The problem with Voyager wasn't the characters but the premise

[Cepstrum]

Yes, VOY had flaws in execution and premise. There was plenty of blame to go around between UPN execs and the writers.

But I still loved it. I loved the characters, loved how it was different from TNG and DS9 (which I also like very much).

And yes, the Maquis were probably a poor choice. It made sense that they chose to have human "villians", because of the expense and annoyance of dressing so many crew as aliens every week. But at that point, when Voyager launched, the Maquis didn't harbor much hatred for Starfleet; I think that only came after the Sisko/Eddington showdown. There was little motivation for the Maquis -- many of whom were former Starfleet officers, evidently -- to *create* conflict when their fellow Starfleet crew are the only reliably friendly (and UFP citizens) people around.

I admit many episodes were silly, the episodic formula of having a pristine ship with almost always unlimited fuel and energy every week was probably *very* hard for DS9 fans to follow. It helped that I first watched VOY, then DS9, then TNG. I don't know if I'd appreciate VOY if I had been "spoiled" by DS9's amazing drama and realism.

But VOY was kind of a "feel-good" show. It was pretty light-hearted/comical (eg, "Virtuoso"), which set it apart from the other Treks series.


I have almost no idea what Farscape or nuBSG are about, but I'm glad they're around for folks who want more realism etc. And given the fact that Paramount pressed Berman and Piller (and Taylor) to create yet another Trek one year after TNG retired, a mere two seasons into DS9, and right in between two TNG feature films, I imagine they were hard-pressed to come up with the most well-thought out premise. I thought the creators made it clear they really wanted to hold off for several more years before attempting to design an entirely new, unique Trek series.



This is old, but about acting-captain Tuvok selecting an XO: why not Harry Kim? He is one of the senior officers (unlike Joe Carey), runs Ops, is an optimistic guy who could "rally the troops", would follow Tuvok's lead, knows Starfleet regulations well, and would be an ideal candidate for Tuvok to mentor and mold into an XO. Plus he was adept at a variety of things and often ran the night shift. Unfortunately, the writers decided to keep him a perpetual green ensign, as though there's some limit to how many lieutenants can be aboard a ship. With all the crew losses, I'd think there'd be room for a promotion. I think Janeway's excuse of not being able to promote everyone lest she end up with a ship full of lt. commanders was unreasonable for Kim.


Nonetheless, I think VOY is a lot of fun for escapist entertainment. DS9 fits the need for exciting/unparalleled drama, quasi-serialization, superb character development, and darker/edgier themes, and TNG fills the niche of watching the beloved the flagship, perform diplomacy, examine modern-day issues via analogy, explore, map, and moralize about about a most optimistic view of 24th century humanity. VOY played it safe, apparently at UPN's behest, but its lovable cast of characters makes it worth it to me.

 

[Anwar]

Cardassians and Klingons already got the Lion's Share of development and screentime in TNG and DS9, so I'd argue that VOY was the right time to finally delve into the Federation's oldest enemy in the Romulans. Why would they be in the badlands? Maybe they weren't, they can easily just have it be in the Neutral Zone where ships have been disappearing.

Chakotay was a poor choice to be the Maquis leader, given that he was an Ex-Fleeter himself and he wasn't even a traitor like Sisko's friend from "The Maquis" or Eddington since he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis. Someone who really was against the Feds would've made better drama.

But make them Romulans, and the problems go away.

I don't see why DS9 fans would've cared so much about realism and the ship running properly seeing how this stuff was also in DS9 itself. Hell, DS9 should've been the run-down place constantly needing repairs and energy given it was a war front but it looked A-Okay all the time and the Defiant was always A-Okay too except when it was destroyed. In a war stretching resources, both the Station and the Defiant would've been more worn out.

 

[Cepstrum]

Cardassians and Klingons already got the Lion's Share of development and screentime in TNG and DS9, so I'd argue that VOY was the right time to finally delve into the Federation's oldest enemy in the Romulans. Why would they be in the badlands? Maybe they weren't, they can easily just have it be in the Neutral Zone where ships have been disappearing.

