "nurses" line were written because they originally planned to have McCoy in there. As I said, I'm aware that the entire thing was originally intended to be Spock and McCoy. But I'm not talking about producer/writer intention, I'm talking about how the final scenes on-screen played. Did losing Kelley mean that the writers were obligated to remove the sickbay/no medical officers gag entirely? I don't think so. So what they did was keep it, but add in just a bit of spin ('the Russian curse") to make it Chekov's line. It's not like it's unbelievable that Chekov - a Starfleet commander who has seen YEARS of service - would have at least halfway-decent medical training. So the simple fact that "it's medical" isn't enough to me to explain why that line or scene played on-screen as being intended for McCoy.

 

[RyuRoots]

Well, the lines were re-written a bit, but not quite enough.

A lot of the lines in the deleted paragliding scene, for instance, sound a bit like Spock and McCoy. Chechov stating the amount of kilometers Kirk missed, and Scotty talking about Kirk's back is very McCoy.

Plus Chechov in sickbay, pretty much very McCoy. (Except for the Russian curse)

The scene isn't in the movie, so it's a moot point. And there's nothing that precludes Chekov from being able to organize some first-aid measures, and there's no line written for McCoy in that sequence.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Chekov:"You and you, you just became nurses" was obviously not modified from McCoy taking over as CMO since there wasn't one on board. That's the one that really stuck out for me.

That one and the Scotty/Kirk "I do have a theory"/"I thought you might" are the most blatant examples. C'mon, guys, that's obviously a Spock & Kirk exchange. The curmugeonly quality of "You and you, you just became nurses" is not characteristic of Chekov, either.

Plus, it's always seemed wrong to me to hear TOS characters spouting TNG-style technobabble.

 

[RyuRoots]

Chekov:"You and you, you just became nurses" was obviously not modified from McCoy taking over as CMO since there wasn't one on board. That's the one that really stuck out for me.

That one and the Scotty/Kirk "I do have a theory"/"I thought you might" are the most blatant examples. C'mon, guys, that's obviously a Spock & Kirk exchange. The curmugeonly quality of "You and you, you just became nurses" is not characteristic of Chekov, either.

How about listing any other examples at all, if these are just the "most blatant" ones?

So, Scotty, whose whole schtick is finding fixes within the ship to solve problems, offering an idea how to do so, is obviously a Spock line. The wording out of context, maybe silghtly, but it again is part of this ridiculous mentality of "nobody could ever have a theory about anything who isn't Spock, certainly not an experienced engineer."

Regarding Chekov's delivery: Right, because the TOS crew weren't at all shown to be exasperated by the Ent-B's lack of equipment throughout this sequence.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

How about listing any other examples at all, if these are just the "most blatant" ones?

I'll pass, since you've obviously already made up your mind on this matter. Why bother posting in here if you only want to hear from people who agree with you?

So, Scotty, whose whole schtick is finding fixes within the ship to solve problems, offering an idea how to do so, is obviously a Spock line. The wording out of context, maybe silghtly, but it again is part of this ridiculous mentality of "nobody could ever have a theory about anything who isn't Spock, certainly not an experienced engineer."

It's not the fact that Scotty had a theory, it's the fact that the line is worded in Spock's more formal speech patten.

Regarding Chekov's delivery: Right, because the TOS crew weren't at all shown to be exasperated by the Ent-B's lack of equipment throughout this sequence.

Again, it's how the line is written. It's Chekov saying a line in McCoy's speech pattern.

 

[Saito S]

That one and the Scotty/Kirk "I do have a theory"/"I thought you might" are the most blatant examples. C'mon, guys, that's obviously a Spock & Kirk exchange.

I think you're overstating it a bit, but I concede that's kind of a "Spock-ish" way of putting it. More on this below...

The curmugeonly quality of "You and you, you just became nurses" is not characteristic of Chekov, either.

Eh, come on... was this really any more curmudgeonly than his "Guess who's coming to dinner" in TUC? A character who isn't McCoy can't be (quite justifiably, in the context of what was happening on the Ent-B bridge) grumpy?

