"I like the new movie better..."

[Dukhat]

No he wasn't but if you watch the episode ALL the way till the end, You would have heard Uhura announcing a message from Starfleet Command saying they rescinded General Order 7 (which is the only death penalty the Federation has) due to seeing the same Talosians transmission the hearing was seeing.

Yes, I know that. And as you said, all that was rescinded was the death sentence for visiting the planet. What about Spock's actions of sending false information to the Enterprise, stealing the ship, and kidnapping Pike? Rescinding General Order 7 wouldn't take any of that into account. But of course, as has been stated ad infinitum, Starfleet turns a blind eye because Spock had good intentions...

 

[Warped9]

No he wasn't but if you watch the episode ALL the way till the end, You would have heard Uhura announcing a message from Starfleet Command saying they rescinded General Order 7 (which is the only death penalty the Federation has) due to seeing the same Talosians transmission the hearing was seeing.

Yes, I know that. And as you said, all that was rescinded was the death sentence for visiting the planet. What about Spock's actions of sending false information to the Enterprise, stealing the ship, and kidnapping Pike? Rescinding General Order 7 wouldn't take any of that into account. But of course, as has been stated ad infinitum, Starfleet turns a blind eye because Spock had good intentions...

The thing is we never got to see what happened offscreen after the main story was done. It's conceivable that Spock was called on the carpet at the nearest starbase afterward only it's something they never showed. It's possible he was eventually exonerated, but we never got to see the procedures dealing with that. It usually wasn't something done story wise back then. Today they might likely show it.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

No he wasn't but if you watch the episode ALL the way till the end, You would have heard Uhura announcing a message from Starfleet Command saying they rescinded General Order 7 (which is the only death penalty the Federation has) due to seeing the same Talosians transmission the hearing was seeing.

Yes, one of the lamest dodges in the history of Star Trek writing.

The entire envelope Roddenberry wrote to turn "The Cage" into a two-parter is shot through with nonsense and illogic - but what the hell, he did it in hurry - and this final little Emily Litella denouement is just amazingly foolish bullshit. People who find it acceptable have no standing to criticize...well, just about any piece of screenwriting, much less the plot of Abrams's Star Trek.

 

[kkozoriz1]

You're absolutely right Dennis. A $150,000,000 movie written 40 years after what is essentially a clip episode of a TV series shouldn't be held to a higher standard in any way, shape or form. It should be looked at in exactly the same way, as a way to save money on a $180,000 an episode television series. The same illogic in storytelling should not only be expected but encouraged.

 

[Captain Mike]

But you still can't refute what I originally said...implausible actions by Star Trek characters that never get punished is a strong tradition within the franchise.

Yes, I know that. And as you said, all that was rescinded was the death sentence for visiting the planet. What about Spock's actions of sending false information to the Enterprise, stealing the ship, and kidnapping Pike? Rescinding General Order 7 wouldn't take any of that into account. But of course, as has been stated ad infinitum, Starfleet turns a blind eye because Spock had good intentions...

As if that has never happened in any other show in television history... It's not only in Star Trek that you ever see that development. And I agree with other posters you DON'T see what happens offscreen or in between episodes, unlike todays TV episodes are strung together in the way they are.

Yes, one of the lamest dodges in the history of Star Trek writing.

The entire envelope Roddenberry wrote to turn "The Cage" into a two-parter is shot through with nonsense and illogic - but what the hell, he did it in hurry - and this final little Emily Litella denouement is just amazingly foolish bullshit. People who find it acceptable have no standing to criticize...well, just about any piece of screenwriting, much less the plot of Abrams's Star Trek.

So you are saying the end of Amok Time is also bullshit because T'pau was so, if you can say a vulcan, impressed by Kirk that she sent a message to Starfleet Command asking for the Enterprise to being diverted? I call that "glorifying a character moment"...
At least the TOS didn't have the most inane career jumps in Academy history. If that steps on your "obviously" professional career as a film critic I apologize.......

