%18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing facts
- Thread starter LitmusDragon
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Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Wow, that statement is so.......let's just say that you're not helping your own argument.
Wow, that statement is so.......let's just say that you're not helping your own argument.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Unless his argument is "I don't know what I'm talking about," in which case his point is being made exceptionally well.
Unless his argument is "I don't know what I'm talking about," in which case his point is being made exceptionally well.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Since you stated it like that, then he is helping his argument quite well.
Since you stated it like that, then he is helping his argument quite well.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Yeah, I noticed that. Now consider Bin Laden's statement. It makes it clear that intrusion on places a people considers sacred builds intense resentment, leading directly to violence, in his case the slaughter of 3000 American civilians. So now the Muslims want to build an Islamic center next to a place where 3000 Americans were killed by Islamic extremists, a place we consider sacred, and the only conclusion to draw is that it is an act of provocation aimed at inciting us to extreme violence. It's almost guaranteed that some angry New Yorker will react violently, an action that will be cited in some future Al-Qaeda press release after they blow up a bunch more Western shoppers.
Nope. The preservation of liberty and peace already places restrictions on free speech, both in federal and state law. A person can physically beat you to a pulp and walk away without facing any charges, even in San Francisco, if you ran your mouth over the line and pissed them off. In fact, you can face charges for inciting the violent confrontation.
Yeah, I noticed that. Now consider Bin Laden's statement. It makes it clear that intrusion on places a people considers sacred builds intense resentment, leading directly to violence, in his case the slaughter of 3000 American civilians. So now the Muslims want to build an Islamic center next to a place where 3000 Americans were killed by Islamic extremists, a place we consider sacred, and the only conclusion to draw is that it is an act of provocation aimed at inciting us to extreme violence. It's almost guaranteed that some angry New Yorker will react violently, an action that will be cited in some future Al-Qaeda press release after they blow up a bunch more Western shoppers.
Nope. The preservation of liberty and peace already places restrictions on free speech, both in federal and state law. A person can physically beat you to a pulp and walk away without facing any charges, even in San Francisco, if you ran your mouth over the line and pissed them off. In fact, you can face charges for inciting the violent confrontation.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
I think that is what worrys me the most about that list, say what you will about Glen Beck, but to the best of my knowledge he has never said that the sun revolves around the Earth.America the Ignorant (Linky)
Among the other ignorant things Americans believe as highlighted in the linked article ...
%21 believe there are real sorcerors, conjurers, and warlocks out there
%20 believe that the sun revolves around the Earth
More than 1/3rd can't identify which continent the Amazon river is located on
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
This attempts to equate the U.S. government installing military bases in Sauda Arabia to wage war against an Islamic nation with the private ownership and building of an Islamic Community center.
Those are not at all the same thing. You are comparing the actions of individuals with the actions of governments. The community center is not a provocative act unless you make the logical leap to equate Islam with terror. That's the only way this act can be provocative.
If you ran your mouth over the line and pissed them off----it depends on what you are talking about.
If you are saying "I'm going to kill you and your family" ---that is not protected speech.
as opposed to "Your mother is a whore"--which is protected.
Law makes distinctions between certain types of speech, fighting words & incitements to violence are not protected forms of speech. Those ARE restrictions on freedoms. Yet, those are freedoms which we give up to live in a civilized society.
When you begin to restrict religious & political speech then you face a dangerous precedent.
This attempts to equate the U.S. government installing military bases in Sauda Arabia to wage war against an Islamic nation with the private ownership and building of an Islamic Community center.
Those are not at all the same thing. You are comparing the actions of individuals with the actions of governments. The community center is not a provocative act unless you make the logical leap to equate Islam with terror. That's the only way this act can be provocative.
If you ran your mouth over the line and pissed them off----it depends on what you are talking about.
If you are saying "I'm going to kill you and your family" ---that is not protected speech.
as opposed to "Your mother is a whore"--which is protected.
Law makes distinctions between certain types of speech, fighting words & incitements to violence are not protected forms of speech. Those ARE restrictions on freedoms. Yet, those are freedoms which we give up to live in a civilized society.