Plus, it's always seemed wrong to me to hear TOS characters spouting TNG-style technobabble.

Though this doesn't really pertain to the topic, this didn't bother me, since technobable in general doesn't bother me (as long as it doesn't go overboard, which - to be fair - is a problem at times with modern Trek. But I don't feel it was overboard in GEN).

How about listing any other examples at all, if these are just the "most blatant" ones?

I'll pass, since you've obviously already made up your mind on this matter. Why bother posting in here if you only want to hear from people who agree with you?

Are you serious? All he did was ask for more examples (which I would like to see as well). His posts make it clear he basically agrees with my viewpoint on the dialog, but why does that mean he shouldn't post in here? His wording wasn't even hostile. If you can't handle someone challenging your assertions, than YOU shouldn't be posting in here, dude (since a debate on this topic is what the point of the thread IS). Hell, he even acknowledged (as I did) that the WORDING was sort of Spock-ish.

It's not the fact that Scotty had a theory, it's the fact that the line is worded in Spock's more formal speech patten.

The wording is in part slightly more formal; "I do have a theory." However, the exact line is: "But, I do have a theory." Spock would never have said that, he would have said "however," not "but." If the word "theory" is so important as to render that a Spock-specific line, than the word "but" moves it right back into neutral "this line could have gone to multiple characters" territory. Thus, as I said above, it's a "Spock-ish" line, but I still don't see how it's so incredibly obvious that it was meant for Spock (especially since, as I pointed out, if it HAD been Spock, it would have been slightly different than the line in the movie).

Again, it's how the line is written. It's Chekov saying a line in McCoy's speech pattern.

And again, I don't see how that was McCoy's "speech pattern". The wording of the line itself was quite generic, in my opinion; anyone could have said it. The only distinguishing things were a Russian curse (that obviously could only have gone to Chekov) and the delivery, which was very grumpy. Just because one character is known for being grumpy doesn't mean no one else can be. And the irritation displayed by both Chekov AND Kirk at the ill-prepared state of the Ent-B was a running gag throughout the sequence, establishing a context for said grumpiness. Now, again, it's well established that the scene WAS originally supposed to have McCoy. Was the line written with that in mind? Maybe. But what I'm getting at is how it plays on screen. Is the fact that it's a grumpy line about sickbay really enough to make it painfully obvious that it was written for McCoy, to the point that the writers were obligated to change it entirely? Chekov can't be grumpy? Chekov can't work in sickbay?

And frankly, I DO want more examples. So far we've only covered two lines. I've seen tons of criticism around the net that the entire sequence falls flat for this very reason. Granted, that's "around the net", not on this BBS, but that's what I'm getting at: do people here feel that way about not just a couple of lines, but about the whole thing? Most or all of Chekov and Scotty's dialog? If so, let's see what other lines are suspect.

EDIT: Just to be clear on something: "painfully obvious". This is what I'm getting at. Certainly, all the medical staff business was written in because they had McCoy in mind. So if one watches the scene, and KNOWS that it was originally intended for McCoy, maybe you figure that out. But if you didn't know that? Someone would really look at these lines and go "Oh my god, this was so written for McCoy"? That's what I mean by "painfully obvious", to the point where it's a problem. As I've said, I know that the scen WAS originally intended for McCoy and Spock. But I don't see how that fact pollutes the actual dialog spoken by Scotty and McCoy in the finished version of the film.

 

[RyuRoots]

I'll pass, since you've obviously already made up your mind on this matter. Why bother posting in here if you only want to hear from people who agree with you?

Or...maybe I actually want to hear you list some examples, since that's what I said? I have sorta made up my mind, yes, but it's a debate. The whole point is for opposing views to present arguments. I honestly want to see what any further ones are.

It's not the fact that Scotty had a theory, it's the fact that the line is worded in Spock's more formal speech patten.