Chakotay was a poor choice to be the Maquis leader, given that he was an Ex-Fleeter himself and he wasn't even a traitor like Sisko's friend from "The Maquis" or Eddington since he formally resigned and THEN joined the Maquis. Someone who really was against the Feds would've made better drama.

But make them Romulans, and the problems go away.

I don't see why DS9 fans would've cared so much about realism and the ship running properly seeing how this stuff was also in DS9 itself. Hell, DS9 should've been the run-down place constantly needing repairs and energy given it was a war front but it looked A-Okay all the time and the Defiant was always A-Okay too except when it was destroyed. In a war stretching resources, both the Station and the Defiant would've been more worn out.

The only problem I see with Romulans is the expense, time, and actors' annoyance at playing an alien every week. With about 50 Romulans on board, they'd *have* to show not just one or two main characters, but a lot of the background characters would have to appear in full Romulan garb. As it was, all they had to do was show humans walking around — you couldn't tell whether they were Maquis unless they were officers and you got a close up of their rank insignia. That kept us more-or-less assuming that quite a few crew could be former Maquis. How convenient!

And I agree having a long time Starfleet and highly principled main Maquis guy — ie, Chakotay — made him an odd choice as a rep for the Maquis.

As for the DS9 thing, what I meant was that going from a show in which events mattered to where they virtually didn't would be disappointing.

 

[Anwar]

Eh, considering how lots of background people walked around in DS9 with Bajoran makeup on I doubt having lots of pointed ear people would've mattered so much. Just convince the makeup folks that they don't all have to have the Stooges haircut and have plenty of Romulan uniforms around.

Actors annoyed at playing aliens..in Star Trek? Get all the extras who were in alien makeup in TNG and DS9 to come by every once in a while and tell the VOY cast to STFU.

DS9 wasn't all that great when it came to events having lots of consequences. I mean "Hard Time" should've permanently changed O'Brien but he was okay by next episode. It got better once the Dominion showed up, but that was due to an external threat that was always close by due to the stationary position of the show. VOY was not stationary so events really shouldn't have mattered.

And in NuBSG, events that should've permanently been remembered were usually forgotten about in a season as well. It's just that the show was only on for 4 seasons that this didn't show up too much.

 

[Vurok]

Why would they be in the badlands? Maybe they weren't, they can easily just have it be in the Neutral Zone where ships have been disappearing.

Indeed, lol, if we are re-writing the pilot we could just as easily change the location

:self-facepalm:

 

[Shatnertage]

The only problem I see with Romulans is the expense, time, and actors' annoyance at playing an alien every week. With about 50 Romulans on board, they'd *have* to show not just one or two main characters, but a lot of the background characters would have to appear in full Romulan garb. As it was, all they had to do was show humans walking around — you couldn't tell whether they were Maquis unless they were officers and you got a close up of their rank insignia. That kept us more-or-less assuming that quite a few crew could be former Maquis. How convenient!

This is it, exactly. There's no way they'd do this for Romulans, much less Cardassians.

 

[Anwar]

I don't see why not, wearing a Romulan outfit is no different than any other Trek outfit, and all they have to do to the extras is give them Elf ears. They don't all have to have that same Romulan haircut.

DS9 got away with alien extras all the time.

 

[exodus]

The premise stated that the other crew would be Maquis.

We may be arguing semantics here, but a premise would not usually be that specific or detailed, it would usually be a short statement - i.e. "A Federation ship is lost in the Delta Quadrant." Unless there an 'official' show premise that I have missed?

It would've been better if they were Romulans.

I agree it could have been better, but what would a Romulan ship have been doing in the Badlands two years before they allied against the Dominion? It was more likely to be a Cardassian ship, which would still have been more interesting than the Maquis.

The Maquis were never going to be a huge source of conflict for VOY since their conflict was with the Cardassians and was based on the DMZ back home. With both removed, there wasn't much reason for a lot of conflict.

I agree, but the clash of cultures could have been interesting if it was prolonged, stuffy Starfleet with their protocol, rules and Vulcans vs. the more impulsive, gung-ho Maquis. It would have been better if B'Elanna was their leader.

