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Did Kirk's rather *enthusiastic* execution of Nero bug you?

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What Jack did the first time the 456 came 'round saved the rest of the world from an unstoppable threat. When they came back, their demand was outrageous, but it was the UK govt that decided 10% was acceptable, not Torchwood or Jack.

Do you give up 10% of the population to save 90%? If the enemy was that powerful, most likely, yes. Would I protect my son from collection if he were in the group picked to be turned over, frig yeah! That doesn't mean it's the best solution to the problem, though.

The approach in Torchwood was to say that what they were doing was morally ambiguous. It might have been necessary and justifiable but it wasn't morally right - it was regretable. This is what I would have preferred in this Trek scene - it might be necessary to destroy Nero but the thread criticises Kirk's apparent 'enthusiasm' - taking pleasure in Nero's destruction and the deaths of everybody on board, whoever they may be.

It may be understandable to us - Nero was a maniac and from what we the audience has seen, everybody on board is just as insane and we've seen no people other than a few Romulans (a criticism being that the villains are very one-dimensional) - but Kirk and co don't know that and shouldn't the high-minded Federation take a more balanced view? Shouldn't they have considered the rest of Nero's crew who were given no option to ask for rescue by their insane captain? Like many things in the movie, a slight tweak to the way the scene was portrayed would have had more of a Trek feel to it.
 
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Not based on DVD sales but here's the ratio of box office vs budget (i.e. return on investment)

Gross (world) Budget Earnings Ratio
TWOK $96,800,000.00 $12,000,000.00 8.07
TVH $133,000,000.00 $24,000,000.00 5.54
TSFS $87,000,000.00 $18,000,000.00 4.83
TMP $139,000,000.00 $35,000,000.00 3.97
TUC $96,900,000.00 $27,000,000.00 3.59
FC $150,000,000.00 $46,000,000.00 3.26
GEN $120,000,000.00 $38,000,000.00 3.16
XI $385,680,447.00 $140,000,000.00 2.75
TFF $70,200,000.00 $30,000,000.00 2.34
INS $117,800,000.00 $70,000,000.00 1.68
NEM $67,132,826.00 $60,000,000.00 1.12

Source:
http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/StarTrek.php
 
Shouldn't they have considered the rest of Nero's crew who were given no option to ask for rescue by their insane captain? Like many things in the movie, a slight tweak to the way the scene was portrayed would have had more of a Trek feel to it.

There wasn't time to try and rescue the rest of the Narada's crew (assuming any were even still alive). They couldn't beam them away or send a shuttlecraft. Why should Kirk have risked his OWN crew to save Nero's?
 
Kirk may have felt he had to say something, *anything*, to salvage the situation. I'm not saying he intentionally misled Nero, but who knows. It may have been possible to help Nero if it didn't subsequently become obvious that Nero would attack. Given that, it would obviously be too dangerous to try and help him anyway. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
 
You know what was really appalling? The way Kirk used to end episodes of TOS with a lame joke after some truly harrowing things happened. How many people were killed by Nomad in "The Changeling" - billions? And yet by the close of the show it's all happy jokey time. :rolleyes:
 
You mean the reasons aren’t obvious?
About as obvious as a sledgehammer to the groin, dramatically speaking.

Oh, I thought you were disappointed by the lack of justification. ;)
That's my point. Discovering a moral lesson and having a moral lesson preached to you in episode format are two VERY different things. I've come to find that kind of irritating in my latter years... patronizing, even.

I think it's a little like the changing use of technobabble in later seasons of TNG and Voyager. TOS was very tech heavy as well, but the technology was always in the background, supporting the characters in their struggle for success. By the time we get to Voyager we're bouncing phased polaric tachyon pulses off the starboard impulse manifold in order to produce a resonance attenuation of the space time continuum. Yes, Rick, I know you think I'm a retard, but I DO notice when you're just making shit up, and I DO notice when you're trying to preach a morality tale. The story has a lesson, I get it; just focus on telling the fucking story and let the lesson take care of itself.
[/rant]

I wouldn’t rule out positive reinforcement though.
Neither would I. Except in the context of a TV show, where "positive reinforcement" is identical to "rehash." That's kind of what I mean by preachiness: the lesson of "Let that be your last battlefield" doesn't become a whole lot more poignant if you change the black/white guys to some religious fanatic suicide bombers.

