Okay, fine. I'll play ball, what would YOU say I was doing?
Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?
- Thread starter ReadyAndWilling
- Start date
Okay, fine. I'll play ball, what would YOU say I was doing?
Did you see the winkeye smiley? That indicated an attempt at light-hearted humour.
What is this, High School?
So you're going to hold a grudge, just to throw it back in my face.
Of course it's an option, it's why I haven't bothered responding directly to Anwar in this thread even though he attempted to bait me several times.
Yeah, it's all part of the evil Hater agenda. Myself, RyuRoots, zar and Saito S have been plotting this all along in PMs, and soon we will use this thread to bring down the entire Voyager fandom!
Seriously, I have an agenda? What the fuck are you even trying to imply by that?
I shall respond to your posts when I see fit to do so, such as when you make erroneous claims about Star Trek writers. If you do not wish to read my posts, then set me to ignore.
Nope, I said I'm done, and I'm done. I know it won't lead anywhere, so I'm content to let you think whatever you wish to.
Yeah, it's all part of the evil Hater agenda. Myself, RyuRoots, zar and Saito S have been plotting this all along in PMs, and soon we will use this thread to bring down the entire Voyager fandom!
No, you fool! Don't tell them about it! You'll ruin our plans!
The general level of analysis is pitiful. I've been skipping around because it's not rewarding reading, but this at least tries for a little more honesty.
1. Apotheosis, space war, empires falling, etc. Space opera, in other words. I like me some space opera too but if they wanted more DS9 they'd have been better off making more DS9.
2. In other words, competing with DS9 made it look bad. If you say so.
3. The Star Trek vision of the future has its roots in the Sixties. Of course it's getting out of date. There's no reason to think it's any truer of DS9 than Voyager.
4. Since Voyager was on UPN, it certainly had more network meddling than a syndicated show. That's given. Shocking as it may seem, sometimes the suits are right. As near as I can make out, it is controversy that brings out the worst in them. Ditching Chakotay's electronic hallucinator religion was the character's last chance for a real contribution. And Chakotary wasn't a Neelix or Kim, his dramatic weakness hurt the show.
5. Less like DS9, in other words.
6. No, Voyager wasn't serialized like DS9.
7. This is pretty much the same thing, except it thinks doing comedy is a bad thing. If you say so.
8. This is incredibly stupid. I've seen posters talk about patched up ships!
Just because someone lacks the sense to wonder where the patches are going to come from (floating by in the interstellar void?) doesn't mean they should be taken seriously. Again this is an incredibly blatant double standard. There's no way Voyager's replicators are any sillier than TNG's or DS9's. The whole notion of hardships is and was ridiculous. But people say they wanted more ridiculous? This is too crazy to be true.
9. Again, this is saying, not DS9. DS9's notion of character development is turning Sisko into a god, Odo into a god, Bashir into a superhuman, Kira into whatever seems cool, even a kind of Jewish stepdaughter to Hitler!
10. Seven was so inconsistent the character should have been controversial. The cat suit was squarely in the Star Trek tradition of miniskirts. This double standard requires a level of dishonesty that is truly remarkable.
11. Star Trek has always had some abominable stories. Thankfully, most of them could be skipped because the series was episodic. The difficulty is understanding how someone could like a serialized show whose Big Story is a disaster.
12. Another shameless double standard. Prophets, anyone?
13. Borg fatigue? There were, what? four episodes featuring the Borg Collective? Scorpion, Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero and Endgame? After First Contact, if there's no Borg Queen, the Borg aren't on stage. It's absurd claims like this that makes you think the real objections are not articulated.
Liking DS9 doesn't require fatuous criticism of Voyager.
1. Apotheosis, space war, empires falling, etc. Space opera, in other words. I like me some space opera too but if they wanted more DS9 they'd have been better off making more DS9.
2. In other words, competing with DS9 made it look bad. If you say so.
3. The Star Trek vision of the future has its roots in the Sixties. Of course it's getting out of date. There's no reason to think it's any truer of DS9 than Voyager.
4. Since Voyager was on UPN, it certainly had more network meddling than a syndicated show. That's given. Shocking as it may seem, sometimes the suits are right. As near as I can make out, it is controversy that brings out the worst in them. Ditching Chakotay's electronic hallucinator religion was the character's last chance for a real contribution. And Chakotary wasn't a Neelix or Kim, his dramatic weakness hurt the show.
