Why is the Trek community so negative about Voyager?

[AuntKate]

I know DS9 is good and have seen almost all of it. There are some episodes that are truly exceptional and others that are just fun. My biggest dislike is the fascination with the bogus Bajoran religion, which I find just too tedious to bear. I really understand that DS9 is a special version of Trek, but to see it in order, I'd need to buy the dvd's, and right now I have other financial priorities!

 

[ramonasno]

AuntKate, if you would live in the Netherlands, I would be on my way right now!

i actually have an extra box of season 6 (i ordered it twice, by accident) but we have a PAL/NP?? thing going on you being in the USA and me in Europe. Too bad, you're DS9 time will come, and for now, you have VOY. What does a person need more?

Back on the subject:
I've just watched a couple of eps from the first season(been sick for 3 days now) and I'm all back in VOY again. But some eps I have to pass, the Lizzie episode, it's just too much for me

 

[propita]

Just a couple of comments.

I don't think there needed to be HUGE tension between the Maquis and SF on the ship, to the point of violence. These people were not stupid. They knew that they were, collectively, on their own against potentially everyone else. Tension between methods to be used and approaches to problems--that makes sense. Should they use the "StarFleet way" or the "Maquis way"? Well, SF would win out most time since Janeway was Captain and Chakotay backed her, knowing that there could only be one captain. When you're fighting an external enemy, the last thing you need is infighting.

Side note--in the latest issue of SyFy magazine, Lance Reddick (Abadon from "LOST" and Broyles from "Fringe") said a few things about ST. Voyager is his favorite ST show. Janeway is his favorite captain since first-season Kirk. He really admires Mulgrew's take on Janeway and considers that the writing took a few seasons to catch up to her. Overall, he reads as a very classy guy who put thought into his character, and his character's motivation and background.

Comparing that last sentence to Voyager, I think Reddick was given the opportunity to do so (thankfully, because he's a pleasure to watch). I don't think many of the actors on Voyager were really given that opportunity; rather, they were told "This is your character."

There have been plenty of posts in this thread regarding UPN's constant interference with the show. I'm not saying that the people named are not in some way responsible for the problems with the show, but how come there's nothing about the UPN execs who thought they actually knew something about plot and characterization? Who were/are they?

 

[PsychoPere]

It falls apart in the aspect of the mythology; they claimed that the Cylons had a plan [...]

The "and they have a plan" intro, however, was a marketing creation. RDM himself hated it. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the creative choices of a show based on something the executive producers and writers weren't involved in deciding.

(To be clear, that last sentence is intended as a more general comment than suggesting that is precisely what you were doing.)

 

[AuntKate]

Who knows who they were? Their names very likely didn't appear on the screen. The sad fact is that they probably know very little about character and plot. All they were interested in was the viewing numbers and pleasing the "imaginary" target audience of males ages 18-35.

 

[zar]

. They destroyed the image of the borg

Oh please! First Contact destroyed the Borg.
They won't attack us if they don't consider us a threat?
They're walking around with phasers and they're not considered a threat? Add to that the introduction of the Borg Queen and you can see it was FC that really screwed up the Borg.

"They won't attack us if they don't consider us a threat" definitely wasn't new in First Contact. I read the Borg novel Vendetta recently and this was prominent there... it was published in 1991, 5 years (I think) before FC.

You could argue that Voyager "fixed" the problem of the Queen by establishing that she could be easily replaced.

 

[Anwar]

The "Borg won't attack unless provoked" thing was from their very first appearance.

VOY would've worked out better if they had bothered explaining just what the Maquis way was, and how it differed from Starfleet.

 

[zar]

VOY's audience thought it was dumb how the VOY aliens kept showing up, but have no problem with the Cylons continuing to track the Galactica fleet. Double standard.

This is silly. The VOY aliens had no reason to devote their fleet to follow a ship randomly passing through their space, not to mention no means of duplicating the multiple events that suddenly jumped Voyager "x years closer to home" -- whereas the Cylons were at war with the only remaining fleet of humans.

Can we stop talking about BSG? The premises of these 2 shows are similar only on the simplest level. Every comparison is by default a weak argument.

VOY would've worked out better if they had bothered explaining just what the Maquis way was, and how it differed from Starfleet.

Didn't DS9 do that?

 

[darkwing_duck1]

She believed he was going to talk before that happened. Chakotay knew he wasn't buying the bluff and stepped in. Would Janeway have allowed it to happen? We don't find out for sure so it's a matter of personal opinion. Mine is she would have stopped it at the very last moment. When she tells Chakotay later that she "went too far" it's because she was letting her anger get the better of her instead of following the Starfleet principles she had dedicated her life to.

Those same principles would have required her to turn him, Ransom, and all the other conspirators over to the aliens in any event.

I agree. Unfortunately, given the difficulties in communication and the fact the aliens were attacking Voyager at every opportunity the chances for a diplomatic turnover were slim...

This is going to sound cold, but she could have unilaterally just LET them be taken, instead of protecting them. The open question is whether or not the aliens would have stopped with just the humans who actually committed atrocities or gone after ALL the humans (including Voyager's crew).