I disagree. In fact, I think that because it WASN'T in Spock's formal speech pattern that it fits. What in that line strikes you as formal?

Again, it's how the line is written. It's Chekov saying a line in McCoy's speech pattern.

Like Saito S pointed out, I don't see what how he says it has in common with McCoy aside from sounding sort of irritable. It isn't the first time Chekov has delivered lines in such a way. But again, if it's something else, please continue.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Several examples have already been cited, like Scotty teasing Kirk (characteristic of McCoy), Scotty speaking in Spock's speech pattern, Chekov being suddenly deputizing nurses in a very McCoy-esque manner, and Chekov pointing out the exact distance that the skydiving Kirk missed his target by in a precise, Spock-like manner. All you guys have said in response is "that doesn't count because it's in a deleted scene" and "What, another character can't be grumpy/have a theory?" So basically, you're discounting anything that doesn't support your arguement.

So I'm done here.

 

[RyuRoots]

Several examples have already been cited, like Scotty teasing Kirk (characteristic of McCoy)

So...Scotty can't pal around with Kirk then, give him a hard time now and again because McCoy did? Why?

Scotty speaking in Spock's speech pattern

I do wish you would elaborate on this.

Chekov being suddenly deputizing nurses in a very McCoy-esque manner

I think that it fits given the situation, and he was the best fit for it of the three.

and Chekov pointing out the exact distance that the skydiving Kirk missed his target by in a precise, Spock-like manner.

This was not in the movie, so it doesn't really matter for the sake of this discussion

All you guys have said in response is "that doesn't count because it's in a deleted scene"

Which is valid, since Saito S said specifically "in the finished version of the film" in the opening post

"What, another character can't be grumpy/have a theory?" So basically, you're discounting anything that doesn't support your arguement.

No, I'm discounting things that are applicable to anyone instead of specifically Spock or McCoy.

 

[Saito S]

Several examples have already been cited, like Scotty teasing Kirk (characteristic of McCoy), Scotty speaking in Spock's speech pattern, Chekov being suddenly deputizing nurses in a very McCoy-esque manner, and Chekov pointing out the exact distance that the skydiving Kirk missed his target by in a precise, Spock-like manner. All you guys have said in response is "that doesn't count because it's in a deleted scene" and "What, another character can't be grumpy/have a theory?" So basically, you're discounting anything that doesn't support your arguement.

So I'm done here.

Deleted scenes DON'T count! That was a premise of the thread that I established in the very first post! For you to act all indignant at me holding people to that is ridiculous. And what we said about grumpy theories and whatnot... that wasn't "discounting" anything, it's called a rebuttal. We didn't just say "lolno", we said we disagreed with the notion that simply being grumpy was, on its own, enough to make a line "obviously meant for McCoy." Then we explained WHY we felt that way (I cited an example of Chekov dialog from another movie for frak's sake!) That's not "discounting", it's debating.

You know what? Never mind. Clearly you're not interested in a debate, so if you really are "done here", then don't let the door hit you on the way out.

As for people having their minds already made up... I'd wager everyone who comes into this thread already has their mind made up. That's kind of the nature of message boards. I didn't exactly hide the fact that I think the whole thing is bollocks in my opening post. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing what specific lines stuck out to people, and in what ways, or that I'm not open to the possibility that someone might point out something I hadn't thought of before.

 

[zar]

It's not the fact that Scotty had a theory, it's the fact that the line is worded in Spock's more formal speech patten.

I don't see how it is. The whole line is:

"There's just no way to disrupt a gravimetric field of this magnitude! (pause) But I do have a theory."

I can't imagine Spock talking like that. I'm sure it was rewritten for Scott. The technobabble that follows fits Spock more, but I can also imagine it being said by Scott, Obrien, or Geordi equally well. Spock's "speech pattern" has a lot to do with the way Leonard Nimoy delivers. Same with the other characters. There's nothing in that scene that fits only Spock.

 

[Timo]

What I don't get is this ridiculous idea that it's SO OBVIOUS that the lines heard IN the finished version of the film were "intended" for Spock and McCoy. It's not obvious at all.