People keep complaining that the show should've been more like Farscape or Galactica, so I'm pointing out that the stuff they also want didn't even happen much in either show.

I like Galactica and Star Trek in part because they are different. I would hate for them to have been the same. Not sure if I ever Farscape, maybe just the pilot...

This is a very good post.

 

[Anwar]

Vurok's and mine, or just Vuroks'?

 

[Cepstrum]

I don't see why not, wearing a Romulan outfit is no different than any other Trek outfit, and all they have to do to the extras is give them Elf ears. They don't all have to have that same Romulan haircut.

DS9 got away with alien extras all the time.

Anwar, you make very good points. For the sake of argument, however, I'll try to continue to be disagreeable.

1. Bajoran makeup is much simpler than Romulan. All it involves is a little nose stuff. Romulans, OTOH, have the big uniforms, ears (which I think are actually pretty time-consuming), forehead ridges (probably simpler), intricate hair (shaved heads with black wigs), the shaved and pointed eyebrows, and seem to have a fairly uniform skin color.

The ears and hair I'd think would the biggest problem from a time and cost POV. I doubt the ears (but maybe the wigs) are modular. I think they'd have to be custom-made for each extra. And the forehead ridges (which is how I prefer Romulans) and eyebrows wouldn't be trivial.

Though I'm *sure* you're right about them having little trouble finding very ready and willing people to be an extra in Trek no matter what kind of alien gear they have to wear!


2. About nuBSG and/or Farscape: I have no response because I've seen neither. The only other sci-fi shows I've seen are Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis. They both make me think of the Pacific NW and British Columbia. It seems most of the planets they visited bear a striking resemblance to the Northern Cascades. Hehe

3. I don't have much or any of a problem with VOY's episodic stories, and I realize DS9 wasn't a fully serialized show. Furthermore, I realize that the latter's setting is far more conducive to arcs and permanent effects. But I think arcs aside, DS9 fans would argue that there was much more character development and coherency to a consistent formula, whereas almost each VOY show was very different. It is *much* easier for a non-fan to jump right into VOY at almost any point, whereas it'd be pretty hard to get the notion of what's going on in DS9 if you started somewhere other than the first few seasons.



I *do* agree that having Romulans instead of Maquis would have been cool. I don't know what to think about the notion that Voyager was truly lost without knowing which way is home. It would have made seeing Kazon and Talaxians for two years more reasonable, though. As it was, it seemed those two aliens followed Voyager for a whole two years!

 

[Anwar]

Well, the Romulan uniform problem wouldn't be much of the problem. In DS9 they streamlined them so they didn't have the 80s shoulders anymore.

Babylon 5 also got away with the extras wearing a LOT more makeup than Trek extras, and their budget was much lower. And theirs were a wide variety of alien appearances, not just one.

As for the hair, well Romulans in TOS had normal hair so just use that.

VOY Having a consistent tone was a problem, yes. Which can be easily solved by having the Producers all sit down and agree on what that tone would be in the first place. Get the show off UPN, and get Jeri Taylor off the show as well (since she wanted TNG Mark II), and maybe hire a new writing staff like Berman wanted, and this problem is also gone.

Aliens showing up for several years, well no one complained that Moya could never escape the Peacekeepers in Farscape or Galactica could never escape the Cylons...

Here, this is a write-up I did a few years ago which explains my ideas further:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=101620

 

[Cepstrum]

I don't see why not, wearing a Romulan outfit is no different than any other Trek outfit, and all they have to do to the extras is give them Elf ears. They don't all have to have that same Romulan haircut.

DS9 got away with alien extras all the time.

Edit: ooops. This was supposed to be a reply to your earlier message. I added stuff at the bottom, but it got in as a new post. And meanwhile, you'd already responded to my half-completed post! Sorry, Anwar, that I was unable to address your new points. Here it is, anyway.


Anwar, you make very good points. For the sake of argument, however, I'll try to continue to be disagreeable.

