Captain Replacement.
- Thread starter Udat
- Start date
If Robert Beltran was happier during his tenure in the role of Chakotay on Star Trek Voyager, he might have done a better job. At times, I think he really shined. At other times, well, I found him a bit dry and stiff. I suspect that may be due in part to the writing/directing.
Anyway, of all of the choices listed, I couldn't think of anybody else but Chakotay to be the captain. Not only does it make logical sense rank wise, but Beltran would probably pull it off better than anybody else.
Anyway, of all of the choices listed, I couldn't think of anybody else but Chakotay to be the captain. Not only does it make logical sense rank wise, but Beltran would probably pull it off better than anybody else.
Tom got a field promotion in the pilot. He has pips. Is that fair? And he got a second field promotion in t... Any promotions Janeway ever handed out in the DQ were all field promotions including Tuvoks in season 2. But do you recall DS9: Valiant? Stupid little cadets were wandering around with field promotions and then Nog didn't have the balls to tell them that he was a REAL Ensign and they should all fall into line behind his command since they only had the ranks they said they had if he chose to abide by them with him being the highest ranking officer on board... Riker got a field promotion to Captain (I think?) in the best of both worlds which later an admiral ratified half way through the second episode.
In Equinox it was explained to Kim by his friend Tom that Max Burke was calling his exgirlfriend B'Elanna Torres: "bacon lettuce and Tomato" a sandwich, so Kim signed off out of that conversation by saying "Whatever you say Turkey Platter."
The commissions given to the Maquis crew were provisional (or "brevet") but Starfleet captains do have a great deal of leeway in determining such positions and promotions. Remember that Captain Picard made Wesley Crusher an acting ensign (which would have been a provisional position as well) and a few years later promoted him to full ensign. As far as the crew of Voyager would have been concerned, Chakotay was legally a Commander and thus entitled to all the privileges and responsibilities of his position, because their captain had given him that commission. I do wonder if Janeway could have simply "reactivated" his previous commission, rather than granting him a provisional one. In any event, Chakotay would've been the next in the line of command legally, even if it had not been ratified by Starfleet Command, due to the latitude that Starfleet captains are accorded. However, technically Chakotay would not have been able to take the rank of Captain, only the position of captain, without an officer of at least Rear Admiral rank to issue a field promotion, meaning he would still have remained ranked a provisional Commander. The only way around the legal rank of Commander for someone else to take command of Voyager that I can think of at this time would be if there had been another officer of Commander rank onboard Voyager with seniority over Chakotay. At that point, I don't know how the provisional, Janeway-issued rank would stand against a Starfleet-issued, non-provisional rank, but the hypothetical officer would likely have needed seniority to relieve Chakotay and take over (which might be difficult, if seniority in this case would have included Chakotay's prior Starfleet service, though I suspect it would not).
During Commander Riker's report to Admiral Hanson in the first act of BOBW Part 2, Hanson issued Riker's field promotion to the rank of Captain. Riker was not legally Captain (in rank, rather than position) until that field promotion was announced, though command had of course fallen to him once Picard had been abducted. It's just the difference of captain (position) vs Captain (rank).
The acting ensign rank Wesley had, had to be imaginary.
The Travellers coaxing aside, Wesley would have been a pet or a mascot as much as an acting Ensign.... Unless it got to a point were Picard felt that he deserved to be promoted to acting Lieutenant junior grade? I mean, three years as an Ensign is intolerable. Who could stand being an Ensign for three years with out hope of a promotion? That person would have to be superhumanly dull to cope with such hopelessness. (Kim and Wes are exactly the same age.)
Janeway could have reactivated Chakotay's "Official" rank (possibly?) depending on how defrocked he was as he joined the maquis that the Indian might have been court martialed in absentia, but here's the sticky wicket... If his REAL crew was not going to be getting Pips, then most assuredly as a symbol of respect to his people that he dragged into tthis clusterfuckup, Chuckles was damn sure going to be wearing a Provisional Rank Badge just the same as the rest of the Maquis to avoid alienation or any appearance of a lack of representation or abandonment.