I have to ask, what do you mean by this?

That it's not possible to tell which lines were written with Spock and McCoy in mind? That's false, of course, because it's easy to tell. But some of the argumentation here still seems to revolve around this interpretation of the original claim.

That it's not possible to deduce that some lines were written with Spock and McCoy in mind unless one is already aware that this happened? That's properly debatable. But it splits to two questions: are the characters so much out of character that the audience notices something amiss, and are the characters so much in each other's character that the audience can make the connection?

Scotty is not Scotty in the movie. "Our" Scotty would tease Kirk, sure, but he wouldn't have "theories" - he would have answers. That's just this ONE line not properly rewritten, but it's enough to cast doubt on the character, and enough to make one decide that Scotty is being Spock if one has already been told that the writers originally intended it that way. ONE miserable line mangled by the rewriters. Apart from that one, it would have been more or less fine. Except, of course, for the fact that Scotty never volunteered to adjust the deflector, which goes against his general character (always the good soldier, always defending his captain) and plot logic (why would Kirk know anything about deflectors, and why wouldn't Scotty?), and is only excused by the fact that Scotty is also an acknowledged transporter wizard and might be further needed in that role. But that further need could have been better rewritten, too.

Chekov is being wery much Chekov in terms of character. Nothing wrong with that. Not even when we get the one compromising scene, the one where he appoints nurses. That's how Chekov would do it - he always was one for abusing his formal authority and barking orders, while making everybody else feel the guilt for it. That's splendid Chekov, in fact.

What sadly makes no sense is the idea that he would be appointing nurses. He's never shown any medical competence (despite accumulating more than his share of medical woes). He wouldn't be appointing nurses. He would be putting together a medical team out of a disorderly and incompletely manned sickbay crew, appointing a preexisting nurse as Chief Surgeon and then shepherding in some reporters to serve as nurses. Or he would interrogate the reporters and VIPs in classic Chekov style until he managed to extract a confession that one of them had medical knowledge, then appoint that person as Chief Surgeon.

Not a question of rewriting the lines to better match the character here. That was all right for Scotty, and almost worked, save for that single line. Here, the character is fine. But the plot needs to be reworked around the fact that Chekov isn't a doctor, and the writers fail. Epically.

So IMHO two failures, one on Scotty's character, one on Chekov's plotline. Both of them limited to a single line, a single event, in an otherwise flawless save - but both of them quite crippling if one already knows the characters were shuffled.

The audience will notice something amiss. It is perhaps not obligated to realize that Scotty is being Spock or that Chekov is being McCoy - but both the offenses, while very small and isolated as such, are highly characteristic of their specific characters, because only Spock has "theories" in Star Trek, and only McCoy is a doctor in Star Trek. Having theories or being an MD are not generic qualities in Star Trek. Those things should have been better rewritten.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mr Silver]

GEN was a fail of a film....
However I think if they included the entire TOS cast, the scenes onboard the Ent-B would have gone down better, add to that a less pissy, wimpy Captain and we might have had a more dramatic series of events

Instead of

Kirk: "Phasers..!?!"
Harriman: "They won't be installed until Tuesday"

