Should the Federation have freed Bajor during the Border Wars?

[Gul Re'jal]

Exactly...it would be like going to war against the Nazis and then allowing them to have a treaty with them still in control of Poland. It would be like saying they were entitled to it.

However no one protested, when Nazi took over Czechoslovakia, Austria and part of France before WWII. Everything in the name of keeping peace. They were Germany's Bajors and the West didn't give a damn about those people there. They (Great Britain, France and... well... Mussolini's Italy) told Hitler he could keep all those countries during a meeting in Munich.

Analogically the Fed might have wanted peace with Cardassians at the cost of Bajorans.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

And I think it was absolutely pathetic the way Europe sat back and tolerated that...I think we are actually in complete agreement.

 

[indolover]

I also think it was a matter of the PD. Cardassians took Bajor, so it was their internal matter. I'm sure Bajorans weren't the first ones for Cardassians, and that Cardassians were not the only power with aggressive politic toward others. Klingons, Romulans - they probably had subjugated some worlds too. The Federation couldn't go from one system to another to liberate everyone.

In a war, in theory and in practice, all targets whether civilian or military of an enemy are subject to attack. Cardassia had annexed Bajor, and was exploiting and brutalising its people. So, as Bajor was then Cardassian territory, and the Federation was at war with Cardassia, liberating Bajor may have been feasible.

A comparison with the Klingons or Romulans makes little sense. The Federation couldn't use war as a pretext/justification for liberation. By the time of the Cardassian Wars, the Klingon/Federation Alliance had probably just been signed, or at the least the first Khitomer Accords of Kirk's time was still in effect. So in either way, they were allies, and hence not subject to Federation attack. And obviously the Neutral Zone/Algeron Treaty had the Romulans in check (as well as their own isolation).

Does anyone consider that it might be really, really difficult to take over a whole planet? I mean, conquering a country is hard enough, but a planet? Oh boy! Not something you do unless you really have to.

Anyway, it would be so out of character for the Federation and so un-Star Trekky that it really doesn't bear thinking about.

When there are billions of Bajorans who would lend a hand, that makes it easier, doesn't it? A Starfleet invasion force, plus billions of Bajorans, would greatly outnumber the resident Cardassian forces.

Besides, to conquer any interstellar power, there would have to be huge numbers of ground forces at a minimum. There would be no other way to conquer a power without controlling planets. The Federation wanted to, and frankly had to, conquer Cardassia Prime to end the Dominion War. The Dominion would have had to land huge ground forces to occupy Betazed. It must really be par of the course.

 

[Gul Re'jal]

When there are billions of Bajorans who would lend a hand, that makes it easier, doesn't it? A Starfleet invasion force, plus billions of Bajorans, would greatly outnumber the resident Cardassian forces.

I'm not so sure of that. Look at Kira and later The Circle. None of them wanted the Federation.
Bajorans could see "A Starfleet invasion force" as another power that wants to conquer them and they could fight against them as fiercely and against the Cardassians.

 

[EmperorTiberius]

SF probably wasn't powerful enough until late 60's, early 70's. We see that they are not thought highly off until the Dominion War. In the alternate universe, they are about to surrender to Klingons. Only once they started building Galaxy and Nebula class ships did the Federation out-gun the Cardassians, and even then, there were only 6 Galaxies and probably too few Nebulas and Ambassadors. Looking at the Dominion War, it seemed that other SF ships are on par with the Cardassian Galors. With that in mind, I don't think Federation would risk all-out war where they would sacrifice a large part of their fleet in order to free a world without strategic importance that's protected by a Starbase of unknown power and in such close proximity to Cardassia prime that the enemy would have extremely short supply lines and majority of their fleet at hand. SF would have to keep a large part of their fleet back protecting the core worlds from Romulans and Klingons, while hoping to continue exploration, supply, diplomatic, and scientific missions. They would also be expected to free all worlds in the Union. The disruption and bloodshed a war would cause was simply not worth it, especially with the risk that comes with weakening your fleet strength.