It's this sort of pompous righteousness (in a good way, in a good way.) that would have had the lad not arrange for Janeway to court martial the lot of them in the DQ and then commute their sentences or work off their punishment, because THEY DID NOTHING WRONG. But by leaving this stink hanging in the air, half of the federation is going to be insisting that the last of the Maquis are thrown in jail as soon as possible once they re-enter federation territory, but then also righteously and pompously Chakotay might want a huge court martial in the AQ to PROVE that the Maquis were right and that the Federation was wrong. Hells If i were him, I'd insist on it.
"OH? A pardon? Go fuck yourself. I want my day in court. An apology and my home back."
The Travellers coaxing aside, Wesley would have been a pet or a mascot as much as an acting Ensign.... Unless it got to a point were Picard felt that he deserved to be promoted to acting Lieutenant junior grade? I mean, three years as an Ensign is intolerable. Who could stand being an Ensign for three years with out hope of a promotion? That person would have to be superhumanly dull to cope with such hopelessness. (Kim and Wes are exactly the same age.)
Janeway could have reactivated Chakotay's "Official" rank (possibly?) depending on how defrocked he was as he joined the maquis that the Indian might have been court martialed in absentia, but here's the sticky wicket... If his REAL crew was not going to be getting Pips, then most assuredly as a symbol of respect to his people that he dragged into tthis clusterfuckup, Chuckles was damn sure going to be wearing a Provisional Rank Badge just the same as the rest of the Maquis to avoid alienation or any appearance of a lack of representation or abandonment.
It's this sort of pompous righteousness (in a good way, in a good way.) that would have had the lad not arrange for Janeway to court martial the lot of them in the DQ and then commute their sentences or work off their punishment, because THEY DID NOTHING WRONG. But by leaving this stink hanging in the air, half of the federation is going to be insisting that the last of the Maquis are thrown in jail as soon as possible once they re-enter federation territory, but then also righteously and pompously Chakotay might want a huge court martial in the AQ to PROVE that the Maquis were right and that the Federation was wrong. Hells If i were him, I'd insist on it.
"OH? A pardon? Go fuck yourself. I want my day in court. An apology and my home back."
Why is three years as an ensign intolerable, particularly for someone who received a field promotion to acting ensign? Wesley was still a full officer prior to being admitted to the Academy! That's a pretty noteworthy accomplishment for a brand-new Cadet.
From 2364 (granted field commission as acting ensign in "Where No One Has Gone Before") to 2367 (promoted to full ensign in "Ménage à Troi"), Wesley's only Starfleet service was onboard the Enterprise. He was granted the original field commission because he was essentially undergoing "work-study" programs to prepare him for the Academy, and he was promoted to full ensign because Picard recognized that his duties and responsibilities had outstripped his provisional status. Wesley's situation certainly was not analogous to the Maquis situation, where Janeway was free to hand out provisional ranks as she saw fit. Wesley was intending to attend the Academy and rise through the ranks the normal, proper way. Based on his time onboard the Enterprise, I wouldn't be surprised if Wesley would have graduated from the Academy as a Lt JG (or not, considering the Nova Squadron incident) but he would have needed to graduate first to be able to hold that rank, as we've seen in the past that Academy graduates emerge with the rank of either ensign or Lt JG if their experiences between Academy years reflects experience appropriate to that rank.
Furthermore, Kim being the same age as Wesley really has no bearing on either of their situations. Wesley was made a full ensign prior to his entrance to the Academy due to his practical duties and responsibilities onboard the Enterprise; his hope for future promotion came through the Academy and a further career in Starfleet. Kim, on the other hand, graduated from the Academy with his rank, suggesting that Kim had no Starfleet experience prior to the Academy and that his record at the time of his graduation had not been notable enough to start as a Lt JG.
I pick on Kim.
That's my thing.
Wes did good Kirking it old style while Kim still had a paper route.
If i exaggerate a little to say that 3 years is intolerable for a kid with an honorary (to begin with) rank, then how is it going to feel for a grown (biologically barely) man to suffer SEVEN years as an Ensign?