1. Bajoran makeup is much simpler than Romulan. All it involves is a little nose stuff. Romulans, OTOH, have the big uniforms, ears (which I think are actually pretty time-consuming), forehead ridges (probably simpler), intricate hair (shaved heads with black wigs), the shaved and pointed eyebrows, and seem to have a fairly uniform skin color.

The ears and hair I'd think would the biggest problem from a time and cost POV. I doubt the ears (but maybe the wigs) are modular. I think they'd have to be custom-made for each extra. And the forehead ridges (which is how I prefer Romulans) and eyebrows wouldn't be trivial.

Though I'm *sure* you're right about them having little trouble finding very ready and willing people to be an extra in Trek no matter what kind of alien gear they have to wear!


2. About nuBSG and/or Farscape: I have no response because I've seen neither. The only other sci-fi shows I've seen are Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis. They both make me think of the Pacific NW and British Columbia. It seems most of the planets they visited bear a striking resemblance to the Northern Cascades. Hehe

3. I don't have much or any of a problem with VOY's episodic stories, and I realize DS9 wasn't a fully serialized show. Furthermore, I realize that the latter's setting is far more conducive to arcs and permanent effects. But I think arcs aside, DS9 fans would argue that there was much more character development and coherency to a consistent formula, whereas almost each VOY show was very different. It is *much* easier for a non-fan to jump right into VOY at almost any point, whereas it'd be pretty hard to get the notion of what's going on in DS9 if you started somewhere other than the first few seasons.



I *do* agree that having Romulans instead of Maquis would have been cool. I don't know what to think about the notion that Voyager was truly lost without knowing which way is home. It would have made seeing Kazon and Talaxians for two years more reasonable, though. As it was, it seemed those two aliens followed Voyager for a whole two years!

Edit: I realize I forgot to address two of points: allowing Romulans to "let their hair down" and the fact that DS9 was teeming with aliens in full garb.

4. Hair. I think you *have* to keep the hairstyle. It's one of the Romulan's most distinguishing features, and it's consistent with their society's rigid and conforming style (which in terms of logic, their Vulcan cousins took to the extreme).

5. The myriad DS9 aliens. Most of the background aliens in DS9 were Bajoran and Ferengi. But the Ferengi, who have extremely complicated makeup, were, I believe, all played by the same small set of actors. ie, even the few background Ferengi working at Quark's were played by the same guys, so they didn't have to create new getup for extras each week.

The Bajorans, as I mentioned, were very simple. Just an earring and a little makeup on the nose. They even toned down their features from how they first appeared in TNG.

Others: Morn just had to wear the same big suit. There were a few exotic creatures at the dabo tables, but they weren't very noticeable or detailed. And there were at times a few rarely-seen/unknown alien types seen walking around the promenade, but it was mostly human Starfleet or Bajorans.

As for these "special" aliens, TNG and VOY usually had aliens-of-the-week, too. But we had no preconceptions of their appearance, and in addition, that's probably where a lot of alien makeup budget went for those shows. If VOY were to add dozens of Romulans in the background each episode, have a few regulars be Romulan, *and* encounter aliens-of-the-week, I'd think it'd greatly up their makeup budget.

But there is a counter to that: consider thar DS9 featured Garak and the other semi-regular Cardassians, and that at times, the station or other places were filled with Cardassians (and sometimes Jem'Hadar and Vorta). And Cardassians, like Ferengi, I'm sure are more time-consuming and expensive than Romulans.

Still, I assume that VOY always used up its budget each season. Adding a bunch of Romulans *would* cost, and they'd have to take money away from somewhere else. I don't know what they could cut back on. I do know money was often tight, which is why they made bottle shows and sometimes had to have Starfleet extras/admirals use old uniforms (maybe not in VOY, but in the other shows). I doubt VOY could cut back on much except for space opticals (which already relied heavily on stock footage) and/or aliens. Maybe they would've made fewer Borg episodes, which I'm sure would not have bothered many .

One last thing: given Romulans' tendency for scheming and xenophobia, I think it'd be hard to swallow having 50+ Romulans on board without them attempting to take over. I suppose it's possible they'd be willing to serve under Starfleet to get home, but I doubt they'd follow many rules. It'd be like a bunch of Seska's on board.