The Federation probably coudn't afford a big war and the impression that TNG gives off is that it was a stalemate.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I would say that, at the very least, the UFP should have engaged in a sort of "Reagan Doctrine" with Bajor, during the Wars.

That is...supply arms, provsions, and advisiors to the Bajoran Resistance. That sort of thing.

Who knows? They may have done exactly that.

 

[Rush Limborg]

I sincerely hope so.

But...I sincerely doubt it. Especially considering Kira's hostility towards all things Starfleet in "Emissary". If Starfleet had helped out the Resistance...you'd think she'd be a bit more...greatful.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ It is further possible that the Federation went 'undercover' and helped out the Bajorans without them even knowing (indeed, this is most likely, as it would also avoid the Cardassians finding out). If Kira didn't know about it, then she'd have no reason to change her attitude...

 

[DonIago]

I'll add fuel to the Prime Directive argument by noting that in the novels the recognized government of Bajor agrees to be annexed by Cardassia. While there's all kinds of behind-the-scenes issues, none of them are ultimately incriminating enough or widely-reported enough to make this, on the surface, look like anything other than the Bajorans asking for Cardassian assistance.

Now if the Circle had gotten its act together enough to make it unavoidably clear that the government's actions were being done without the peoples' consent (not a bad time for a civil war) then the Feds might have had more justification for getting involved.

Though, obviously, that could have taken hostilities with the Cardies to a level the Feds would have considered undesirable.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^ It is further possible that the Federation went 'undercover' and helped out the Bajorans without them even knowing (indeed, this is most likely, as it would also avoid the Cardassians finding out). If Kira didn't know about it, then she'd have no reason to change her attitude...

Hmm...I see your point.

Ah, well. Here's hoping.

I'll add fuel to the Prime Directive argument by noting that in the novels the recognized government of Bajor agrees to be annexed by Cardassia. While there's all kinds of behind-the-scenes issues, none of them are ultimately incriminating enough or widely-reported enough to make this, on the surface, look like anything other than the Bajorans asking for Cardassian assistance.

Now if the Circle had gotten its act together enough to make it unavoidably clear that the government's actions were being done without the peoples' consent (not a bad time for a civil war) then the Feds might have had more justification for getting involved.

Though, obviously, that could have taken hostilities with the Cardies to a level the Feds would have considered undesirable.

Well, had that happened...I wonder what the Circle's attitude towards the Federation would have been in DS9 then....

 

[Admiral Shran]

Even though it was a relatively peaceful time (no Romulans, no Klingon threat, no Borg, no Dominion - but they did still fight wars with the Cardassians and the Tzenkethi), the Prime Directive would probably have prevented the liberation of Bajor.

That would be a truly draconian - and unjustified - application of the prime directive:

The bajorans were an interstellar species, so relations with them were permitted as per the prime directive;
The bajorans (whatever passed for a bajoran government) asked - or would have asked - help from the federation.

Not liberationg Bajor because it's 'an internal' cardassian matter is akin to recognising that Cardassia's conquest and occupation of Bajor is legitimate:
That the cardassians had the right to conquer Bajor and have the right to keep it occupied by violence - which contradicts basic federation values such as liberty.

Except that's exactly what the Federation did.

In Ensign Ro, when we're first introduced to the Bajorans, Picard flat out says that the UFP didn't intervene because Bajor was Cardassian terrority....

Keeve Falor: You were innocent bystanders for decades as the Cardassians took our homes. As they violated and tortured our people in the most hideous ways imaginable. As we were forced to flee.
Picard: We were saddened by those events, but they occured within the borders of the Cardassian Empire.
Keeve Falor: And the Federation is pledged not to interfere with the internal affairs of others. How convenient that must be for you. To turn a deaf ear to those who suffer behind a line on a map.

So, in other words, the Federation did nothing to assist Bajor because the Prime Directive didn't allow them to.

Once the Bajorans were free from Cardassian authority, however, the UFP was willing to work with them.

Sounds like a recognition that Cardassia's conquest and occupation of Bajor was legitimate to me.

 

[ProtoAvatar]

Sounds like a recognition that Cardassia's conquest and occupation of Bajor was legitimate to me.

