The problem with Voyager wasn't the characters but the premise

[Praxius]

You said "Janeway", not Tuvok.

It was Tuvok's descion to go back and get them, not Janeway's.

Your argument holds no water here.

If Janeway had ordered them to return, then, yes, you have a point. But, she didn't. She gave direct orders for them to not turn around.

Indeed... she gave Tuvok orders not to come back for her and chakotay because that's the way she is.... she's the captain and he was the 1st officer/captain of the maquis..... they had a responsibility for their crew's safety and to get them home..... many times she attempted to sacrifice herself for the well being of the crew or at the very least, put herself in danger....

.... but whenever it was some other member of the crew, she wouldn't have any of it.... just look at what happened when Chakotay took off for Seska and the Kazon and told them not to come save him.... she did it anyways.

Or when Seven sacrificed herself to save the ship and crew from the Borg and was taken back to Borg space.... Janeway took the ship all the way back to get her..... when if they didn't, they probably would have gotten farther then they did with the trans warp coil they stole.

She had a double standard for herself and her crew...... thus to expect Tuvok to actually follow her orders of not coming back for her when she wouldn't.... would be illogical

Seven would make a better commander than Chakotay, she challenged Janeway's decisions far more often. Trouble was she also defied Janeway more often while Chakotay was basically Janeway's bitch.

Seven still had a lot to learn about humanity. She was also an emotional adolescent - I have to wonder if her "defiance" was a move to appeal to the desired male adolescent demographic.

Didn't appeal to me in that way.... she just appeared to be an adult teenager testing her boundaries with her mom who laid down some rules she didn't agree with.

 

[Guy Gardener]

That and as a captain of a tactically superior vessel (re Equinox.), Tuvok outranked her.

 

[Ensign Johnson]

I figured Seven's defiance was just to add some conflict. Janeway had managed to win over the Maquis so she needed someone else to clash with for a while. Was there anyone Janeway couldn't charm?

 

[Guy Gardener]

You have to remember that for most of her life she was Borg. She decided to attack and assimilate thousands of cultures, including Earth, and all manner of other blue sky thoughts. Perfect. Above the petty considerations of individuals. In short she was an arrogant ass who knew she knew better and was invincible too boot to survive the consequences of any foolish decisions she may have had to make.

What she became later on, a lackey yes-woman to the human manifesto, wasn't much more healthy a set of personality traits.

 

[exodus]

If Voyager's crew couldn't get home then their job is to found a colony and breed or kill themselves because they are not allowed to let that technolgy fall into alien hands who might be bastards.

Yes, so the series would be about finding a way home instead of knowing how to get home in the first episode. This justifies them sticking around regions of space so the writers can better flesh out aliens and give enough external storylines to drive the series before finding some plot device to help them get home in the end. After all, being away from Earth was nothing but a plot device to get them away from the existing Trekverse.

Starfleet is space Navy.
They'd be pretty piss poor navel officers if they still couldn't chart by the stars after completing the Academy and years of training to earn their ranks. Besides, how can you be lost when the sensors works like a compass?

 

[Guy Gardener]

You understand that constellations don't exist right? You stand on earth and all the stars on gods pallet appear to be on identifiable shapes/positions, but if you stand on any different planet,hen those same stars are all in different jumbled up positions/shapes.

To navigate by stars (according to Asimov) you have to measure the weight and luminance of each star so that it is singularly identifiable from every angle/position as a benchmark to one fixed position in space (even though the star is moving around the core).

Of course measuring positions between the curvature of the great barrier around the core of the galaxy and the galactic barrier around the rim of the galaxy is possible method of navigation.

Meanwhile it might be relatively accurate to measure your position in the milky way by referencing the positions of several other galaxies or fixed positions out side of the milky way.

Space is vast don't chu know?

 

[Destructor]

You understand that constellations don't exist right? You stand on earth and all the stars on gods pallet appear to be on identifiable shapes/positions, but if you stand on any different planet,hen those same stars are all in different jumbled up positions/shapes.

Yeah but computer models could still figure out where you were. We know where the centre of our own galaxy is, for example. Dump us on the other side of the galaxy and it'd still be pretty obvious where the centre is. Figuring out the rest, and where you are in relation to the centre would just be mathematics.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Yup covered that.