5. Less like DS9, in other words.
6. No, Voyager wasn't serialized like DS9.
7. This is pretty much the same thing, except it thinks doing comedy is a bad thing. If you say so.
8. This is incredibly stupid. I've seen posters talk about patched up ships!
Just because someone lacks the sense to wonder where the patches are going to come from (floating by in the interstellar void?) doesn't mean they should be taken seriously. Again this is an incredibly blatant double standard. There's no way Voyager's replicators are any sillier than TNG's or DS9's. The whole notion of hardships is and was ridiculous. But people say they wanted more ridiculous? This is too crazy to be true.9. Again, this is saying, not DS9. DS9's notion of character development is turning Sisko into a god, Odo into a god, Bashir into a superhuman, Kira into whatever seems cool, even a kind of Jewish stepdaughter to Hitler!
10. Seven was so inconsistent the character should have been controversial. The cat suit was squarely in the Star Trek tradition of miniskirts. This double standard requires a level of dishonesty that is truly remarkable.
11. Star Trek has always had some abominable stories. Thankfully, most of them could be skipped because the series was episodic. The difficulty is understanding how someone could like a serialized show whose Big Story is a disaster.
12. Another shameless double standard. Prophets, anyone?
13. Borg fatigue? There were, what? four episodes featuring the Borg Collective? Scorpion, Dark Frontier, Unimatrix Zero and Endgame? After First Contact, if there's no Borg Queen, the Borg aren't on stage. It's absurd claims like this that makes you think the real objections are not articulated.
Liking DS9 doesn't require fatuous criticism of Voyager.
Actually, there were 16 episodes that featured the Borg, and that's excluding the ones that used holograms or hallucinations. If you include those, it jumps to 22. Source is Memory Alpha. It IS just a quick once-over of the list, but I'm fairly sure that they were a focus in more than four of them.
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg#Appearances
Don't worry, our plans are so foolproof that they wont be able to stop them! Voyager fandom will be destroyed by the end of the week.
Actually, the C4 and nail varnish wont arrive until Friday, so it may cut into next week.
You never even bothered to consider my idea of making the other VOY crew be Romulans instead of Maquis...
(and I'm being serious over this, no baiting)
VOY was the right idea, wrong time and place.
As for the Borg, they just don't really work as a recurring enemy. They're too boring and dead-end creatively. And TNG built them up too much to feature in a show about one ship with no allies or armadas.
(and I'm being serious over this, no baiting)
VOY was the right idea, wrong time and place.
As for the Borg, they just don't really work as a recurring enemy. They're too boring and dead-end creatively. And TNG built them up too much to feature in a show about one ship with no allies or armadas.
Okay, guys. Time to hit those "Ignore" buttons...
number6
Vice Admiral
I don't understand the bile this show gets. I will say that it's my least favourite and frequently didn't live up to my expectations, but that doesn't mean I didn't watch it and didn't enjoy it. When I went to Star Trek conventions when VOY was on the air, there were a lot of fans dressed up like VOY characters and many younger women being inspired by Janeway, or Torres, or 7o'9. Obviously this show moved some people the way other shows did for me and I assume for most of you as well.
As disappointing as some Trek episodes can be (and all the shows had them), you can't take that away from people who loved the show and got into the whole Trek thing as a result, much like people who enjoyed ST:XI are getting into Star Trek.
I don't think that makes the show bad, especially when it influences people in a positive way. I would rather hang out with someone like that than the people who dress like Klingons and act like assholes because they're "in character."
I think it's pretty disrespectful to constantly pile on people for liking something that some purists can't accept as being just as popular or even more.
We are all Star Trek fans, aren't we?
As disappointing as some Trek episodes can be (and all the shows had them), you can't take that away from people who loved the show and got into the whole Trek thing as a result, much like people who enjoyed ST:XI are getting into Star Trek.
I don't think that makes the show bad, especially when it influences people in a positive way. I would rather hang out with someone like that than the people who dress like Klingons and act like assholes because they're "in character."
I think it's pretty disrespectful to constantly pile on people for liking something that some purists can't accept as being just as popular or even more.
We are all Star Trek fans, aren't we?
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At the risk of opening a can of worms...
I agree with everything you said.
In fact, I generally feel the same way. And for the record (ahem), I do LIKE Voyager. I think it was a show with more good than bad, even though I feel it wasn't as well executed on the whole as TNG or DS9 and that it squandered some of its most promising potential. But I watched it faithfully, every week, and it remains my third favorite behind those two.
As for "constantly piling on" people for loving Voyager, or saying it's their favorite... I actually haven't personally seen that all that often. Ever? Absolutely. A bit more than with other Trek shows? Maybe (except ENT, which - in my experience - is the most universally disliked of all five). But I've found the perceived level of negativity itself to be somewhat overrated.
