The problem with Voyager wasn't the characters but the premise

[Guy Gardener]

Watch Muse again if you haven't seen it in some time. It's all about what you're saying here.

Of course I was sure that the writer (Joe Menoski) was back handing the decline of the franchise, but then it's more probable that he was just slinging shit at every other TV show being made at the time.

 

[Destructor]

Watch Muse again if you haven't seen it in some time. It's all about what you're saying here.

Excellent observation, Guy. 'Muse' is one of my favourite Voyager eps, in part because it came at a time when I had all but lost faith in the show and it was one dreary exercise after another, then this episode came, almost like an apologia for the show. I see it as very similar to (the film) 'Unforgiven' in this respect- it doesn't just contrast with what came before, it enhances them by showing us what was wrong with them.

I have great affection for Voyager even as I see how flawed it was, and I think Muse is about the closest expression of that duality that the show ever captured.

 

[JanewayRulz!]

God I love "The Muse".

TORRES: They (The BORG) even have a queen.
KELIS: That sounds terrifying. Captain Janeway hasn't been able to destroy them?
TORRES: She is a Starfleet officer, trained to avoid violence whenever possible. She would make peace with the Borg if she could!
KELIS: This is what I need! An enemy, someone to stand in the way of Voyager finding B'Elanna Torres. Captain Janeway, driven by vengeance, must seek out the Queen of the Borg. The audience thinks she plans to destroy them all, but.
TORRES: Go on.
KELIS: The Sudden Reversal! Captain Janeway, holding her spear at the queen's throat, throws her weapon aside and she argues passionately to put an end to their conflict in words no one will fail to understand.
TORRES: Including your patron? That's much better than all that kissing.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Making peace, and Seven really also being the Queen.

That would have made a superior final episode by a factor of at least 17.

Oh, and DeLanney sisters.

I really needed more of those two.

 

[Cepstrum]

^^^^

Goodness. I hadn't thought of "Muse" as self-parody.

But now that you mention it and as I think about it, I can't help "chuckling"!

Yes, Guy *great* observation.




But I, too, Destructor, have great affection for all things VOY. In fact, that's a *great* word to describe my feelings towards VOY vis-á-vis the two other TNG-era shows (both of which I like as well, though for different reasons. And "affection" is not the word I'd use to describe my liking of TNG and DS9. More like "engaging/entertaining/thoughtful" for the former and... the same for the latter, though I'd add "dramatic" and "thrilling".)

 

[Guy Gardener]

I'm also pretty sure that the writer had forgotten/had no idea that Tom and B'Elanna were dating (I know I hadn't been reminded in some years) when he made the DeLanney/Paris/DeLanney sandwhich on stage.

 

[Cepstrum]

Well, didn't VOY go through a bunch of writers, kind of like TNG (and unlike DS9)?

I could try looking it up, but I wonder if the story was by a veteran VOY (or even Trek) writer. I also wonder the same about the person who wrote the teleplay. Maybe he/she was a veteran but just scripted the pitched story as-is, essentially. It was my understanding that the story writers/pitchers just gave a general idea or concept (or high concept) and it was the responsibility of the teleplay person who really defined the actual finished product.

Unlike in movies where it seems the directors are the ones who put their "stamp" on the show and the screenplay guys' roles are relatively minor (ie, compared to TV).

 

[AMQ]

I didn't have problem with Voyager. It had the great idea, returning home etc. I watched it long time ago so I don't remember all the details, but I know I loved episodes with Borg, it was so great, all that action, and rush... I liked 7of 9, couldn't really get the Nelix/Kes ?
I liked Janeway, but I remember that I was so distracted by that bun she wore at the few first seasons I liked her debates with Chakotay, and Tuvok, and Q was hillarious, when I remember that son of his, Janeway was his godmather or something... and Paris/B'Elanna I loved their relationship... and Doctor. Oh, now I wanna watch it

 

[Anwar]

Well, didn't VOY go through a bunch of writers, kind of like TNG (and unlike DS9)?