how about

Ops Officer: "Sir! detecting an energy surge, several systems including Weapons and Shields have failed
Harriman: "Reinforce the Structural Intensity Fields, Standby on Tractor Beam"
Ops Officer: "Sir, the Tractor Beam has gone too"
Spock: "Jim, we may be of some use"
Harriman: "I'd welcome any help you and the rest of your officers, Captain Kirk can offer"
Kirk: "Scotty, get to the Ops station, see if you can get a lock on the ships crew, Uhura, try and break through the Energy Surge, see if we can signal Starfleet for additional assistance, Chekov you and Spock start working on getting the systems back online, Bones get down to Sickbay, help out their medical staff, we're likely going to have injured
Harriman: "Thank you Captain Kirk"
Kirk: "Please..Don't mention it, sitting in that chair doesn't come naturally to anyone at first, not even me"
Scotty: "I got 47 out of 150
McCoy: "You and you, just became nurses, you start over there..and you over here..oh and get some damn medical supplies up here"
Chekov: "Captain, I believe ve can break free a focused Deflector Pulse should do it
Kirk: "Scotty do we have enough power"
Scotty: "Aye Sir, but I canna guarantee that we can get the deflectors back online"
Spock: "Captain I believe theres a possibility, i've managed to bypass the affected circuits and shield them from the Energy Surge, however I cannot re-enable the Main Deflector from here, however it can be done from Deflector Control
Harriman: "I'll go"
Uhura: "Sir, i've broken through the interference, Starfleet says they've got the Excelsior on the way, but it will take them 2 hours at high warp
Spock: "Captain...there is something disturbing but also fascinating about this Energy Ribbon, I'm attempting to scan through its... (Spock's console overloads) perhaps not"
Harriman: "Deflector Control"
Kirk "Wait! I'll go, your place is on the bridge of your ship"
McCoy: "Was somebody in here"?
Scotty: "Aye"
Spock: "...Jim"

or something to that effect,

 

[RyanKCR]

I knew that Kelly and Nimoy declined and that the parts were rewritten and when I saw the movie there were parts where I recognized Scotty and Chekov and a lot where they were not in character. I found out later that the parts were not so much rewritten but lines modified from Spock and McCoy to Scotty and Chekov. It is obvious in some places and not others but the main thing is that at times they were badly out of character.

Captian M, I would love to have seen that scene.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Deleted scenes DON'T count! That was a premise of the thread that I established in the very first post!

They do point toward the fact that the script was written for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, though. As you yourself wrote in the first post:

I've heard this notion that the lines were originally written for Spock and McCoy, instead of Scotty and Chekov, many times. Now, I don't dispute that this was what the writers/producers of the movie originally had in mind, and that it was changed to Scotty and Chekov when Nimoy and Kelley declined

And that's exactly what happened with Generations.

The first draft had all seven of Kirk's crew. It didn't work -- the scenes were too busy, and characters like Uhura and Sulu only had one or two lines of dialogue at most. Moore and Braga pared back to Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Nimoy and Kelley decided not to do the film, and Spock's dialogue went to Scotty and McCoy's dialogue went to Chekov. (Also, Demora went from being Chekov's daughter to Sulu's daughter, but that's less important.)

So, yes, the deleted scenes do count, in the sense that they indicate the creative decision-making that went into changing the "Big Three" into the "Slightly Lesser Three."

 

[TigerOfDarkness]

I think the most obvious Spock line is "Captain, is there something wrong with your chair?".

I don't recall Chekov's lines being obviously McCoy's but Chekov acting as the medical officer and "drafting" the nurses is what McCoy would do.

 

[RyuRoots]

Deleted scenes DON'T count! That was a premise of the thread that I established in the very first post!

They do point toward the fact that the script was written for Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, though. As you yourself wrote in the first post:

I've heard this notion that the lines were originally written for Spock and McCoy, instead of Scotty and Chekov, many times. Now, I don't dispute that this was what the writers/producers of the movie originally had in mind, and that it was changed to Scotty and Chekov when Nimoy and Kelley declined

And that's exactly what happened with Generations.

The first draft had all seven of Kirk's crew. It didn't work -- the scenes were too busy, and characters like Uhura and Sulu only had one or two lines of dialogue at most. Moore and Braga pared back to Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Nimoy and Kelley decided not to do the film, and Spock's dialogue went to Scotty and McCoy's dialogue went to Chekov. (Also, Demora went from being Chekov's daughter to Sulu's daughter, but that's less important.)

So, yes, the deleted scenes do count, in the sense that they indicate the creative decision-making that went into changing the "Big Three" into the "Slightly Lesser Three."

Except no, they really don't, because it still has nothing to do with any of the lines in the final film, which is what the topic is about.