In the end, you can draw any moral lesson you want from any episode of Star Trek, but if the characterizations and interactions are weak, it's just a bad episode. I would invariably prefer a good episode with a shallow message to a bad episode with a good message. To quote another of my favorite shows "We go to church to learn all that stuff, we go to movies to be entertained."

But I am not suggesting ST should go out of its way to contain moral lessons at all.
You're not? Because that's what would be required for Kirk to show mercy to Nero against his own explicit maniacal hatred. The simple fact is that at this point in the movie there simply isn't enough screen time left to deal with that kind of outcome in a halfway reasonable way; if Kirk rescues Nero, you now have to take the audience through some kind of resolution involving what is to be done with Nero and his crew, what happens to the ship, how will Nero answer for his crimes, how does Spock feel about having to rescue the man who murdered his mother, etc etc.

It's simply easier from a dramatic standpoint to avoid all that red tape and just kill him. Morally, it's not something the average person would question considering the kind of Mayhem Nero's been perpetrating on the universe since the moment he entered it. In short, capturing Nero means you still have to deal with him by the end of the movie (or in the next one, which would suck). Killing him gets him out of the picture, and we can all move on.

I don’t agree with that. Moral issues seemed to keep cropping up in TOS. It kind of went with the territory.
Of course it did; reality is that way too, you may have noticed. But TOS was fundamentally about a ship named Enterprise and three officers named Kirk Spock and McCoy; now matter how absurd those episodes became (seriously, TOS had some pretty cheesy premises even for the 1960s) it was always entertaining to watch to the solutions generated by Kirk, Spock and McCoy on their ship named Enterprise. The moment the story stops being about characters and starts being about situations, you run into trouble; the characters become interchangeable, and you stop caring about them.

Take "Mudd's Women" for an example. The moral lesson is so simplistic that Jim Kirk states it openly: "There's only one kind of woman. You either believe in yourself or you don't." The entire episode leading up to that moment is full of character moments, jokes, glances, seduction, arguments, passion, theatrics, villainy and wit, but in the end it's only Captain Kirk's unadulterated sneakiness that brings about that moral lesson.

As you say neither they or their solutions have to be explicit or rammed down our throats but that doesn’t lessen the potential drama.
True, but a writer is, at the end of the day, a storyteller, not a preacher. His job is to tell a good story, not to moralize his audience. So in Mudd's women we don't get an extra sermon about the evils of drug abuse or about how wrong it is for Harry Mudd to be trafficking women to alien worlds, or his extortion of the Enterprise to cover his own ends, or about how wrong it is to violate space traffic laws and put other people at risk. It's alot more efficient to simply throw Mudd in jail and be done with him. Same again for the salt vampire: if we had another two hours to kill we might enjoy a very entertaining debate about whether the creature was really malevolent or just hungry, whether it should be destroyed or punished or returned to its planet or whatever. But we don't have two hours, so set your phaser on kill and let's end this thing.

Accepted. But I’m suggesting it actually undermined Starfleets moral underpinnings and presented doing so as perfectly OK on more than one occasion (four at least).
I don't know that Starfleet has that much patience with genocidal maniacs. They were perfectly willing to eradicate the Borg, for example.

Yes, I saw that coming! ;) I guess I should have added "if it seriously compromises the brand."
"The brand" is an entertainment product, my friend. It doesn't "compromise" anything at all unless it flops at the box office. So Star Trek Insurrection may have be morally pleasing on a number of levels, but it doesn't help the brand much if the numbers flop.

Besides being an all around crappy movie.:vulcan:

Although I was seriously put off by the issue I mentioned I don't deny STXI has a lot of potential and although there are quite a few things that could be improved, none of the others are really deal breakers for me.