When you begin to restrict religious & political speech then you face a dangerous precedent.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Well, the imam building the mosque (Imam Rauf) has defended Al Qaeda's violence, claims Bin Laden works for the CIA, supports Hamas, a terrorist organization, and says that Muslim terrorism won't stop until we change.
On tolerance, he said this after Muslims burned down a bunch of Catholic churches for using the word "Allah" to refer to God:
So he can build a victory mosque that mocks the 9/11 victims, but Christians aren't allowed to use the word "Allah" because Muslims do get pissed off and attack Christians over it.
So how's that freedom of speech working out? Now we're not allowed to use the Arabic word for God, or they'll burn our churches.
Well, the imam building the mosque (Imam Rauf) has defended Al Qaeda's violence, claims Bin Laden works for the CIA, supports Hamas, a terrorist organization, and says that Muslim terrorism won't stop until we change.
On tolerance, he said this after Muslims burned down a bunch of Catholic churches for using the word "Allah" to refer to God:
So he can build a victory mosque that mocks the 9/11 victims, but Christians aren't allowed to use the word "Allah" because Muslims do get pissed off and attack Christians over it.
So how's that freedom of speech working out? Now we're not allowed to use the Arabic word for God, or they'll burn our churches.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Guess some just don't get it...
Guess some just don't get it...
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
If you're aiming this at Locutus, BA, its null and void. Here's T'Bonz most recent guideline on politics in Misc, and what the mods look for. This thread has been largely civil so there's no point in stirring the pot. We have a handle on it
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
So Christianity is as many religions as there are denominations but Islam is monolithic?
So Christianity is as many religions as there are denominations but Islam is monolithic?
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaxECcTjCuw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaxECcTjCuw
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Indeed, just not the person you think. Oh well, what would I know; moderating this forum and all? Wait a minute, what's that in the post directly below the one you just quoted?
Indeed, just not the person you think. Oh well, what would I know; moderating this forum and all? Wait a minute, what's that in the post directly below the one you just quoted?
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
To a large extent, yes. Islam has Sunni (about 87% of Muslims) and Shia (about 12% of Muslims). Some are sufi who could be either Sunni or Shia. There are a few other very very minor sects but their numbers are insignificant.
Christianity was probably born more fragmented than Islam has ever been, but a rough parallel might be the period when Europeans would be either Catholic or Orthodox (Western Church vs. Eastern Church).
To a large extent, yes. Islam has Sunni (about 87% of Muslims) and Shia (about 12% of Muslims). Some are sufi who could be either Sunni or Shia. There are a few other very very minor sects but their numbers are insignificant.
Christianity was probably born more fragmented than Islam has ever been, but a rough parallel might be the period when Europeans would be either Catholic or Orthodox (Western Church vs. Eastern Church).
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
I see what you did there.
there's no point in stirring the pot. We have a handle on it
I see what you did there.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Christianity has Catholic (about 60% of Christians) and Protestant (about 40% of Christians). There are some sub divisions and other minor sects but they're insignificant really outside academia.
Stating the complex as simplistically as you can doesn't mean the complexity goes away, you simply choose not to discuss it. Both of those large groups of Muslims contain many sub divisions and just like Protestants are not monolithic in belief or practice. The differences probably seem insignificant to an outsider; but can many atheists truly explain the differences between many Christian denominations? And if they lived outside a primarily Christian nation, would they even acknowledge the distinction?
Christianity has Catholic (about 60% of Christians) and Protestant (about 40% of Christians). There are some sub divisions and other minor sects but they're insignificant really outside academia.
Stating the complex as simplistically as you can doesn't mean the complexity goes away, you simply choose not to discuss it. Both of those large groups of Muslims contain many sub divisions and just like Protestants are not monolithic in belief or practice. The differences probably seem insignificant to an outsider; but can many atheists truly explain the differences between many Christian denominations? And if they lived outside a primarily Christian nation, would they even acknowledge the distinction?
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
For blame on that, look no further than the cowardly republicans who are afraid of having those prisoners on US soil. The same chickens afraid of giving them trials.
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Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
The question becomes is this discussion about the world or how Americans see their President. America where Catholics are only about 25% and those pesky Protestants, Latter Day Saints and various Restorationist make up a greater and more active population. Then again in Islam the Nation of Islam and the Five Percenters will skew their numbers.