The problem with UPN's constant interference when it came to writers was the high turnover rate: First it was Piller and Taylor on charge, and their inability to compromise over how the show would be done caused the early schizophrenia. Then Piller was fired and Taylor took over for S3, then she was fired and replaced by Braga in S4-S5. Then by S6 he and Berman were ordered to go off and plan Enterprise and replaced by Ken Biller who admitted he didn't really care about the show or have any idea what to do in the end, leading to "Endgame".

For TNG Piller was the Script Editor for S3-S7, and in DS9 he was in charge for S1-S2. After that Ira Behr and Ron Moore took over for the rest of the series.

Now, if Braga and Piller had been in charge all throughout VOY it would've worked out better.

 

[Cepstrum]

Well, didn't VOY go through a bunch of writers, kind of like TNG (and unlike DS9)?

The problem with UPN's constant interference when it came to writers was the high turnover rate: First it was Piller and Taylor on charge, and their inability to compromise over how the show would be done caused the early schizophrenia. Then Piller was fired and Taylor took over for S3, then she was fired and replaced by Braga in S4-S5. Then by S6 he and Berman were ordered to go off and plan Enterprise and replaced by Ken Biller who admitted he didn't really care about the show or have any idea what to do in the end, leading to "Endgame".

For TNG Piller was the Script Editor for S3-S7, and in DS9 he was in charge for S1-S2. After that Ira Behr and Ron Moore took over for the rest of the series.

Now, if Braga and Piller had been in charge all throughout VOY it would've worked out better.

Thanks for all that clarifying info, Anwar.

All I knew was that Taylor left the show. I didn't know it went through four sets of different producers!

Piller/Taylor --> Taylor --> Braga --> Biller.

Whew.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I mentioned earlier that the episode was written by Joe Menoski that if you look him up you'll see that he contributed to the best episodes of TNG and Voyager. He is exceptional or the lad was just lucky to have collaborated in the best think tanks since these things seen to be written in teams and then rewritten by the producers.

Voyager was still accepting Spec scripts from the public for most of it's run. People just mailed Scripts to "star trek" and prayed some one read and liked their ideas. I spent hours one day a decade ago figuring out that Voyager has just over 70 credited scriptwriters (Berman (or another producer when Berman is busy) gets a listing almost always because he buys these scripts and checks the spelling.) for just 172 episodes, and less stories if you count the several two parters that should be called one lengthy episode who some times had entirely different writers trying lock mega blocks together with legos.

 

[Cepstrum]

I mentioned earlier that the episode was written by Joe Menoski that if you look him up you'll see that he contributed to the best episodes of TNG and Voyager. He is exceptional or the lad was just lucky to have collaborated in the best think tanks since these things seen to be written in teams and then rewritten by the producers.

Voyager was still accepting Spec scripts from the public for most of it's run. People just mailed Scripts to "star trek" and prayed some one read and liked their ideas. I spent hours one day a decade ago figuring out that Voyager has just over 70 credited scriptwriters (Berman (or another producer when Berman is busy) gets a listing almost always because he buys these scripts and checks the spelling.) for just 172 episodes, and less stories if you count the several two parters that should be called one lengthy episode who some times had entirely different writers trying lock mega blocks together with legos.

70 scriptwriters?!

My goodness again. No wonder it had such a wide variety of shows!

That's almost completely opposite from DS9, especially in its later seasons. I recently read through the Ron Moore chat transcripts, and IIRC, they stopped accepting spec scripts around mid-way and forwarded them *all* to VOY, hehe.

I don't have the stats off-hand, but I thought DS9, as it progressed, had a rather small writing staff that rotated, with each party writing several shows per season. And that regular staff writing meetings occured, with all writers reviewing and providing input on the others' scripts.

I suppose having so many writers isn't necessarily a bad thing for VOY. It was almost purely episodic, and perhaps it benefited from the greater diversity in stories. That obviously wouldn't have worked with DS9's lengthy (six and ten episodes, for example) arcs and grand, overarching direction it eventually developed.