Ok, really one last thing: many UFP races are popular, such as Vulcans. So why is Voyager almost 100% human? I'd think fans (I know I would) would love to see more Vulcans, Andorians, Bolians, etc as background crew. So why didn't they do that? My guess is for the same reasons having a bunch of background Romulans didn't happen: it's just too costly and time-consuming. I highly doubt that Starfleet is supposed to be 99% human. I'm sure they'd *like* to be able to regularly show far more diverse crews but can't. Voyager had, IIRC, all human non regulars except for the seldom-seen Vorik, Chell, and Tabor. And we only saw Chell and Tabor each twice, I believe. And Vorik just about a half dozen times.


But I still agree it'd have been cool to have Romulans on board.

 

[Anwar]

If Voyager was made after DS9, CGI tech would've been more advanced to the point it was easier to use (which is why NuBSG could use it more often and change the ship design, although it's budget was far lower). Being made in 1995 meant it was more expensive and they wouldn't do anything in the early seasons since they were using expensive physical models then.

Also, if they cut back on the space battling a little it would save a lot of money too since those were more expensive back in the mid-90s. Which again suggests it would better to do the show in the post-2000s.

And not all the Romulans were xenophobic or scheming. We saw plenty of more "I'm just a solider serving my Empire" types, and hell that's how they were introduced. Voyager with Romulans would be the best time to explore Romulans the way Klingons and Cardassians got explored. We saw plenty of more nuanced Cardassians and I think they were far more xenophobic than the Romulans were. We'd get to see just what Romulan rules and regulations are like and how they contrast with Starfleet.

Vorik was because of nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

But yes, more aliens in the crew would make more sense too. Andorians weren't used until ENT because makeup tech hadn't advanced to the point they could be actual characters. But the others would work. I mean there's no difference between Betazoids and humans, so that's no problem...

 

[Cepstrum]

If Voyager was made after DS9, CGI tech would've been more advanced to the point it was easier to use (which is why NuBSG could use it more often and change the ship design, although it's budget was far lower). Being made in 1995 meant it was more expensive and they wouldn't do anything in the early seasons since they were using expensive physical models then.

Also, if they cut back on the space battling a little it would save a lot of money too since those were more expensive back in the mid-90s. Which again suggests it would better to do the show in the post-2000s.

And not all the Romulans were xenophobic or scheming. We saw plenty of more "I'm just a solider serving my Empire" types, and hell that's how they were introduced. Voyager with Romulans would be the best time to explore Romulans the way Klingons and Cardassians got explored. We saw plenty of more nuanced Cardassians and I think they were far more xenophobic than the Romulans were. We'd get to see just what Romulan rules and regulations are like and how they contrast with Starfleet.

Vorik was because of nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

But yes, more aliens in the crew would make more sense too. Andorians weren't used until ENT because makeup tech hadn't advanced to the point they could be actual characters. But the others would work. I mean there's no difference between Betazoids and humans, so that's no problem...

Ok, Anwar. I capitulate. I agree with you on all the points you just made, even the Vorik-Taylor connection.


Nonetheless, I love VOY. It's actually the only series that I own DVD boxed seasons of.

And I *do* wish they'd waited, especially for the SFX. Until seasons four and five, I thought they were the worst of all TNG-era series. I can't figure out why, though.

 

[Anwar]

Oh, I love the series too. I defend it more than any other Trek series.

The FX weren't bad, they just kind of went overboard. In TNG and DS9 when they did the space battles there was a sense that there was something really at stake but in VOY they did them so often the effect was diluted.

 

[Cepstrum]

If Voyager was made after DS9, CGI tech would've been more advanced to the point it was easier to use (which is why NuBSG could use it more often and change the ship design, although it's budget was far lower). Being made in 1995 meant it was more expensive and they wouldn't do anything in the early seasons since they were using expensive physical models then.

Also, if they cut back on the space battling a little it would save a lot of money too since those were more expensive back in the mid-90s. Which again suggests it would better to do the show in the post-2000s.