The comment on their age being the same was to note how much more mature Wes was as a teenager than Kim was at 27, and because they are both reflections of the same culture brought up during the same years in accordance with the same social history and education, but by the time Kim was graduating from the academy claiming to be a young man ready to face the world with optimism and awe, Wes was apotheosizing.
That's my thing.
Wes did good Kirking it old style while Kim still had a paper route.
If i exaggerate a little to say that 3 years is intolerable for a kid with an honorary (to begin with) rank, then how is it going to feel for a grown (biologically barely) man to suffer SEVEN years as an Ensign?
The comment on their age being the same was to note how much more mature Wes was as a teenager than Kim was at 27, and because they are both reflections of the same culture brought up during the same years in accordance with the same social history and education, but by the time Kim was graduating from the academy claiming to be a young man ready to face the world with optimism and awe, Wes was apotheosizing.
Ah, now I follow what you meant. You're absolutely right, too. Like so many others, I find it perplexing that Kim never managed to get a promotion during 7 years of Voyager. I think you're also the first person I've ever seen to hold Wesley Crusher up as an example of maturity! Good on ya; I think he's sometimes unfairly maligned.
How do we explain season three's future's end when Kim was placed in charge before B'Elanna even though she seemed to be operating as his defacto XO for the most part of that story while he was in charge.
True if you are given command, you have it and it can't be taken away by any form of suress, only given, and command trumps rank... but they were in superhostile territory: The 20th Century! So shouldn't thye have looked for some one of a higher rank than kim or had more experience than Kim if not B'Elanna who was directly in charge of a third of the crew at any point in time because she was the chief engineer?
Was she overlooked because she was Maquis? Would any and all Maquis be overlooked?
Would Carey be given command before B'Elanna until she punched him in the nose insisting she would make a better Captain?
True if you are given command, you have it and it can't be taken away by any form of suress, only given, and command trumps rank... but they were in superhostile territory: The 20th Century! So shouldn't thye have looked for some one of a higher rank than kim or had more experience than Kim if not B'Elanna who was directly in charge of a third of the crew at any point in time because she was the chief engineer?
Was she overlooked because she was Maquis? Would any and all Maquis be overlooked?
Would Carey be given command before B'Elanna until she punched him in the nose insisting she would make a better Captain?
Not only that, but as competent a captain as Tuvok would no doubt make, the crew needed a warm and relatable leader to keep them acting at peak proficiency. I think Tuvok would voluntarily defer the captaincy to Chakotay for this same reason even if it did fall to him.
But given the choice between himself and Paris like in Resolutions, he'd bank on himself rather than the helmboy?
I'm wondering at what point would Seven step in insinuating that she is more qualified for the captaincy than the next person in the line of succession?
Because Seven stepping in would be no different than T'Pol stealing the First Officer Job off trip in Enterprise, it came down to a choice between conning the crew into believing that Borg rank is transferable rather than let some yokle like Kim or Dalby take the seat Kathryn kept warm and terrible for oh so many years.
Could Voyager get a Captain so unimpressive or bollocks that she would chose to leave?
I'm wondering at what point would Seven step in insinuating that she is more qualified for the captaincy than the next person in the line of succession?
Because Seven stepping in would be no different than T'Pol stealing the First Officer Job off trip in Enterprise, it came down to a choice between conning the crew into believing that Borg rank is transferable rather than let some yokle like Kim or Dalby take the seat Kathryn kept warm and terrible for oh so many years.
Could Voyager get a Captain so unimpressive or bollocks that she would chose to leave?
I love B'Elanna, but I doubt she'd want the captaincy any more than Tuvok, and certainly doesn't have his unflappable cool. For all his roguish history, I could actually see Paris maturing into a decent commander if saddled with all the attendant responsibility, but Chakotay and Tuvok at minimum would have to out of the picture for that to happen.
Unflappable cool is not criteria for being a Starfleet Captain.
What was the command structure on the Val Jean?
Who was the XO?
It seemed to be Tuvok?