It sounds like politically unsound and morally reprobable appeasement - much like Europe's appeasement/acceptance of nazi Germany's initial conquests.

The federation's appeasement politics towards the cardassians continued - and were equally unsound - culminating in the creation of the DMZ and giving planets inhabited by federation citizens to the cardassians.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I've noticed the Federation doesn't wage war like other cultures; they appear to release enemy territory after a war (or at least it has been speculated), don't believe in orbital bombardments, and send out 'peace feelers' even in the midst of a war.

So it wouldn't surprise me that they didn't even try to liberate Bajor, due to the Directive.


On the other hand, being peaceful and negotiating has saved the Federation a lot of trouble, and made it prosperous.

The Cardassians, Klingons and Romulans didn't, and it cost them a lot things, the Cardassians, just about everything.

It almost cost the Dominion just about everything.

Perhaps the reason why some people may be creeped out by the Prime Directive is the 'do nothing, while innocent weaker cultures is overcome by the evil sronger culture' concept.

But then, when the Federation faced a similar situation, they gave Sisko their blessing to trick the Romulans into the war! lol

 

[Gul Re'jal]

But then, when the Federation faced a similar situation, they gave Sisko their blessing to trick the Romulans into the war! lol

Eh? I don't think anyone knew about it, except for Sisko and Garak. And Sisko's "Federation conscience" was eating his alive after that.

 

[SoM]

The Bajorans got a lot of weapons from Hagath and "others like him", per DS9: "Business as Usual".

But then, when the Federation faced a similar situation, they gave Sisko their blessing to trick the Romulans into the war! lol

Eh? I don't think anyone knew about it, except for Sisko and Garak. And Sisko's "Federation conscience" was eating his alive after that.

While blowing up the ship was Garak's own... initiative..., Sisko explicitly says he got permission to make/use the fake and everything required to do so (inc. handing over the biomimetic gel).

 

[Nightdiamond]

Before that, the Federation were losing the war, and wanted the Romulans to join the war on their side.

The Romulans so far wouldn't, so Sisko with their blessing decided to trick them into it..

Is that seen as being inconsistent with for example not interfering in other culture's conflicts, even when one side is innocent and even asking for help?

That was some serious duplicity there...

 

[Anwar]

There's a difference between two sides being at open war when one asks for Federation help, and when there are no "two sides" and it's the subjects of one Empire fighting against the Empire that encompasses them. Then it is internal since it's the going ons of said greater Empire. The Bajoran government formally recognized the annexation of Bajor when it happened so the Bajorans were the subjects of Cardassia.

If the Feds did intervene it would be double-standard for not doing anything about the Romulans and Klingons, make them out to be hypocrites, and make the Klingons/Romulans nervous/hostile/MORE hostile towards them for doing so.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I think that the Cardassians annexed Bajor prior to the Border Wars and that the Federation rose a big stink about it--to which, the Cardassians told the Federation to "mind your effing business" as it transpired within what was now Cardassian territory. Respecting the sovereingty of another nation is a double-edged sword, IMO, and is one of the drawbacks of the Federation's ideals at times...

The Federation is under NO obligation whatsoever to recognise Bajor as being legitimate cardassian territory just because the cardassians said "mind your effing business".

But that's what basically happened. Bajor was already within Cardassian territory at the time it was occupied, so the Federation had to mind its effing business or declare war on the entire Cardassian Union in order to invade their territory and liberate a world they annexed. The annexation of worlds is probably a common practice within the Klingon and Romulan Empires too.

There's a difference between two sides being at open war when one asks for Federation help, and when there are no "two sides" and it's the subjects of one Empire fighting against the Empire that encompasses them. Then it is internal since it's the going ons of said greater Empire. The Bajoran government formally recognized the annexation of Bajor when it happened so the Bajorans were the subjects of Cardassia.

If the Feds did intervene it would be double-standard for not doing anything about the Romulans and Klingons, make them out to be hypocrites, and make the Klingons/Romulans nervous/hostile/MORE hostile towards them for doing so.

This.