Unfortunately Cartography seems to be more political than egalitarian if the second big wheel of cheese day from the west wing with Doctor Phlox is to believed that hard as it is to find the centre of the galaxy "accurately" without really advanced tech that smaller less advanced cultures will be navigating against nearer identifiable landmarks.

 

[Anwar]

You understand that constellations don't exist right? You stand on earth and all the stars on gods pallet appear to be on identifiable shapes/positions, but if you stand on any different planet,hen those same stars are all in different jumbled up positions/shapes.

Yeah but computer models could still figure out where you were. We know where the centre of our own galaxy is, for example. Dump us on the other side of the galaxy and it'd still be pretty obvious where the centre is. Figuring out the rest, and where you are in relation to the centre would just be mathematics.

If it was essential that they not know where they are, I'm sure they could technobabble up some way of explaining it. Another guy on the net I spoke with came up with the idea that VOY would be in an area of space that had been blocked from Federation long-range scans by a huge nebula, and thus they couldn't get a reading on Stars to create a working astro-map.

 

[Vurok]

The problem was not the premise, but the execution. The premise of the show was sound, it provided a fresh angle. Voyager was a great show, few of the problems were related to the premise.

The fact that they were travelling home meant they would have limited contact with any one race, I accept that this was an obstacle, however, there are many narrative devices that could have been used to overcome it. E.g. they could have been stuck in one area for a prolonged period for a variety of reasons (needing to fix they ship, involvement in a war, prevented from leaving by kidnap/rescue mission, the need to find di-lithium etc), they could have been propelled backwards on their journey to revisit previous aliens, one race could have had a domination over a large swathe of the quadrant, they could have taken on an alien crew of say 20 people (planet destroyed, persecuted or whatever). The problem was not the premise, there was plenty of scope there, the execution was not first rate.

Their technological superiority meant they were perhaps unlikely to be destroyed, but if they were attacked consistently by one race with 10 or 20 ships (how many ships do Starfleet/Klingons/Cardassians have?) they would have been outgunned. A more realistic scenario, based on the premise, would have been a much harder struggle to get home. Their passage to the Alpha Quadrant seemed surprisingly comfortable, aside from a few difficulties and attacks. Again, the premise is not the problem, the incorrect application of it was.

There were few bad episodes, but how many of them (or the mind-numbingly cringe-worthy 'Threshold') were due to the premise?

As a whole Voyager did work, though it could have been better. Individual episodes were generally very enjoyable and interesting. As a series, I still maintain it was very good, but it was not perfect. Far from being a weakness of Voyager, the premise was one of the most interesting aspects; the failings of Voyager was that it was not explored well enough.

 

[exodus]

You understand that constellations don't exist right? You stand on earth and all the stars on gods pallet appear to be on identifiable shapes/positions, but if you stand on any different planet,hen those same stars are all in different jumbled up positions/shapes.

To navigate by stars (according to Asimov) you have to measure the weight and luminance of each star so that it is singularly identifiable from every angle/position as a benchmark to one fixed position in space (even though the star is moving around the core).

Of course measuring positions between the curvature of the great barrier around the core of the galaxy and the galactic barrier around the rim of the galaxy is possible method of navigation.

Meanwhile it might be relatively accurate to measure your position in the milky way by referencing the positions of several other galaxies or fixed positions out side of the milky way.

Space is vast don't chu know?

The Star Trek answer to that would be: Azamov wasn't a Vulcan scientest exploring actual space....


Seriously, Trek doesn't use real science and often bends the rules of it anyway by saying such quotes as a openned with. So while what you say is true, we've seen it doesn't matter in Trek. Engineer's can turn rocks into replicators and the ships computer knows everything. It would take a complete memory wipe of it for Voyager to ever truely be lost.

 

[Anwar]

The problem was not the premise, but the execution. The premise of the show was sound, it provided a fresh angle. Voyager was a great show, few of the problems were related to the premise.

Like I said, the Maquis were not a good choice for the opposing members of the crew, nor was it a good idea for them to know their way home right from the start of the show. Both of those limited things right from the start. In Farscape, Crichton as an Astronaut would've been able to figure out where he was in the galaxy but he never did. No one complained there.