Alyia appeared to be Chakotay's go-to guy, but that makes him Security officer or Chief Petty Officer. It was B'Elanna who had the tech background to master the world around her and understand the threats of fighting against power even if she was too emotionally unstable to deal with people at that time (Considering how quickly Klingons age, in the beginning, young Miss Torres could have been as short in the tooth as 8 or 9 during the events of Caretaker, yet appear to be an adult to human eyes.), B'Elanna still felt that she had position enough in the Maquis to argue with Chakotay about the use of the Dreadnuaght missile and then actually "survived"/retained a position (of authority even!) on Chakotay's staff after defying and castrating his authority there.
Someone higher up in the Maquis than Chakotay must have been mentoring B'Elanna. Protecting her. It's just a question of if she knew she was "made", that she was some Maquis general's henchwoman (spy?) or that an upperup just enjoyed the cut of her jib because they were coincidentally likeminded?
Maybe it was this schism or that she had to have been a plant fro one one of Chakotays political opponents in the Maquis is why he was grooming Tuvok into a command position so quickly after his introduction into the Maquis.
If things had gone wrong just a little, and Chakotay had been among the casualties of Caretaker reeling them into his far away homebase in the DQ... Tuvok would have been the Captain of the Val Jean.
The two crews, Starfleet and Maquis, their integration would never have occurred with any cohesion if it was revealed that the Maquis were being lead by a traitor if even just so briefly and further more it would have been in Janeways best interest to easily keep the Maquis under thumb if Tuvok would remain the Maquis Captain Chief Representative Negotiator of the criminal terrorist cell of dissidents and killers she was cuddling into her breasts, that if the Maquis thought he was their guy, representing their way of life, they could foolishly sleep easily unaware that the Vulcan was really a completely subordinate stooge to Kathryn Janeway and Starfleet who was selling them out.
Wow?
Where the fuck did that come from?"
What was the command structure on the Val Jean?
Who was the XO?
It seemed to be Tuvok?
Alyia appeared to be Chakotay's go-to guy, but that makes him Security officer or Chief Petty Officer. It was B'Elanna who had the tech background to master the world around her and understand the threats of fighting against power even if she was too emotionally unstable to deal with people at that time (Considering how quickly Klingons age, in the beginning, young Miss Torres could have been as short in the tooth as 8 or 9 during the events of Caretaker, yet appear to be an adult to human eyes.), B'Elanna still felt that she had position enough in the Maquis to argue with Chakotay about the use of the Dreadnuaght missile and then actually "survived"/retained a position (of authority even!) on Chakotay's staff after defying and castrating his authority there.
Someone higher up in the Maquis than Chakotay must have been mentoring B'Elanna. Protecting her. It's just a question of if she knew she was "made", that she was some Maquis general's henchwoman (spy?) or that an upperup just enjoyed the cut of her jib because they were coincidentally likeminded?
Maybe it was this schism or that she had to have been a plant fro one one of Chakotays political opponents in the Maquis is why he was grooming Tuvok into a command position so quickly after his introduction into the Maquis.
If things had gone wrong just a little, and Chakotay had been among the casualties of Caretaker reeling them into his far away homebase in the DQ... Tuvok would have been the Captain of the Val Jean.
The two crews, Starfleet and Maquis, their integration would never have occurred with any cohesion if it was revealed that the Maquis were being lead by a traitor if even just so briefly and further more it would have been in Janeways best interest to easily keep the Maquis under thumb if Tuvok would remain the Maquis Captain Chief Representative Negotiator of the criminal terrorist cell of dissidents and killers she was cuddling into her breasts, that if the Maquis thought he was their guy, representing their way of life, they could foolishly sleep easily unaware that the Vulcan was really a completely subordinate stooge to Kathryn Janeway and Starfleet who was selling them out.
Wow?
Where the fuck did that come from?"
I like the characters of both Tuvok and Chakotay, and I think either would have made good captains.
But I went with Chakotay. He had command experience (unlike Tuvok, AFAIK), and his was both in SF *and* in the Maquis. I see that as a double advantage: he was committed to SF principles, yet he was also quite capable of improvisation because of his Maquis experience, which would come in handy in the Delta Quadrant.
