Suicide clinic wants to kill grieving relatives too

[pookha]

RJ's definitions apply here as well, in my opinion.

Certainly we are all going to die, but that doesn't mean the cessation of life any sooner, when one is in fine physical condition, isn't rooted in being emotionally unstable or mentally unbalanced. Emotions can play a terrible trick on us, by convincing us we are ready for something of which we have no intellectual grasp beyond the most rudimentary elements. Hindsight is 20/20 unless you are no longer alive. Then there's no regretful changes of heart. The ultimate finality of death is why this issue has to be handled so carefully.

Preventing death, it is not the same thing as prolonging life. We are too hung up on the former. So much so that we lose sight of the latter, sometimes even working against the latter INHO.

Say you have a man, he's 80 years old and in perfect health for a man his age. He is retired, his family is secure, he's happy with his life. You are saying he shouldn't be allowed to choose to end his life then, when he wants and how he wants with all his family around (supporting his decision) together. He should be treated as a mental patient and forced to continue living a life he feels has reached it's natural end simply because Death is wrong? He should be forced to waist away for another ten or twenty years, a life really of existing nor living, just because people are hung up on the issue of death? Wouldn't that be the near the same level of mental torture, spread out over a greater time, as someone with a terminal illness?

Your premise that once you reach a certain age you start to "waste away" is false to begin with. Some people are healthier in their 70s and 80s than they were in their 20s and 30s. If your hypothetical 80-year-old is in good physical condition and has no chronic ailments impacting his life, why would he want to die?

It would be different if he had some kind of incurable, progressive disease slowing eating away at him. But you seem to be implying that once you reach a certain age you inevitably start to lose everything, and that's just untrue.

I understand your point about not prolonging life just to escape death, but you seem to have gone too far in the other direction--that we should think it's OK for an otherwise healthy and fit person to off themselves just because they're "finished" with life. Someone who has had a good life and is enjoying themselves and isn't on death's door is not going to have that attitude; it means something is wrong.

i agree ;especially if the person is healthy and can still enjoy life. heck through most of her 80's at least till 86 my mother was having a good time with friends ect.

and she had health issues.

you never know when you are going to meet an interesting new person, hear a beautuful new piece of music , see a grandchild born.

 

[Data Holmes]

What about a convicted murderer serving life in prison? What about a perfectly normal and healthy person who has reached an age/point in there life where they feel they have completed everything they wanted, and are happy with there life, who choose to end it on a high not instead of falling to the "down slope" of extreme aging, someone who wants to go out quick and painless instead of being plagued with the pitfalls of growing old.

What about a really lazy person who doesn't want to work for a living for fifty years before retiring? What about somebody who doesn't want to go to school because they get bullied? What about somebody who's favorite TV show just got canceled?

What about them?

Preventing death, it is not the same thing as prolonging life. We are too hung up on the former. So much so that we lose sight of the latter, sometimes even working against the latter INHO.

Say you have a man, he's 80 years old and in perfect health for a man his age. He is retired, his family is secure, he's happy with his life. You are saying he shouldn't be allowed to choose to end his life then, when he wants and how he wants with all his family around (supporting his decision) together. He should be treated as a mental patient and forced to continue living a life he feels has reached it's natural end simply because Death is wrong? He should be forced to waist away for another ten or twenty years, a life really of existing nor living, just because people are hung up on the issue of death? Wouldn't that be the near the same level of mental torture, spread out over a greater time, as someone with a terminal illness?

Your premise that once you reach a certain age you start to "waste away" is false to begin with. Some people are healthier in their 70s and 80s than they were in their 20s and 30s. If your hypothetical 80-year-old is in good physical condition and has no chronic ailments impacting his life, why would he want to die?

It would be different if he had some kind of incurable, progressive disease slowing eating away at him. But you seem to be implying that once you reach a certain age you inevitably start to lose everything, and that's just untrue.

I understand your point about not prolonging life just to escape death, but you seem to have gone too far in the other direction--that we should think it's OK for an otherwise healthy and fit person to off themselves just because they're "finished" with life. Someone who has had a good life and is enjoying themselves and isn't on death's door is not going to have that attitude; it means something is wrong.

i agree ;especially if the person is healthy and can still enjoy life. heck through most of her 80's at least till 86 my mother was having a good time with friends ect.

and she had health issues.

you never know when you are going to meet an interesting new person, hear a beautuful new piece of music , see a grandchild born.

You can't really miss what you never know.

 

[Amaris]

Also, labelling all people who killed themselves mentally ill or unstable is rather excessive, if not a little offensive.

Suicide is about the clearest symptom of mental illness there is.