 

[ramonasno]

I guess it would've been nice if there were some episodes about the Maquis. Maybe a Maquis ensign screwing something up because he didn't know what the " Starfleet way" was. I'd like that better, that it would be by accident, instead of on purpose. When I win a lottery, I'll produce an episode

 

[ramonasno]

Those same principles would have required her to turn him, Ransom, and all the other conspirators over to the aliens in any event.

I agree. Unfortunately, given the difficulties in communication and the fact the aliens were attacking Voyager at every opportunity the chances for a diplomatic turnover were slim...

This is going to sound cold, but she could have unilaterally just LET them be taken, instead of protecting them. The open question is whether or not the aliens would have stopped with just the humans who actually committed atrocities or gone after ALL the humans (including Voyager's crew).

From what I understood in "Equinox" the aliens wanted all the humans. But mabye that wasn't literally said

 

[darkwing_duck1]

FTL that couldn't be tracked and blinked you anywhere, etc).

And you are an expert on how FTL drives work? The "jump drive" of nuG is probably more realisitic than the "warp drive" of Trek, given what we know about physics.

Moore just couldn't stand the idea of the VOY crew being capable of working together for the common good.

Finish the thougt: "without friction..."

 

[Praxius]

I'm curious, did you set out to watch it or did you see a couple of episodes and think it looked interesting enough to warrant a full viewing? Because I watched DS9 because I was a fan of TNG for as long as I can remember, so I watched DS9 when it was on and found myself hooked from season 4 on. I'm not sure if I'd have bothered watching it had I not already developed an affinity for the universe from TNG.

I got into TNG around the age of 11 or 12 (1991-92) and never gave DS9 a chance until well after TNG was off the air because I didn't have the time to get involved into another show at the time.

My wife had no interest at all in star trek and considered it your stereo-typical view: a nerd show for losers that was pointless and had no substance (Kind of like what I feel towards Star Wars) ...... but eventually through her doing something on the computer or dabbling in her hobbies, I had DS9 running in the background, watching it through, which after a week or so, I started noticing her watching the show and actually getting into the characters, etc.

When it was all over, she was sad that there was no more..... just this past Monday, we decided to run through DS9 again now that she has the background of TNG and finished watching Voyager to know the befores and afters.

However to admit more clearly, before I got into DS9 again since the 90's, I was watching Voyager on TV which she held a little bit of interest in, but wasn't following it through at all and only would watch it if there was nothing else to do or if the episode seemed interesting...... after about two weeks of doing this, I figured that if she was interested in these random Voyager episodes, I should haul her into DS9 and hook her before she lost interest.

After going through DS9, TNG and finally coming to the end of our watching of voyager, to be honest, she lost interest in Voyager somewhere around season 6 and just wanted it to end..... and wasn't overly impressed with the finale, nor was I (which was the one and only time I watched the finale)

I don't think that's necessarily true. Dr Shmully changed a lot over the course of the show, and Seven changed a fair bit. I think that Tom did change from being a bit of a hot-head smartass into a more mature man. B'Elanna had a lot of false starts and her episodes constantly repeated the same growth over and over again, but by the final season I think she had changed a fair bit. Janeway changed a little. Kes changed from an innocent young woman and became a bit more independent by the time she was kicked off the show.

Harry, Chakotay, Neelix and Tuvok didn't change much, especially Harry. Obviously, DS9 did a better job with character development, but I reject that Voyager had none whatsoever.

You're viewing what I post too extreme.... I never said Voyager had no character development whatsoever, I said "For the most part" the characters changed very little compared to characters in DS9 and TNG.

It was this depth of character evolution and this sense that time actually passed from one episode to the other and the characters grew from those experiences they went through that sucked me into the show..... that what happened before will some how affect what is to come...... with Voyager it was all just static and isolated in single or two-part episodes and after it was all said and done..... the next episode continued off as though very little happened.

Sure the Doc got his mobile, Seven came aboard, Kes got the boot, some borg children came aboard.... and yes..... TNG and DS9 had a few episodes that seemed to carry this same type of fault where something might not carry off into future episodes...... but Voyager just seemed to be much worse at it..... as though you can take any episodes in any of the seasons and shuffle them around, out of order.... and you still wouldn't be lost or feel as though you missed something.

^ That reminds me of the basic layout of a cheap sitcom and while others enjoy not having to keep things in order and like the isolated episode stories, I personally don't and that's why Voyager is 3rd place below DS9 and TNG.

 

[Anwar]

And you are an expert on how FTL drives work? The "jump drive" of nuG is probably more realisitic than the "warp drive" of Trek, given what we know about physics.

I'm saying that with what was already stated about Trek FTL, wouldn't have worked in Moore's story.

See, shows like Farscape and Blakes Seven had the advantages of being the first/only shows set in their universe(s) so they could do what they wanted with their ability to move through space. Past Trek established how easy it is to track another ship's Warp Drive. Having VOY somehow able to just warp away with their enemies not being able to track them would just be WTF.

Finish the thougt: "without friction..."