The fact that they were travelling home meant they would have limited contact with any one race, I accept that this was an obstacle, however, there are many narrative devices that could have been used to overcome it. E.g. they could have been stuck in one area for a prolonged period for a variety of reasons (needing to fix they ship, involvement in a war, prevented from leaving by kidnap/rescue mission, the need to find di-lithium etc), they could have been propelled backwards on their journey to revisit previous aliens, one race could have had a domination over a large swathe of the quadrant, they could have taken on an alien crew of say 20 people (planet destroyed, persecuted or whatever). The problem was not the premise, there was plenty of scope there, the execution was not first rate.

It was more a case of "screwed either way", since UPN wouldn't let them do arc storytelling and whenever they tried to defy them and do the sorts of stories you're suggesting the audience disliked them (and not for the execution, but for the very concept itself) anyways. So it was a case of "I want them to do this" and then turning on a heel and saying you hate it when they DO do those things.

Their technological superiority meant they were perhaps unlikely to be destroyed, but if they were attacked consistently by one race with 10 or 20 ships (how many ships do Starfleet/Klingons/Cardassians have?) they would have been outgunned.

In Farscape, Moya was always able to get away from the Peacekeepers and rarely EVER took any damage. No one complained. So it doesn't make sense that if Voyager was being hunted, that it HAS to take damage.

A more realistic scenario, based on the premise, would have been a much harder struggle to get home. Their passage to the Alpha Quadrant seemed surprisingly comfortable, aside from a few difficulties and attacks. Again, the premise is not the problem, the incorrect application of it was.

This isn't Galactica where the Universe is wholly empty of aliens and civilization. The Trekverse is full of alien worlds to go get repairs and supplies from, and it would just get boring if every 3 episodes we were stuck with the same damn "go to a space station for repairs" plot.

As a whole Voyager did work, though it could have been better. Individual episodes were generally very enjoyable and interesting. As a series, I still maintain it was very good, but it was not perfect. Far from being a weakness of Voyager, the premise was one of the most interesting aspects; the failings of Voyager was that it was not explored well enough.

The premise was flawed right from the start. The Maquis and always being on the move being the two major flaws.

 

[Guy Gardener]

they decided that DS9 was a faliure standing still, so they had to be always on the move like Kirk and Picard.

I mean, was there ever any hope that the 4th series ( I don't count the animated) was going to be about Deep Space 10?

The Littlest Hobo ran for seven years.

The plot is so Homerific, that Voyager must have been the second choice in title because it seems that it would have been more accurate to call the show Odyssey if only DS9 hadn't cockblocked Voyager by using the Odyssey a couple times in DS9 Season two right up to the Jam'hadar wacking the bastard.

 

[Anwar]

Why not call it the USS Odysseus then?

 

[Guy Gardener]

Because he cheated on his wife constantly?

Heroic Journey, cad of a man.

I wonder if the Simpsons would have sued if they called the vessel the Homer?

Ship named after a blind man? No wonder they got lost.

 

[Vurok]

Like I said, the Maquis were not a good choice for the opposing members of the crew,

That is not the premise, that is the execution. With the same premise, they could have had a Cardassian crew dragged into the Delta Quadrant with them. Also, the Maquis plot line would have worked if they didn't have them integrate so quickly or if Chakotay wasn't such a weak character.

nor was it a good idea for them to know their way home right from the start of the show. Both of those limited things right from the start.

It would not have worked, they would have been aimlessly wandering around. You have not solved the problem of a lack of alien character development. Even if they didn't know the way home, they'd have been exploring or trying to find a way home and would have moved through territory continually, rather than staying stationary and interacting with the same aliens.

The plot of Farscape is irrelevant to Trek.

In Farscape, Moya was always able to get away from the Peacekeepers and rarely EVER took any damage. No one complained. So it doesn't make sense that if Voyager was being hunted, that it HAS to take damage.

If Voyager was being hunted by a particular race, with their tens or hundreds of starships at a slightly lower technological level, they'd have taken damage. The fact that Farscape also avoided the inevitable is irrelevant. Either way, this was nothing to do with the premise.