 

[Devon]

You're absolutely right Dennis. A $150,000,000 movie written 40 years after what is essentially a clip episode of a TV series shouldn't be held to a higher standard in any way, shape or form. It should be looked at in exactly the same way, as a way to save money on a $180,000 an episode television series. The same illogic in storytelling should not only be expected but encouraged.

When you're dealing with human beings writing things, I don't care who you are, there are bounds to be slip ups to one degree or another. To expect flaw free stories is only going to set you up for let down, no matter if it's 1960 or 2010. However, the only difference being is that in 1960 there weren't internet discussion boards in which the dumbest details were magnified 15 times the amount that they are worth. People merely enjoyed or didn't enjoy what they saw and moved on instead of deciding to put their little critics costume on at the end and bother people with every little "flaw," thus why some people don't want to admit that past Trek can be held up to and picked up apart with the same selective scrutiny that they decided to hold Trek XI against (and I expect no less than someone to try to say "Well some people don't want to admit that Trek XI can be held up to scrutiny and picked apart too.")

 

[F. King Daniel]

You're absolutely right Dennis. A $150,000,000 movie written 40 years after what is essentially a clip episode of a TV series shouldn't be held to a higher standard in any way, shape or form. It should be looked at in exactly the same way, as a way to save money on a $180,000 an episode television series. The same illogic in storytelling should not only be expected but encouraged.

Don't judge Star Trek XI based on prior Star Treks.

Don't judge Star Trek XI based on other blockbuster movies.

Judge it by kkozoriz1's nonsensical and often contradictory standards! Spock's spineless because he listened to a woman! Kirk's was wrong to save the day! Chekov's age is wrong! STXI didn't adhere to strict military protocol! Delta Vega doesn't match my star charts! Chekov's wrong to know how to operate a transporter! Warp speed to too fast! Dumbing down! Everything's stupid! Trek is dying a slow death!

 

[Ghrakh]

While those specific things have not happened in other Trek shows/movies the spirit of those things are part of Trek tradition. In Voyager Tom Paris is court-martialed but ends up being Voyager's main pilot. In the Menagerie Spock lies and steals Captain Pike and the Enterprise and all is forgiven. Data is manipulated by a signal from his creator and steals the bridge and steals the Enterprise to get to the planet he maker is on. Then nothing happens to him. Kirk could go insane in one episode and be back in the Captains chair by the end of it.

Which episode (or for fairness sake, 2-parter) did all those occur in? I missed that one.

Oh, you have to piece together bits from decades of trek, from dozens of different writers, and conflate them all together simply to handwave the stupidity away. btw, comparing characters that have already earned their place (and, in many cases, are being manipulated against their will) with ones simply being shoehorned into a character "arc" solely to arrive at the scripted end is pretty tenuous. Most of the examples aren't relevant. The only possible one is Tom Paris, but he didn't exactly go drooling and hi-fiving for the helm opportunity, plus he got demoted later anyway, iirc.

No mention of Wesley being almost kicked out of the academy. If Locarno's team were in the new movie and did that maneuver, they'd get medals and instant promotion to command for their "daring" or some shit.

 

[JarodRussell]

You're absolutely right Dennis. A $150,000,000 movie written 40 years after what is essentially a clip episode of a TV series shouldn't be held to a higher standard in any way, shape or form. It should be looked at in exactly the same way, as a way to save money on a $180,000 an episode television series. The same illogic in storytelling should not only be expected but encouraged.

Don't judge Star Trek XI based on prior Star Treks.

Don't judge Star Trek XI based on other blockbuster movies.

I've seen both prior Star Treks and other blockbuster movies that were WAY better than Star Trek XI.

While those specific things have not happened in other Trek shows/movies the spirit of those things are part of Trek tradition. In Voyager Tom Paris is court-martialed but ends up being Voyager's main pilot. In the Menagerie Spock lies and steals Captain Pike and the Enterprise and all is forgiven. Data is manipulated by a signal from his creator and steals the bridge and steals the Enterprise to get to the planet he maker is on. Then nothing happens to him. Kirk could go insane in one episode and be back in the Captains chair by the end of it.

Which episode (or for fairness sake, 2-parter) did all those occur in? I missed that one.

