Weyoun 6 vs. Weyoun: Who was REALLY defective?

[DS9 Gal AZ]

In the season seven episode "Treachery, Faith, and the Great River" (correct me if I got the name wrong), we have Weyoun 6, who is generally considered to be defective because ... well, he defects to the other side. On the surface, it would seem obvious he's the one who has something "wrong" with him. However, he is still completely loyal to Odo, in the end terminating himself to prevent Odo's death.

Meanwhile, Weyoun 7 is actually willing to blow up their shuttle - with Odo, one of his gods, in it - to prevent his "predecessor" from spilling Dominion secrets to the Federation. True, he has to be convinced by Damar, but still ... and then he is planning on concealing it from the rest of the Founders! All this, after Female Founder said to Weyoun 5 that getting Odo back into the Great Link meant more to them than the entire Alpha Quadrant.

So, back to the question in the title: Which of them was really defective? #6, who was willing to spill secrets to the Federation, or #7 who was willing to kill one of his gods (though not directly)? Or are they both "defective" in different ways?

I'm interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

 

[Praxius]

They're both defective in their own ways.... one was going to betray his gods against just one god that didn't recognize himself as a god, betray his allies, etc..... and the other was going to kill a god and try and cover it up from the rest of the gods.... imo, the defector was the more defective, but then it occurred to me that perhaps the new Weyoun never had any intentions of killing Odo in the first place and was just bluffing, which would tie into his typical deviousness.... which at this point we'll never know.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

but then it occurred to me that perhaps the new Weyoun never had any intentions of killing Odo in the first place and was just bluffing, which would tie into his typical deviousness.... which at this point we'll never know.

Oh, I never thought of that, that's a very good spin on things! I remember thinking it was OOC for Weyoun (any version) to be willing to kill Odo. It makes much more sense if he was bluffing, just to get Weyoun 6 to off himself.

 

[Praxius]

Oh, I never thought of that, that's a very good spin on things! I remember thinking it was OOC for Weyoun (any version) to be willing to kill Odo. It makes much more sense if he was bluffing, just to get Weyoun 6 to off himself.

Well it's a possibility, but a problem with that idea is why would he extend the bluff to Damar and the Female Founder, other then to dupe the viewer?

 

[radk32]

Oh, I never thought of that, that's a very good spin on things! I remember thinking it was OOC for Weyoun (any version) to be willing to kill Odo. It makes much more sense if he was bluffing, just to get Weyoun 6 to off himself.

Well it's a possibility, but a problem with that idea is why would he extend the bluff to Damar and the Female Founder, other then to dupe the viewer?

Exactly. Thats why I don't believe he was bluffing.

To bluff Weyoun 6 is understandable. But why bluff Damar, lie to the founder and put Odo in danger? It doesn't make sense. Furthermore his statement to Damar that "I suppose Odo doesn't consider himself a founder", sounds more like an attempt at rationalizing the murder of a God.

My take on it was that they were both "defective".

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Well, he'd bluff Damar b/c he didn't want Damar thinking he'd call off the ships at the last minute, and he'd bluff Female Founder b/c she probably wouldn't approve of the plan b/c there was still some risk of Odo being hurt. I would assume that he knew Weyoun 6 would terminate if he realized/believed Odo would be killed (b/c he knows him like he knows himself, because they are kind of the same person). If it was a bluff, it was a risky one. I wouldn't put it past Weyoun, who once called himself an "expert at lies," to be fooling everyone as to his true motives/intentions.

 

[DevilEyes]

Well, the question is, what does it mean for a Vorta to be "defective"? If the idea is that a "perfect", "healthy" Vorta is the one obeying Founders in all things, that's a big problem, since the Founders don't all agree among themselves (Odo disagreed with the Great Link and the FF), so what are the Vorta supposed to do? Where should their loyalties lie? The problem lies with the Founders, not the Vorta.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I guess it must be confusing for those poor Vorta, DevilEyes. Imagine if Odo and FF have simultaneously given them contradictatory orders, the Vorta's head would explode!

 

[FormerLurker]

That would have been an interesting effect.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

The Founders created Vortas to have no morals other than "obey the Founders" because, while they might be more effective if able to think independently like Weyoun 6, it's just a matter of time before they realize that the Founders are a pack of paranoid whackjobs and there goes the unquestioning loyalty thing. If Vorta have no morals, they have no basis for questioning whatever lunacy the Founders order them to participate in.