And not all the Romulans were xenophobic or scheming. We saw plenty of more "I'm just a solider serving my Empire" types, and hell that's how they were introduced. Voyager with Romulans would be the best time to explore Romulans the way Klingons and Cardassians got explored. We saw plenty of more nuanced Cardassians and I think they were far more xenophobic than the Romulans were. We'd get to see just what Romulan rules and regulations are like and how they contrast with Starfleet.

Vorik was because of nepotism, he's Jeri Taylor's son.

But yes, more aliens in the crew would make more sense too. Andorians weren't used until ENT because makeup tech hadn't advanced to the point they could be actual characters. But the others would work. I mean there's no difference between Betazoids and humans, so that's no problem...

Ok, Anwar. I capitulate. I agree with you on all the points you just made, even the Vorik-Taylor connection.


Nonetheless, I love VOY. It's actually the only series that I own DVD boxed seasons of.

And I *do* wish they'd waited, especially for the SFX. Until seasons four and five, I thought they were the worst of all TNG-era series. I can't figure out why, though.


Edit: a couple more reasons for your case:

• consider that the two *Tal'Shiar* POWs in DS9 had no problem working with Starfleet people (and a Breen and Garak), and they even committed rather selfless acts of helpful bravery to increase their chances of escape (one got vaporized). And these weren't regular soldiers but highly loyal Tal'Shiar operatIves.

• It would have been a great storyline to have the Romulans initially suspicious, mistrustful, and arrogant towards the majority-Starfleet crew, only willing to reluctantly cooperate because of necessity. But by the middle or end, they could come to appreciate Starfleet crew and gain a new respect for them, perhaps leading to better relations in the future after they returned. Both sides could learn from the other and realize they have been too judgmental. Now *that* would've been interesting.

Instead we got Maquis who really had no particular interest in hating Starfleet, especially in the DQ. Many of them were former Starfleet anyway. And once they received news in season four that the Maquis were wiped out — but by the Dominion, not Starfleet or even the Cardassians, which completely took the motivation for defying a Starfleet crew away. Now if it had been *Starfleet*/Sisko that had wiped them out, that would've reignited conflict but in a new way, for at that point they'd feel ambivalent. They'd hate Starfleet but also know the Voyager crew was not to blame and had become their friends. It still would've made things delicate and created possible tense situations. All we ended up getting from that was B'Elanna's extremely delayed, one-episode spiral into depression, guilt, and self-harm (which was dealt with in 40 minutes and never mentioned again!). I think it's for those kinds of reasons that cause DS9 fans to be turned off by VOY. There weren't many big events that showed up out of the blue in one episode only to disappear by the next (though there *were* arcs in VOY, such as the Kazon-Seska ordeal, Braxton, Tom and B'Elanna's relationship, marriage, and child, the Doc's radical transformation, teaching Seven to reassert her humanity, the Vidiians, Talaxians, Kes's development of mental powers, Tom turning into a less self-centered guy, the Hirogen, the repurcussions of giving Hirogen holo technology — though curiously they would anger the Kazon by refusing to give them a replicator for water — the Pathfinder project, meeting the Ferengi who came there in TNG, and the ability to have unlimited shuttles — hey, at least it was consistent!).

But it was just a different kind of story arcs from DS9; in most cases, one episode had little or nothing to do with another. That's why I own a few seasons. It makes for great fun to watch an episode here or there, but I wouldn't want a single DS9 season unless I could get them all and watch them in order.

One more theme/arc: the Borg Queen's new passion for all things Voyager and Janeway. She got pretty obsessed for a "species" that is supposed to be wholly dispassionate.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The premise was fine, in fact it's probably the best of any Star Trek series: Take a Starfleet spaceship and maroon it on the far side of the galaxy with a passel of Maquis foes. Challenge everyone to work together to get home - if they even want to get home (these folks have chosen a spacefaring life; you can't tell me some of them wouldn't see being at the ass-end of space as a prime opportunity to do what they were in space to do, to begin with, namely EXPLORE!)