I will (obviously
) argue with people on specific points about Voyager or other Trek shows (though this thread and others like it have more been about the nature and amount of criticism of the show, rather than being ABOUT the show itself), but I can safely say I've never said that someone is wrong for liking something I don't care for (or, in this case, for simply liking VOY more than I do).
At the risk of opening a can of worms...
I agree with everything you said.
In fact, I generally feel the same way. And for the record (ahem), I do LIKE Voyager. I think it was a show with more good than bad, even though I feel it wasn't as well executed on the whole as TNG or DS9 and that it squandered some of its most promising potential. But I watched it faithfully, every week, and it remains my third favorite behind those two.
As for "constantly piling on" people for loving Voyager, or saying it's their favorite... I actually haven't personally seen that all that often. Ever? Absolutely. A bit more than with other Trek shows? Maybe (except ENT, which - in my experience - is the most universally disliked of all five). But I've found the perceived level of negativity itself to be somewhat overrated.
I will (obviously
This is exactly how I feel, and I agree with both of you.
I think you misunderstood. Cepstrum's mention of Trek fatigue had nothing to do with the "vision".
As for the rest of your post: RyuRoots already pointed out your huge inaccuracy about Borg episodes, and the rest is all juvenile anti-DS9/serialization tripe and Anwar-esque "double standard" accusations. Your entire "analysis" is ad hominem nonsense. You're simply using the DS9 scapegoat to avoid the points themselves, all of which would still be perfectly valid had DS9 never existed at all. Aside from you, there have been hardly any mentions of DS9 in this thread.
Well, we're not piling on people; we're piling on their piling on of our piling on of the show, if you catch my drift.
number6
Vice Admiral
This isn't exclusive to the VOY but to every new Trek that comes out. Somehow the fans of whatever new comes out are always dismissed as liking explosions and shiny things. The Trek Boards were apeshit when VOY was on the air, and who can forget when ENT was on and how people are losing thier shit over the new film. I gotta defend this for the simple reason that people do like it and get involved in Trek as a result and the point of it is: None of it Suxxx. That's right. None. Sure not every episode is good, but it embraces the same ideals as the better episodes. I can't see how some people are reduced to fits of blind rage.
Well that phenomenon is aptly explained by John Gabriel's Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory (google it if you're unfamiliar with it).
Yeah, it's all part of the evil Hater agenda. Myself, RyuRoots, zar and Saito S have been plotting this all along in PMs, and soon we will use this thread to bring down the entire Voyager fandom!
I am SHOCKED! SHOCKED that you forgot to name me as part of this little attempted coup. As you full well know, I've been just as active in the PMs as RyuRoots, zar and Saito S. I just haven't been as active in the thread since you all told me you needed someone working behind the scenes. Without me, all your attempts would be futile and meaningless.
Why do you hate me?!
Wait a minute! Since you hate me and I love DS9, you clearly hate DS9 just as much as you hate VOY. GASP! You secretly want to destroy DS9 fandom as well! Don't you?! Admit it you hater! After all, I've said it, so it must be true.
HATER!!!!!
like tng didn't become the picard/data show what was ok, they were great characters and actors behind them. sisko/worf/daxes were neither. it's certainly ok that a show focuses on the most memorable characters.
VOY could still have been better regarded if it were standalone stories, as long as they managed to give the show its own identity and not let it become TNG in the Delta Quadrant. VOY never really found its own identity and this was part of the greater problem. Not being serialized wasn't the real issue.
A lot of the backlash for this show came in the recent years due to NuBSG and now SGU, but once they realized NuBSG wasn't perfect either and had a ton of flaws that really dragged the show down in the end, and SGU got annoying within a few episodes (although I like it) has calmed that a bit.
But yes, Cepstrum is right in that the show was suffering from fatigue. The Producers felt rushed, the writers felt rushed, Trek cannot really support more than one show at a time (it's just not that mainstream, I'm sorry) and the premise needed to be refined a bit (it needed work). They should've waited until DS9 was finished like Berman wanted and then do it.
Hey, it worked for Stargate...
A lot of the backlash for this show came in the recent years due to NuBSG and now SGU, but once they realized NuBSG wasn't perfect either and had a ton of flaws that really dragged the show down in the end, and SGU got annoying within a few episodes (although I like it) has calmed that a bit.
But yes, Cepstrum is right in that the show was suffering from fatigue. The Producers felt rushed, the writers felt rushed, Trek cannot really support more than one show at a time (it's just not that mainstream, I'm sorry) and the premise needed to be refined a bit (it needed work). They should've waited until DS9 was finished like Berman wanted and then do it.
Hey, it worked for Stargate...
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