Completely agreed. If someone is wanting to kill themselves, and they are not in excruciating and chronic pain, then something is terribly wrong and they need help to get themselves balanced and well again. Suicide is not the answer.

 

[Kestra]

Also, labelling all people who killed themselves mentally ill or unstable is rather excessive, if not a little offensive.

Suicide is about the clearest symptom of mental illness there is.

Completely agreed. If someone is wanting to kill themselves, and they are not in excruciating and chronic pain, then something is terribly wrong and they need help to get themselves balanced and well again. Suicide is not the answer.

I dunno, how do you define excruciating? What if it's not excruciating, but does put them in a position to have a low level in terms of quality of life, and it's chronic? What if it's a mental illness that's causing them chronic pain? Does that automatically rule suicide "not an option"?

At what point is someone allowed to say "I don't want to live with this quality of life" without being declared mentally ill in that regard? Are they ever?

 

[Amaris]

I dunno, how do you define excruciating? What if it's not excruciating, but does put them in a position to have a low level in terms of quality of life, and it's chronic? What if it's a mental illness that's causing them chronic pain? Does that automatically rule suicide "not an option"?

At what point is someone allowed to say "I don't want to live with this quality of life" without being declared mentally ill in that regard? Are they ever?

There is leeway in defining "excruciating", as every person has a different threshold for pain. For example, if someone had to live with a migraine their whole life, or the vast majority of it without relief, that would be excruciating. When I define excruciating, I add the proviso that there is no known level of reasonable relief. If someone is in excruciating back pain, there are many methods of relief, but it is possible that there are no methods that work for one particular person. I would consider something like that to be reasonable (although I would still try every avenue of pain relief).

One of the reasons I had "chronic" in the aforementioned post was specifically to address the fact that chronic pain can be excruciating, because it consists of pain that intrudes on every facet of someone's life. I can understand someone wanting to end their life when they are in such chronic pain.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Also, labelling all people who killed themselves mentally ill or unstable is rather excessive, if not a little offensive.

Suicide is about the clearest symptom of mental illness there is.

There's a lot of subjective cultural bias in how we define “mental illness.” For example, the old samurai code of bushido still has a strong influence on the cultural values of modern Japan. Some Japanese will commit suicide as a preferable alternative to living with disgrace or dishonor. Does that make them mentally ill?

Of course it does.

What about a convicted murderer serving life in prison? What about a perfectly normal and healthy person who has reached an age/point in there life where they feel they have completed everything they wanted, and are happy with there life, who choose to end it on a high not instead of falling to the "down slope" of extreme aging, someone who wants to go out quick and painless instead of being plagued with the pitfalls of growing old.

What about a really lazy person who doesn't want to work for a living for fifty years before retiring? What about somebody who doesn't want to go to school because they get bullied? What about somebody who's favorite TV show just got canceled?

What about them?

What do you think? Which "pitfalls" qualify and which don't?

 

[Data Holmes]

Suicide is about the clearest symptom of mental illness there is.

There's a lot of subjective cultural bias in how we define “mental illness.” For example, the old samurai code of bushido still has a strong influence on the cultural values of modern Japan. Some Japanese will commit suicide as a preferable alternative to living with disgrace or dishonor. Does that make them mentally ill?

Of course it does.

What about a really lazy person who doesn't want to work for a living for fifty years before retiring? What about somebody who doesn't want to go to school because they get bullied? What about somebody who's favorite TV show just got canceled?

What about them?

What do you think? Which "pitfalls" qualify and which don't?

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

 

[Amaris]

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

Would you let your friend drink himself to death? If so, then you are not a friend. So, that too, we strive to save people who cannot see they are bringing themselves to death's door without realizing there is a better way. Every man is my brother, every woman my sister.

 

[Miss Chicken]

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

I don't think you have address the point that I raised which was -

Even if a person has the right to commit suicide, does that mean that other people have the right to help him commit suicide?

 

[Data Holmes]

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

I don't think you have address the point that I raised which was -

Even if a person has the right to commit suicide, does that mean that other people have the right to help him commit suicide?

I would say yes. Because, while I may not agree with the decision, and refuse to offer help, it is a personal decision that others may agree with an offer/agree to assist with...

Though I would stipulate that such would not extend outside of a "professional" field, ie asking a friend to pull the trigger on the gun in the back room of your house would be murder. Asking a nurse for pills in a "suicide clinic" wouldn't.


The real problem is that this is a matter of personal/social morals, and really falls down into the same polarizing pit of personal opinion as abortion. And, much like that subject, I'm personally opposed, but support the right of choice for others.

 

[YellowSubmarine]

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

I don't think you have address the point that I raised which was -

Even if a person has the right to commit suicide, does that mean that other people have the right to help him commit suicide?