The cast of actors were also competent. The problem was in the writing and in the vision for the series. The vision was too cowardly and conservative to do justice to the fine premise and actors. There's no reason the Maquis had to be neutered or the Borg had to be turned into a joke or Voyager had to become Starship Cornucopia. It was a failure of imagination and nerve, to have a premise with gripping dramatic possibilities and run for the reset button every time. This is why VOY ranks with ENT as Star Trek's greatest lost opportunity, except with ENT, they didn't even get the premise right, so I'm not sure if that's a greater lost opportunity or less.

I still maintain that 'Lost in Space Star Trek' stymied the writers ability to develop longer story arcs outside of the crew and use illogical plots [e.g. time travel reset buttons] to solve problems within the stories themselves.

The plot arcs need to be among the characters on the ship. The aliens are just window dressing. It would have been no barrier to telling excellent stories but there had to be a willingness to allow real and serious conflict among the crew.

 

[Anwar]

Well, actually yes the Borg did have to be neutered, or only used once. You need lots of cannon fodder for the Borg to maintain their menace, like how DS9 made sure there was always cannon fodder when using the Dominion. A show like VOY can't really supply that kind of cannon fodder.

And the conflict would have to be an interesting one to begin with. In NuBSG the whole military/civilian thing was kind of dumb seeing how both sides were utter dummies but the framing story of fleeing from a genocide and having no home to return to made the conflict make sense, in Farscape the crew weren't a crew but a bunch of escaped violent criminals so naturally that's a lot of conflict.

With VOY, the Maquis weren't the right choice. Romulans, Cardassians, even Ferengi would have been a better choice. REAL enemies working together is a better premise than "Guys who really aren't the enemy when you think about it". Nor was it a good idea to have their leader be someone who wasn't all that opposed to the Feds. It would've been like if they had the Peacekeeper on Moya be Gilina instead of Aeryn.

Also, the lack of an external story does stymie things. Plot arcs being solely amongst the crew may look good when writing it down, but on screen not so much. Farscape had the whole Wormhole tech series plot, and the Peacekeeper/Scarran War as an external plot to drive the show. NuBSG had the humans be the only survivors of their entire civilization, meaning that if they died then they were all gone. With VOY, it was about one tiny unimportant ship that had no real mark on anything. If they all died, so what? They hadn't done anything to really merit any sort of emotional response from the audience.

Now, involve them in some big story involving the welfare of the DQ, and suddenly things get more important. Which of course, means that more development and time had to be put on the story outside of Voyager. I mean, Farscape, DS9 and NuGalactica spent their entire runs developing the Peacekeepers, the Dominion and the Cylons. VOY needed the same amount of time for their external stories.

 

[Anwar]

Basically, I'm of the opinion that VOY was not the right show for a Network that did not want anything innovative or daring. It was either a show for sci-fi, or syndication.

 

[Cepstrum]

Anwar's right, of course.

There is but one positive I see, though, on it starting in 1995 and the network UPN: had it been 10 years later on ScyFy etc., I'm afraid it might have gotten too edgy. I like Trek bright and relatively wholesome, not gritty and pushing the envelope. I already thought Enterprise went too far in that direction, especially regarding the gratuitous and rather inane sex themes and sexually charged atmosphere and younger actors.

Yes, I know Trek has always inserted sex here and there since TOS, but it can be more tasteful and mature.

I *think* an anology of what I'm trying to say might be found in comparing Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis to what I've heard about Universe. This new show (which I've not seen), apparently took the rather comedic and campy tone of the first two and turned it into a dark, gritty, violent, sex show. (Of course, comparing Stargate to Trek is a little flawed; the former is already a little darker — at least more violent — because it's centered around the USAF and some scary villians. But it *is* like Trek in that it seems the good guys always want to establish peace with the villians when possible — even trying to cure the Wraiths. And there were plenty of "fun" episodes. The difference was that our Stargate heroes either carried or had protection on away missions with guys carrying PP5 mini machine guns. And automatic pistols.)