Has that not been the case for every Star Trek movie you have ever enjoyed? Even in TOS there were plenty of things they could have done better; that's precisely why we have TOS-R, and is also the reason why so many TOS episodes were later recycled in TNG episodes and/or movies (TMP is pretty much the cinematic version of "The Changeling.")
 
Are you saying that Kirk's offer was an empty gesture then? It would be in character for him though.

Maybe not. It's possible that some escape pods or shuttles could have been pulled free if they ejected quickly enough... the point to remember, though, is that Kirk's assistance would have been immediately followed by their being arrested and tried for war crimes (which Nero, I think, would have found only slightly more objectionable than being rescued by Kirk).

In the end, it's a finishing move. Your enemy lays dying at your feet, you offer him medical assistance, he says "Screw you, I'd rather die!" What is there left to do except pull out your phaser and put him out of his misery? Or are you gonna stand there and gloat over him and watch him die slowly?
 
There wasn't time to try and rescue the rest of the Narada's crew (assuming any were even still alive). They couldn't beam them away or send a shuttlecraft. Why should Kirk have risked his OWN crew to save Nero's?

I don't have a problem with what you say except:

1. Kirk offers assistance - why do so if there was no assistance he could give?

2. Based on the Enterprise's inability to pull away even at warp, it's clear that shuttles and weapons would not be able to break free but nobody said that transporters wouldn't work so we do not know that they could not have beamed away Narada's crew (my own view is that NOBODY should be beamed anywhere without a beacon i.e. communicators or belt monitors, but that involves dialling back transporter tech and there are no signs that they intend to do that).

3. Kirk found time to hang around to blow the ship to bits - that doesn't take longer than using the transporter. I'm not suggesting that Kirk should have succeeded in beaming anybody off - I'm suggesting that it was wrong for him not to try.

Are you saying that Kirk's offer was an empty gesture then? It would be in character for him though.

Maybe not. It's possible that some escape pods or shuttles could have been pulled free if they ejected quickly enough... the point to remember, though, is that Kirk's assistance would have been immediately followed by their being arrested and tried for war crimes (which Nero, I think, would have found only slightly more objectionable than being rescued by Kirk).

In the end, it's a finishing move. Your enemy lays dying at your feet, you offer him medical assistance, he says "Screw you, I'd rather die!" What is there left to do except pull out your phaser and put him out of his misery? Or are you gonna stand there and gloat over him and watch him die slowly?

And yet arresting Nero and his crew is what a Federation officer should do. This may come as a shock but 'putting someone out of his misery' would be murder in this day and age and I'm sure that it remains so in the 23rd century.

If you want to be pedantic, I suppose you should ask a medical officer to form a view as to whether his refusal of medical aid should be overruled so he can stand trial and see if he lives.
 
There wasn't time to try and rescue the rest of the Narada's crew (assuming any were even still alive). They couldn't beam them away or send a shuttlecraft. Why should Kirk have risked his OWN crew to save Nero's?

I don't have a problem with what you say except:

1. Kirk offers assistance - why do so if there was no assistance he could give?

2. Based on the Enterprise's inability to pull away even at warp, it's clear that shuttles and weapons would not be able to break free but nobody said that transporters wouldn't work so we do not know that they could not have beamed away Narada's crew (my own view is that NOBODY should be beamed anywhere without a beacon i.e. communicators or belt monitors, but that involves dialling back transporter tech and there are no signs that they intend to do that).

3. Kirk found time to hang around to blow the ship to bits - that doesn't take longer than using the transporter. I'm not suggesting that Kirk should have succeeded in beaming anybody off - I'm suggesting that it was wrong for him not to try.

Are you saying that Kirk's offer was an empty gesture then? It would be in character for him though.

Maybe not. It's possible that some escape pods or shuttles could have been pulled free if they ejected quickly enough... the point to remember, though, is that Kirk's assistance would have been immediately followed by their being arrested and tried for war crimes (which Nero, I think, would have found only slightly more objectionable than being rescued by Kirk).