I can see only one reason to not allow helping suicide. Possibility for abuse. If you can help people doing suicide, you can easily commit murder and make it look like you were assisting suicide. Even with highly regulated euthanasia, it's possible that a clinic forces a patient to sign the documents that he wants to be killed, to save money.

The suffering of chronically ill people is important enough to make us look for a solution that solves this problem at least partially and then make a good compromise that would allow euthanasia and preferably minimize the possibility of abuse.

But if someone wants to kill themselves for other reason, it's another thing. Yes, I believe that in theory they should have the right to help almost as much as a person has a right to their own life. However, in practice, allowing this is dangerous and might have serious implications, and without a justification that other people can understand, it's neither a good idea, nor of great importance. And hey, these people usually have the physical ability to do it themselves.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

I don't think you have address the point that I raised which was -

Even if a person has the right to commit suicide, does that mean that other people have the right to help him commit suicide?

I can see only one reason to not allow helping suicide. Possibility for abuse. If you can help people doing suicide, you can easily commit murder and make it look like you were assisting suicide. Even with highly regulated euthanasia, it's possible that a clinic forces a patient to sign the documents that he wants to be killed, to save money.

The suffering of chronically ill people is important enough to make us look for a solution that solves this problem at least partially and then make a good compromise that would allow euthanasia and preferably minimize the possibility of abuse.

But if someone wants to kill themselves for other reason, it's another thing. Yes, I believe that in theory they should have the right to help almost as much as a person has a right to their own life. However, in practice, allowing this is dangerous and might have serious implications, and without a justification that other people can understand, it's neither a good idea, nor of great importance. And hey, these people usually have the physical ability to do it themselves.

It would also be possible to manipulate someone into suicide. And if you can help them off themselves, all the better! I mean, what if a husband or wife has a spouse that's mentally ill? Perfect opportunity to subtly convince them life isn't worth living, and "hey, let me help you end it all, I sure don't want to see you suffer!"

 

[Kestra]

Would you let your friend drink himself to death? If so, then you are not a friend.

Don't want to bring this off-topic but I just need to say that if someone wants to drink himself to death, you can't really stop him. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are that person's friend. Many people have had to watch their loved ones succumb to alcoholism, helpless to stop them.

 

[pookha]

Would you let your friend drink himself to death? If so, then you are not a friend.

Don't want to bring this off-topic but I just need to say that if someone wants to drink himself to death, you can't really stop him. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are that person's friend. Many people have had to watch their loved ones succumb to alcoholism, helpless to stop them.

amen to this.. one can try interventions and all kinds of things.
but person wont stop unless they wish.
been there and delt with it.
you can offer opportunities and support to help them but they have to decide.

 

[Amaris]

Would you let your friend drink himself to death? If so, then you are not a friend.

Don't want to bring this off-topic but I just need to say that if someone wants to drink himself to death, you can't really stop him. It has nothing to do with whether or not you are that person's friend. Many people have had to watch their loved ones succumb to alcoholism, helpless to stop them.

I don't mean physically, though, I mean actually addressing that person's problem. Granted, you can't force him or her to stop drinking, but a friend doesn't ignore the problem even if in their heart of hearts they know what's going to happen.

 

[scotpens]

There's a lot of subjective cultural bias in how we define “mental illness.” For example, the old samurai code of bushido still has a strong influence on the cultural values of modern Japan. Some Japanese will commit suicide as a preferable alternative to living with disgrace or dishonor. Does that make them mentally ill?

Of course it does.

Try telling that to these guys and you'll get a sword up your bum.

Every man is my brother, every woman my sister.

But what if somebody doesn't want to be your brother or sister? What if you extend your altruistic hand to someone you perceive to be in need of help, and they politely tell you to fuck off?

 

[RJDiogenes]

It's a personal choice to make, for personal reasons. It isn't up for us to qualify or disqualify people's reasons for them to exercise their freedom and right, as an individual, to self terminate.

Of course it is. Society has an obligation to protect its own members, especially those who cannot protect themselves. That includes making decisions for those who are not competent to make decisions for themselves. Or do you think that children or adults with Down's Syndrome or somebody with severe schizophrenia should be allowed to commit suicide?

Try telling that to these guys and you'll get a sword up your bum.

That's just further proof that they're crazy.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

This is one of the times that I'm glad to live in a socially backward country.

 

[Amaris]

But what if somebody doesn't want to be your brother or sister? What if you extend your altruistic hand to someone you perceive to be in need of help, and they politely tell you to fuck off?

Again, I can't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. All I can try to do is persuade them to take a better course of action than suicide.

 

[I Grok Spock]

Every man is my brother, every woman my sister.

This must make dating difficult.