But one of the things I thought separated TNG-era Trek from contemporary shows and later sci-fi shows was the relative maturity of the actors. Sure, all the actors were handsome or more beautiful than average, but they were also much older and less blatantly sexy than the trend of using very young-looking, ripped or hugely muscular, adolescent-types with drug-induced ultra-low bodyfat.

The cast of TNG and DS9 were really quite old/mature-looking, and even the original cast of VOY looked more realistically mature — wasn't Roxanne Dawson in her mid or upper thirties? But you could see the tide shifting already by 1997-8 when the producers felt they needed to bring in Jeri Ryan as a blatant attempt to appeal the young male demographic. Fortunately, Ryan turned out to acquit herself well as an actress by doing some difficult things: joining a show mid-run because the other women weren't attractive enough, playing a highly unusual character rather believably, forced to keep her figure perfect throughout the show's run so she could fit into those tight outfits (one of the early ones was so tight it cut off her circulation and made or nearly or actually pass out, I believe), and finally, pretty much carrying the show by having every other episode focused on her, which would not only be tiring but I imagine awkward/embarrassing as it doubtless caused resentment for the rest of the ensemble who felt pushed aside (Beltran, Kim? eg).

So I could tolerate Seven in spite of her appearance, which I disliked very much both because of its signal as well as its (IMO) complete lack of an in-universe explanation: I thought it made *no* sense for her, of all people, to wear an uncomfortable, non-utilitarian, non-conformist, and obviously distracting outfit. She's free to dress as she likes I suppose as a non crew member, but *why* would she ever choose to wear that, unless it were out of spite (to both the other females as well as the males, who she was uninterested in)?


Sorry for the lengthy digression. But I'm afraid if VOY were made, say, in 2005 on ScyFy we'd get more of that. As support, I'd point to the SW prequels, Enterprise, and most of all, STXI. Regardless of whether you're a fan of the reboot, it's clear *all* the main cast were far younger, sexier, and less mature-looking (or life-like) than any cast before. You could challk up their youthfulness because they're all cadets, but that might be *why* they were cadets during the events of the movie.

I don't think we'll ever be returning to a viable show — even Trek — having a cast of handsome, mature, more life-like people. Had TNG been made today, I highly doubt we'd get an aging, bald, serious captain, Crusher, Geordi, Riker, etc. They'd make Worf have the build of a bodybuilder, Data could probably remain, and *maybe* Troi, though I doubt it.

Tastes have changed. Studios want to make money. And I'm even in supposedly coveted 18--30 male demographic. But *I* still prefer having casts that, while certainly better-looking than average, were *not* unrealistic adolescent/young, bodybuilders/absurdly scuplted/shaped (male *and* female) models who appeal chiefly to base instincts/fantasies. It makes any film or show automatically look "dumber", IMO.

I guess if people really did look like that it'd be one thing, but since I've seen how post-production, HGH, and makeup/Photoshop so *heavily* alter actors until they no longer look human, I've been turned off/skeptical of the way many actors etc look these days. It's just not real, and it makes me feel as though people my age care principally about physical attractiveness (and cool explosions), not compelling or thought provoking stories. And certainly not Trek's optimistic vision of a new humanity that not only has eschewed greed, but works to better the rest of humanity irrespective of superficial physical appearance.


Sorry for the rant. I wonder if anyone else, especially those in my age cohort, feel this way. Perhaps it would warrant a new thread. Obviously I'm in the minority, but I wonder if other young Trek fans feel as I do. Maybe it's just the public *in general* and *not* Trekkies. Still, that'd matter little to Paramount, whose interest is in maximizing revenue. STXI probably came close to that by carefully trying to appeal both to Trekkies as well as the general public, which Abrams's clearly did achieve. And his casting of Kirk was reasonable. Sure, he was young and handsome but not over-the-top. Besides, no one wants to see ugly actors playing lead roles. Most of the crew actually did a fairly decent job of not appearing as unrealistic, just too young, IMO.


Ok, end of off topic rant. But hey — I began on topic, just digressed a little.

I'd love to hear feedback. If not here, then maybe a new thread.