This isn't Galactica

I know, though you seem to think it is Farscape.

 

[Guy Gardener]

We thought Voyager was Farscape and Galactica in the beginning, because we didn't know no better.

We were ignorant and stupid.

Not enough imagination.

Gods breath, how my eyes have been opened since 1995.

 

[Anwar]

Like I said, the Maquis were not a good choice for the opposing members of the crew,

That is not the premise, that is the execution. With the same premise, they could have had a Cardassian crew dragged into the Delta Quadrant with them. Also, the Maquis plot line would have worked if they didn't have them integrate so quickly or if Chakotay wasn't such a weak character.

nor was it a good idea for them to know their way home right from the start of the show. Both of those limited things right from the start.

It would not have worked, they would have been aimlessly wandering around. You have not solved the problem of a lack of alien character development. Even if they didn't know the way home, they'd have been exploring or trying to find a way home and would have moved through territory continually, rather than staying stationary and interacting with the same aliens.

The plot of Farscape is irrelevant to Trek.

In Farscape, Moya was always able to get away from the Peacekeepers and rarely EVER took any damage. No one complained. So it doesn't make sense that if Voyager was being hunted, that it HAS to take damage.

If Voyager was being hunted by a particular race, with their tens or hundreds of starships at a slightly lower technological level, they'd have taken damage. The fact that Farscape also avoided the inevitable is irrelevant. Either way, this was nothing to do with the premise.

This isn't Galactica

I know, though you seem to think it is Farscape.

The premise stated that the other crew would be Maquis. It would've been better if they were Romulans. Thus, it's an issue with the premise itself. The Maquis were never going to be a huge source of conflict for VOY since their conflict was with the Cardassians and was based on the DMZ back home. With both removed, there wasn't much reason for a lot of conflict. If it was Romulans, the oldest enemies of the Federation, then there's real history and conflict there.

If they didn't know their way home, they'd have to rely on Neelix's knowledge of the area and go to the main centres of civilization for help. This would mean sticking around more and encountering the same aliens and the same people over and over, until they found a way home (which could last a few seasons, theoretically).

People keep complaining that the show should've been more like Farscape or Galactica, so I'm pointing out that the stuff they also want didn't even happen much in either show.

 

[Vurok]

The premise stated that the other crew would be Maquis.

We may be arguing semantics here, but a premise would not usually be that specific or detailed, it would usually be a short statement - i.e. "A Federation ship is lost in the Delta Quadrant." Unless there an 'official' show premise that I have missed?

It would've been better if they were Romulans.

I agree it could have been better, but what would a Romulan ship have been doing in the Badlands two years before they allied against the Dominion? It was more likely to be a Cardassian ship, which would still have been more interesting than the Maquis.

The Maquis were never going to be a huge source of conflict for VOY since their conflict was with the Cardassians and was based on the DMZ back home. With both removed, there wasn't much reason for a lot of conflict.

I agree, but the clash of cultures could have been interesting if it was prolonged, stuffy Starfleet with their protocol, rules and Vulcans vs. the more impulsive, gung-ho Maquis. It would have been better if B'Elanna was their leader.

People keep complaining that the show should've been more like Farscape or Galactica, so I'm pointing out that the stuff they also want didn't even happen much in either show.

I like Galactica and Star Trek in part because they are different. I would hate for them to have been the same. Not sure if I ever Farscape, maybe just the pilot...

 

[JoeD80]

We may be arguing semantics here, but a premise would not usually be that specific or detailed, it would usually be a short statement - i.e. "A Federation ship is lost in the Delta Quadrant." Unless there an 'official' show premise that I have missed?

The TV guide description on cable was usually along the lines of "A Starfleet and Maquis crew are marooned in the Delta Quadrant and must learn to work together." The Maquis were created specifically for Voyager and set up in TNG and DS9 for that purpose. This is mentioned in the Deep Space Nine Companion:

We knew that we wanted to include a renegade element in Voyager, and that the show would involve a ship housing both Starfleet people and these idealistic freedom fighters that the Federation felt were outlaws. So in order to avoid having some burdensome backstory and exposition in Voyager's pilot, we decided we could plant the idea of the Maquis in the shows that were already on the air.