The question becomes is this discussion about the world or how Americans see their President. America where Catholics are only about 25% and those pesky Protestants, Latter Day Saints and various Restorationist make up a greater and more active population. Then again in Islam the Nation of Islam and the Five Percenters will skew their numbers.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Since the people building the community center are not the people who attacked us on 9-11 nor do they support those attackers or approve of the attacks it is absurd to consider this as any kind of provocation.
Re: %18 of Americans think Obama is a Muslim, and other disturbing fac
Not hardly. You forgot Eastern Orthodox (the second largest group of Christians), other Orthorodx (including Ethiopian and Coptic Orthodox), Anglican, Assyrian, Anabaptist, and Protestant (in a hundred flavors), then on to the esoteric groups like the 7th Day Adventists, Church of Christ, and finally, Mormons.
Um. No. Shia's, for example, have only three sects
They are insignificant, even to members. Almost all Shia's are Twelvers, a term describing the exact lineage of the first twelve imams (an inherited position). Of the two other branches of Shia Islam, the Zaidi (who are only in Yemen) don't agree about the fifth of the twelve imams because he didn't stage a revolution, whereas the Ismaili Shia believe that the imam following the sixth should've actually be the elder brother of the seventh imam. This is arcane trivia on the level of debating whether Pope Hyginus should really be listed between Pope Telesphorus and Pope Pius I, and whether we should pretend to forget about Pope Boniface II.
Islam doesn't have the vast number of fundamental theological and structural differences that Christianiaty does because the Koran is much more direct and to the point about what to believe and why. The Bible isn't laid out like a catechism, and much of what Christians believe isn't even in the Bible or is in it only in the vaguest terms, such as the concept that Christ died for our sins.
Despite how often you hear that phrase as the central Christian message today, it took about 1,200 years for a Christian to finally say it. For the thousand years prior to that Christians thought Christ's sacrifice was actually a clever ruse to trick Satan into accepting the soul of someone who couldn't really die, thus causing Satan to forfeit the right to all of humanity, a right he'd had because Adam and Eve's fall had sold humans into Satan's service as subjects. We don't even bother discussing fundamental shifts like this today, which in magnitude would be like a sect of Islam claiming that Muhammed was actually a Mossad agent pretending to be a camel trader and a prophet so he could bust a ring of diamond smugglers.
Not hardly. You forgot Eastern Orthodox (the second largest group of Christians), other Orthorodx (including Ethiopian and Coptic Orthodox), Anglican, Assyrian, Anabaptist, and Protestant (in a hundred flavors), then on to the esoteric groups like the 7th Day Adventists, Church of Christ, and finally, Mormons.
Um. No. Shia's, for example, have only three sects
They are insignificant, even to members. Almost all Shia's are Twelvers, a term describing the exact lineage of the first twelve imams (an inherited position). Of the two other branches of Shia Islam, the Zaidi (who are only in Yemen) don't agree about the fifth of the twelve imams because he didn't stage a revolution, whereas the Ismaili Shia believe that the imam following the sixth should've actually be the elder brother of the seventh imam. This is arcane trivia on the level of debating whether Pope Hyginus should really be listed between Pope Telesphorus and Pope Pius I, and whether we should pretend to forget about Pope Boniface II.
Islam doesn't have the vast number of fundamental theological and structural differences that Christianiaty does because the Koran is much more direct and to the point about what to believe and why. The Bible isn't laid out like a catechism, and much of what Christians believe isn't even in the Bible or is in it only in the vaguest terms, such as the concept that Christ died for our sins.
Despite how often you hear that phrase as the central Christian message today, it took about 1,200 years for a Christian to finally say it. For the thousand years prior to that Christians thought Christ's sacrifice was actually a clever ruse to trick Satan into accepting the soul of someone who couldn't really die, thus causing Satan to forfeit the right to all of humanity, a right he'd had because Adam and Eve's fall had sold humans into Satan's service as subjects. We don't even bother discussing fundamental shifts like this today, which in magnitude would be like a sect of Islam claiming that Muhammed was actually a Mossad agent pretending to be a camel trader and a prophet so he could bust a ring of diamond smugglers.
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