Therefore, Weyoun 6's morals that went beyond unquestioning loyalty were a design defect in the sense that he wasn't designed to work that way.

Weyoun 7 may also have been defective, since it shouldn't have been possible for him to plot to kill a Founder. That might have been an example of independent thinking overriding unquestioning loyalty, if he took it upon himself to decide that killing Odo would benefit Founders in general, and was an acceptable loss. And although that might be commendable in someone who has command-level authority, it's obviously a threat to the Founders' need for total control.

And then there's the infamous example of Keevan, who put saving his own hide over the good of the Dominion. Highly defective. Intelligence should be a key attribute of Vortas but Weyoun 4 was pretty stupid getting himself offed by the Jems. Weyoun 5 should have predicted Damar's little transporter accident stunt, so he wasn't much smarter, but at least he fell to a reasonably crafty opponent. Lots of quality control problems in the Vorta cloning vats, it appears.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I knew our favorite Vorta would weigh in! Hi Temis!

 

[Nightdiamond]

The Keevan one is a good example..


The Vorta are supposed to show deference whenever they are in front of a Founder.

Does anyone remember the Vorta that snapped at Odo (and in effect, the other Founder) in The Search II?

Another one, though not as obvious, is when Odo pretends to be the female Founder when he comes aboard a Jem Hadar ship.

She reacts with surprise and Odo basically tells her wherever she/he goes is none of her business.

She acquiesces, but she has this expression and demeanor like.... "eeeesh......"

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

The Keevan one is a good example..


The Vorta are supposed to show deference whenever they are in front of a Founder.

Does anyone remember the Vorta that snapped at Odo (and in effect, the other Founder) in The Search II?

Another one, though not as obvious, is when Odo pretends to be the female Founder when he comes aboard a Jem Hadar ship.

She reacts with surprise and Odo basically tells her wherever she/he goes is none of her business.

She acquiesces, but she has this expression and demeanor like.... "eeeesh......"

The first Vorta you're talking about is Boreth. I always chalked that up to the writers not quite getting down the whole "Vorta worship the Founders thing" early on. After all, Eris did nothing to acknowledge Odo as a Founder. The other Vorta you're talking about, I just remember her being surprised, not put-out.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

The Keevan one is a good example..


The Vorta are supposed to show deference whenever they are in front of a Founder.

Does anyone remember the Vorta that snapped at Odo (and in effect, the other Founder) in The Search II?

Another one, though not as obvious, is when Odo pretends to be the female Founder when he comes aboard a Jem Hadar ship.

She reacts with surprise and Odo basically tells her wherever she/he goes is none of her business.

She acquiesces, but she has this expression and demeanor like.... "eeeesh......"

The first Vorta you're talking about is Boreth. I always chalked that up to the writers not quite getting down the whole "Vorta worship the Founders thing" early on. After all, Eris did nothing to acknowledge Odo as a Founder. The other Vorta you're talking about, I just remember her being surprised, not put-out.

Yes, in "The Abandoned" (Season 3) it was established that the Jem'Hadar were genetically engineered and that they revered the Founders as gods. In, "To the Death" (Season 4) it was established that the Vorta also worshipped the Founders.

In "Ties of Blood and Water" (Season 5) it was first established that the Vorta were in fact clones (and at this point it was not more than a plot device to explain Jeffrey Combs' sudden re-appearance as Weyoun). Subsequent episodes in Seasons 5 and 6 include the first references to the Vorta's status as genetically engineered beings. In "Treachary, Faith and the Great River" (Season 7) it is finally revealed that the Vorta had received a genetic uplift (see David Brin) by the Founders.

At the the time of "The Search" the Vorta were probably considered (by both the Federation and the writers of the show ) to be a "normal species" which at one point had decided to voluntarily join the Dominion.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I knew our favorite Vorta would weigh in! Hi Temis!

Hi yourself! I should write a book on Vortas or something. Now that my second career detailing the many, many, many ways Heroes screwed up has now been terminated, I may have some unexpected free time...

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

I knew our favorite Vorta would weigh in! Hi Temis!

Hi yourself! I should write a book on Vortas or something. Now that my second career detailing the many, many, many ways Heroes screwed up has now been terminated, I may have some unexpected free time...

LOL, you at least write some fanfic featuring the Vorta (I am)! I'd read your fic.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I did write some a loooong time ago when DS9 was still on...read at your own risk, I can't remember if it was any good. Vortas featured prominently in some but not all stories.

 

[DS9 Gal AZ]

Thanks Temis, I will check them out!