Sorry, but if an alien warship is targeting me I'm going to care more about survival than how I'd never work with the guy who scuffed my shoes last week.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

Finish the thougt: "without friction..."

Sorry, but if an alien warship is targeting me I'm going to care more about survival than how I'd never work with the guy who scuffed my shoes last week.

Provisionally agreed, but once the alien warship is dealt with, I still have to deal with the fact I don't like the guy, or his friends, and that they keep giving me the crappiest duties on the roster for the shift, etc.

 

[kimc]

Those same principles would have required her to turn him, Ransom, and all the other conspirators over to the aliens in any event.

I agree. Unfortunately, given the difficulties in communication and the fact the aliens were attacking Voyager at every opportunity the chances for a diplomatic turnover were slim...

This is going to sound cold, but she could have unilaterally just LET them be taken, instead of protecting them. The open question is whether or not the aliens would have stopped with just the humans who actually committed atrocities or gone after ALL the humans (including Voyager's crew).

Well that is the questions, isn't it? Unfortunately, if they wanted all humans by the time they figured it out it would have been too late.

Besides, given the outcry over Tuvix (happy he's dead!) I doubt Janeway turning over the Equinox crew would have gained the show any more support.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

I agree. Unfortunately, given the difficulties in communication and the fact the aliens were attacking Voyager at every opportunity the chances for a diplomatic turnover were slim...

This is going to sound cold, but she could have unilaterally just LET them be taken, instead of protecting them. The open question is whether or not the aliens would have stopped with just the humans who actually committed atrocities or gone after ALL the humans (including Voyager's crew).

Well that is the questions, isn't it? Unfortunately, if they wanted all humans by the time they figured it out it would have been too late.

Agreed. It's not a problem with an easy answer.

Besides, given the outcry over Tuvix (happy he's dead!) I doubt Janeway turning over the Equinox crew would have gained the show any more support.

The two situations are not at all comparable. Tuvix had committed no crime. The crew of the Equinox were murderers.

 

[kimc]

The two situations are not at all comparable. Tuvix had committed no crime. The crew of the Equinox were murderers.

I agree they're not comparable but you'd be surprised how often they're mentioned in the same breath - especially when it comes to "why not to like Janeway".

 

[TheGodBen]

The "and they have a plan" intro, however, was a marketing creation. RDM himself hated it. I don't think it's entirely fair to blame the creative choices of a show based on something the executive producers and writers weren't involved in deciding.

I don't let the "and they have a plan" thing bother me, but if you're a new viewer it's important to keep it in mind that they don't have a plan. The Cylons are childlike and are angry, but not sure why, and if that had been explained at the beginning and people hadn't been expecting the Cylons to be evil masterminds, people wouldn't have been so upset. The show works much better if you accept that the Cylons are trying to wipe out the fleet from the beginning and that they're not letting them escape because of some convoluted plan that revolves around the contents of Helo's pants.

 

[stj]

You'll have to find an interview, podcast, or some sort of comment by Ronald D. Moore or David Eick to support that claim.

There is a fundamental disagreement about what constitutes evidence here. You will only accept the official testimony. I weigh what is actually on screen much more heavily. The show is what is actually done and the podcasts are just talk. Always, always watch what they do, instead of just listening to what they say. This applies to more than TV reviewing.

And when we look at what is done, we find characters from Voyager. Six is derived from Seven of Nine. Seven's appearances to Ransom and his subsequent mystical regeneration are paralleld by Six's appearances to Baltar. Six's sexuality is derived from Moore's view of Seven (if you read his nutty diatribe, it is plain he couldn't look above Jeri Ryan's neck.) Roslin is derived from Janeway and
Adama is derived from Chakotay, which is why we get mutiny against Janeway and J/C. (Yes, both is ludicrous but Moore just isn't a very good writer.)

Starbuck is dervied from DS9's Kira Nerys (not a good thing, as both characters were unbelievable,) and Baltar was derived from Lost in Space Dr. Zachary Smith. The last is a good example of how writers may not conciously understand the influences on them. Which is why the official version is irrelevant. Nonetheless, most significant characters on BSG are from Voyager or direct reactions to Voyager or don't really have much of an internal life to them at all (Tyrol, Boomer/Athena, Apollo.) Given how character driven BSG is (which is not necessarily a good thing, by the way,) this is quite enough.

But there are the story elements created in reaction to perceived failures in Voyager, notably the obsessive mutiny. They even had a mutiny late in the series when it made no sense at all! And, like Voyager, there was a lot of initial talk about the situation, which rapidly disappeared. In Voyager, the absurdity of hardship with replicators was too obvious. In BSG, they just magically went on. Sure, they suddenly discovered some time later the ship was wearing out. It is utterly ridiculous that this would not occur to them and be a major, major factor in planning. This nonsense can only be explained as a deliberate late attempt to perfect the anti-Voyager picture.

Oh, yes.

Fact: I rebutted one poster's position on the Voyager episode Equinox.

Opinion: Criticizing my attitude towards BSG is an answer to that.

Fact: A review thread is popular.

Opinion: Thinking that means it's a good discussion.

Unlike some, I've got the distinction down cold.