Oh, you have to piece together bits from decades of trek, from dozens of different writers, and conflate them all together simply to handwave the stupidity away. btw, comparing characters that have already earned their place (and, in many cases, are being manipulated against their will) with ones simply being shoehorned into a character "arc" solely to arrive at the scripted end is pretty tenuous. Most of the examples aren't relevant. The only possible one is Tom Paris, but he didn't exactly go drooling and hi-fiving for the helm opportunity, plus he got demoted later anyway, iirc.

No mention of Wesley being almost kicked out of the academy. If Locarno's team were in the new movie and did that maneuver, they'd get medals and instant promotion to command for their "daring" or some shit.

Agreed.

 

[kkozoriz1]

Let's see, 79 episodes at ~$180,000 per and adjusted for inflation comes out to about $86,000,000 or a bit more than half of one two hour movie. So, even with almost double the budget for all of the Original Series and a lot longer time to produce two hours running time, we can't expect that the writing should be a bit more coherent than two hours of TOS? How long did they have to write XI? Surely it would be more than it took to write two one hour episodes. But we should just accept plot holes the size of a planet just because it's Star Trek and "all the other ones had them too?"

 

[Amaris]

Let's see, 79 episodes at ~$180,000 per and adjusted for inflation comes out to about $86,000,000 or a bit more than half of one two hour movie. So, even with almost double the budget for all of the Original Series and a lot longer time to produce two hours running time, we can't expect that the writing should be a bit more coherent than two hours of TOS? How long did they have to write XI? Surely it would be more than it took to write two one hour episodes. But we should just accept plot holes the size of a planet just because it's Star Trek and "all the other ones had them too?"

Yes, because as Star Trek: Generations showed us, TV production is the same as movie production.

Seriously, guys, you're reaching really, really far to hate on this movie. You don't like it, I get it. We get it. Everyone gets it. This just keeps going in a loop. I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned lapel pins. I mean, if we're going to get inane and pedantic, let's really do it right.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

This just keeps going in a loop. I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned lapel pins. I mean, if we're going to get inane and pedantic, let's really do it right.

Lapel pins? Is there something to nitpick that's been missed?

 

[Devon]

Which episode (or for fairness sake, 2-parter) did all those occur in? I missed that one.

You're trying to move the goal post here. The fact that these things happened in past Trek changes nothing.

Oh, you have to piece together bits from decades of trek, from dozens of different writers, and conflate them all together simply to handwave the stupidity away.

Not at all, they happened no matter if you wish to think otherwise.

 

[Amaris]

This just keeps going in a loop. I'm surprised someone hasn't mentioned lapel pins. I mean, if we're going to get inane and pedantic, let's really do it right.

Lapel pins? Is there something to nitpick that's been missed?

Just referring to the mindset that led to the fiasco that is flag lapel pins. Remember that one?

Yeah, same deal.

 

[Aragorn]

Is the original Jeyl not still around?

No, he's still around, unfortunately. Just pointing out the interchangeable parts around here.

 

[JarodRussell]

Is the original Jeyl not still around?

No, he's still around, unfortunately.

Geez.

 

[Sparky]

Let's see, 79 episodes at ~$180,000 per and adjusted for inflation comes out to about $86,000,000 or a bit more than half of one two hour movie. So, even with almost double the budget for all of the Original Series and a lot longer time to produce two hours running time, we can't expect that the writing should be a bit more coherent than two hours of TOS? How long did they have to write XI? Surely it would be more than it took to write two one hour episodes. But we should just accept plot holes the size of a planet just because it's Star Trek and "all the other ones had them too?"

So you admit that from your point of view that 2 hours of TOS is incoherent. No wonder you have problems.

 

[Captain Mike]

^......

 

[Ryan8bit]

The fact that these things happened in past Trek changes nothing.

Wait, I thought the argument was something along the lines that if it happened before in Trek it was acceptable now? I don't see any goalposts being shifted.

 

[JarodRussell]

The fact that these things happened in past Trek changes nothing.

Wait, I thought the argument was something along the lines that if it happened before in Trek it was acceptable now? I don't see any goalposts being shifted.

Well, Devon is the one shifting them.