 

[DevilEyes]

I also think it was a matter of the PD. Cardassians took Bajor, so it was their internal matter. I'm sure Bajorans weren't the first ones for Cardassians, and that Cardassians were not the only power with aggressive politic toward others. Klingons, Romulans - they probably had subjugated some worlds too. The Federation couldn't go from one system to another to liberate everyone.

In a war, in theory and in practice, all targets whether civilian or military of an enemy are subject to attack. Cardassia had annexed Bajor, and was exploiting and brutalising its people. So, as Bajor was then Cardassian territory, and the Federation was at war with Cardassia, liberating Bajor may have been feasible.

A comparison with the Klingons or Romulans makes little sense. The Federation couldn't use war as a pretext/justification for liberation. By the time of the Cardassian Wars, the Klingon/Federation Alliance had probably just been signed, or at the least the first Khitomer Accords of Kirk's time was still in effect. So in either way, they were allies, and hence not subject to Federation attack. And obviously the Neutral Zone/Algeron Treaty had the Romulans in check (as well as their own isolation).

Does anyone consider that it might be really, really difficult to take over a whole planet? I mean, conquering a country is hard enough, but a planet? Oh boy! Not something you do unless you really have to.

Anyway, it would be so out of character for the Federation and so un-Star Trekky that it really doesn't bear thinking about.

When there are billions of Bajorans who would lend a hand, that makes it easier, doesn't it? A Starfleet invasion force, plus billions of Bajorans, would greatly outnumber the resident Cardassian forces.

It would be very naive to expect that billions of Bajorans would just rise up and help Starfleet fight the Cardassians. Even expecting millions would be really pushing it. Or that most of them would even have a clue how. I can't think of an example in real life history when the absolute majority of population rose up to fight anyone. Bajoran Resistance could do it - if indeed they were all willing to trust the Starfleet, which is a big "IF" - and they could probably recruit some more people if they had more weapons and the help of a powerful army - but that's about it.

It's not like the Resistance ever had success because of their overwhelming numbers. There is no doubt that they were inferior in terms of numbers, logistics and technology to the occupying Cardassian army, and they could never have opted for an all-out war. They were using terrorist/guerilla tactics because they offer the opportunity to strike at a much stronger opponent that you'd otherwise have no chance against. If it had ever been possible to organize the majority of Bajoran population into an army, Cardassians would have been easily defeated years before, Feds or no Feds. But that's not even remotely realistic.

When there are billions of Bajorans who would lend a hand, that makes it easier, doesn't it? A Starfleet invasion force, plus billions of Bajorans, would greatly outnumber the resident Cardassian forces.

I'm not so sure of that. Look at Kira and later The Circle. None of them wanted the Federation.
Bajorans could see "A Starfleet invasion force" as another power that wants to conquer them and they could fight against them as fiercely and against the Cardassians.

That, too.

 

[Admiral Shran]

The Bajoran government formally recognized the annexation of Bajor when it happened so the Bajorans were the subjects of Cardassia.

I believe that info. comes from the non-canon novels (especially the Star Trek: Terok Nor trilogy), so please correct me if I'm wrong here since I haven't read those novels. But didn't the Cardassians set up a puppet Bajoran government who then rubber-stamped anything the Union wanted in order to give any action the aura of legitimacy? That's certainly what the series itself implies, if not directly states in the episode The Collaborator.

That's somewhat similar to what happened in World War II with Vichy France. That government, while not directly created by the Germans, was little more than a Nazi puppet state. But since they were the "recognized" government of France at the time and approved of the Nazi occupation of northern France, does that mean the occupation was justified?

If the Feds did intervene it would be double-standard for not doing anything about the Romulans and Klingons, make them out to be hypocrites, and make the Klingons/Romulans nervous/hostile/MORE hostile towards them for doing so.

If the UFP decided not to help Bajor for fear of provoking the Romulans, or even their new Klingon allies, I can understand that. Those are actual geo-political issues that would need to be dealt with and taken into consideration. If, however, it was nothing more than a dogmatic adherence to the principles of the Prime Directive (which I think the episode Ensign Ro directly states), I think that's a unsupportable position on the part of the Federation.