I also think that Chakotay would have been more respected for two reasons: one, he was one of the less treacherous and more principled Maquis with extensive SF experience, which would probably make him a more consensus and overall popular pick with a mixed SF/Maquis crew; two, as a human among a predominantly human-crewed ship, he'd have better rapport and charisma with most. Tuvok was really quite amicable and decent/tolerant towards humans/non-Vulcans (well, except for his good-natured ribbing of Neelix), but he'd come across (fairly or not) as distant and unapproachable. He'd make a great XO to balance the more emotional, intuitive-driven Chakotay.
I thought Chakotay acquitted himself well as Janeway's XO, supporter (most of the time — at least he didn't cross her in front of others and in fact demanded respect for her decisions. See "Night", eg), and in the occasional times he was acting captain did well.
I *don't* think Tom would've made a good XO or would've wanted the position. He wanted to pilot and have free time to tinker with his shuttles, cars, TVs, and holoprograms. Harry, IMO, would've made a better XO and would've liked it. Unlike Tom, he jumped at the chance to sit in "The Chair" and was an eager, by-the-book, loyal guy.
B'Elanna might have had the advantage of more experience and the ability to command more respect, but she needed to be chief engineer and was probably too volatile, which I'm sure she'd agree; I doubt she'd have accepted the XO position. If nothing else, she was too valuable as the chief engineer.
As for the Doctor...., he might have had all sorts of tactical programming as the ECH, but he'd probably have a hard time commanding respect from the crew. He also demonstrated pretty poor judgment at times, such as in "Renaissance Man": he nearly lost the warp core *and* Janeway (and himself and the Delta Flyer). *Neelix* might have made a better captain than he, given Neelix's experience, intuition, and charisma. Plus, the Doctor, for some reason, was quite susceptible to unwanted altering/abduction etc.
So I say Chakotay with Tuvok as XO.
But I went with Chakotay. He had command experience (unlike Tuvok, AFAIK), and his was both in SF *and* in the Maquis. I see that as a double advantage: he was committed to SF principles, yet he was also quite capable of improvisation because of his Maquis experience, which would come in handy in the Delta Quadrant.
I also think that Chakotay would have been more respected for two reasons: one, he was one of the less treacherous and more principled Maquis with extensive SF experience, which would probably make him a more consensus and overall popular pick with a mixed SF/Maquis crew; two, as a human among a predominantly human-crewed ship, he'd have better rapport and charisma with most. Tuvok was really quite amicable and decent/tolerant towards humans/non-Vulcans (well, except for his good-natured ribbing of Neelix), but he'd come across (fairly or not) as distant and unapproachable. He'd make a great XO to balance the more emotional, intuitive-driven Chakotay.
I thought Chakotay acquitted himself well as Janeway's XO, supporter (most of the time — at least he didn't cross her in front of others and in fact demanded respect for her decisions. See "Night", eg), and in the occasional times he was acting captain did well.
I *don't* think Tom would've made a good XO or would've wanted the position. He wanted to pilot and have free time to tinker with his shuttles, cars, TVs, and holoprograms. Harry, IMO, would've made a better XO and would've liked it. Unlike Tom, he jumped at the chance to sit in "The Chair" and was an eager, by-the-book, loyal guy.
B'Elanna might have had the advantage of more experience and the ability to command more respect, but she needed to be chief engineer and was probably too volatile, which I'm sure she'd agree; I doubt she'd have accepted the XO position. If nothing else, she was too valuable as the chief engineer.
As for the Doctor...., he might have had all sorts of tactical programming as the ECH, but he'd probably have a hard time commanding respect from the crew. He also demonstrated pretty poor judgment at times, such as in "Renaissance Man": he nearly lost the warp core *and* Janeway (and himself and the Delta Flyer). *Neelix* might have made a better captain than he, given Neelix's experience, intuition, and charisma. Plus, the Doctor, for some reason, was quite susceptible to unwanted altering/abduction etc.
So I say Chakotay with Tuvok as XO.
Chakotay has always been a leader, people follow him. remember, he used to lead the Mackee (sp?) right when the series started. Leader.