In the end, it's a finishing move. Your enemy lays dying at your feet, you offer him medical assistance, he says "Screw you, I'd rather die!" What is there left to do except pull out your phaser and put him out of his misery? Or are you gonna stand there and gloat over him and watch him die slowly?

And yet arresting Nero and his crew is what a Federation officer should do. This may come as a shock but 'putting someone out of his misery' would be murder in this day and age and I'm sure that it remains so in the 23rd century.

If you want to be pedantic, I suppose you should ask a medical officer to form a view as to whether his refusal of medical aid should be overruled so he can stand trial and see if he lives.

Okay, if this Kirk is a murderer then so is the Kirk we've seen in TWOK.
 
And yet arresting Nero and his crew is what a Federation officer should do.

And often don't as we've seen in Trek's past.

Two (or ten) wrongs don't make a right!

My recollection is that they were preparing to board Reliant when they detected the build up the Genesis device. At that stage, they were on the clock (similar to NuTrek being caught in the event horizon). The sensible decision of NuKirk would have been to get the hell away from the event horizon first and then worry about Nero so that isn't a point in NuTrek's favour.

Further, a failure to try and arrest Khan due to an imminent explosion that could not be averted isn't the same as blowing up his helpless ship. Using the earlier example that would be accepting the dying man's refusal of medical treatment vs shooting him in the head. The former can be open to criticism in certain circumstances but it wouldn't be a crime.

I agree that it is arguable that Kirk could have tried to beam surviving crew off the Reliant before fleeing although TWoK Kirk does at least know that no 'innocent' people are on board from debriefing Chekov. If anything TWok is a pretty good example of how it should be done.
 
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Kirk found time to hang around to blow the ship to bits - that doesn't take longer than using the transporter. I'm not suggesting that Kirk should have succeeded in beaming anybody off - I'm suggesting that it was wrong for him not to try.

It seemed obvious that transporters wouldn't work. Otherwise, why didn't they just lock onto Captain Pike and beam him away, rather than go looking for him? The Narada was probably shielded against that very thing (separate from the ship's normal deflector shields).
 
Kirk found time to hang around to blow the ship to bits - that doesn't take longer than using the transporter. I'm not suggesting that Kirk should have succeeded in beaming anybody off - I'm suggesting that it was wrong for him not to try.

It seemed obvious that transporters wouldn't work. Otherwise, why didn't they just lock onto Captain Pike and beam him away, rather than go looking for him? The Narada was probably shielded against that very thing (separate from the ship's normal deflector shields).

LOL yeah, which is why Kirk and Spock could be beamed in, and then Kirk and Pike could be beamed back.


They didn't arrest Nero because they didn't have a brig.
 
Kirk found time to hang around to blow the ship to bits - that doesn't take longer than using the transporter. I'm not suggesting that Kirk should have succeeded in beaming anybody off - I'm suggesting that it was wrong for him not to try.

It seemed obvious that transporters wouldn't work. Otherwise, why didn't they just lock onto Captain Pike and beam him away, rather than go looking for him? The Narada was probably shielded against that very thing (separate from the ship's normal deflector shields).

Again, this is a problem with the lack of internal consistency in the movie. If the ship is shielded then they can't beam in either (since you have to scan to find a safe place to beam in i.e. one of those painfully thin walkways and not the 90% empty air surrounding them). If you can scan to beam in then you can scan to beam out. Plus later on, they ARE beamed out! Once again, it isn't a point in NuTrek's favour.

It may be that parts of the ship are shielded but that's significant enough to warrant a mention rather than just saying I'll beam you into this big open space where you are less likely to spotted. If they can scan the area for a safe place to beam, they can scan to confirm the presence of life forms too. :rolleyes:

As I said earlier, if they decide that you need a communicator to get beamed it makes things a lot less contradictory, avoids you coming up with excuses as to why people can't be beamed, and would have removed the stupidity of not being able to get a lock when someone is moving.
 
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