TATV sux!!11!!! vol.47 - the Jonathan Frakes edition

[Dukhat]

Yeah, that was pretty fucked up. They simply should have done this on the Titan or Enterprise-E.

Exactly. It would have made perfect sense to have the episode take place farther in the future, and have Riker be captain of the Enterprise-E or F, post-Titan (if they wanted to go with the Enterprise connection.) It would have explained why he and Sirtis look as old as they do, and not have to shoehorn in a TNG episode that many ENT fans may not have gotten the Pegasus reference from anyway, and didn't work anyway in the context of the original episode.

Brannon Braga stated that TATV was a good idea in concept that fell flat on execution...

And he's right. The concept of someone from the future using a holodeck recreation of the ENT crew for reserach purposes is in and of itself and interesting premise. However, it should not have been used as the finale of the show, and it should not have been Riker and Trio during the events of the Pegasus.

...and to this day I don't think Berman ever told a fan to go fuck him/her/itself.

Of course he didn't. He nor anyone else worth their salt would ever actually say something like that. However, I do have a bit of a hard time believing that he and Braga "spent a lot of time" coming up with TATV. From what I recall, it was hastily written once UPN announced ENT's cancellation, and had all the hallmarks of being simply a first draft that UPN rubber-stamped for production just because it was the end of the series and they didn't give a shit what B&B did.

 

[Pemmer Harge]

If Frakes and Sirtis did it for the money, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. It may not be a noble motivation, but it's one most of us have.

 

[number6]

Actually TATV was written during the third season.

 

[number6]

Brannon Braga stated that TATV was a good idea in concept that fell flat on execution and to this day I don't think Berman ever told a fan to go fuck him/her/itself.

But don't let any real facts get in the way of this ridiculous hyperbolic rant.

God I love it when people take shit literally (and by "shit," I mean stuff or things, not excrement... Oh, and just in case, by "things" and "stuff" I don't mean material objects but written thoughts)...

When you go and post stuff like "Berman basically tells the fans to fuck off" you should put a disclaimer that what you post is always bullshit and then we can all ignore you and move on.

 

[Mach5]

When you go and post stuff like "Berman basically tells the fans to fuck off" you should put a disclaimer that what you post is always bullshit and then we can all ignore you and move on.

You really don't understand the concept of figurative speech, do you?

 

[M'rk son of Mogh]

TATV, however, is all about Riker. The ENT characters are only in it to service the story about Riker finding the courage to do the right thing and tell Picard about the Pegasus.

It has a lot to do with Riker, true. But it is far from 'all' about Riker.

Or do some of the genuine character moments with Trip, T'pol and Archer not count? ie, Archer consoling T'pol in Trip's room, the hug before his big speech, etc.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

God I love it when people take shit literally (and by "shit," I mean stuff or things, not excrement... Oh, and just in case, by "things" and "stuff" I don't mean material objects but written thoughts)...

When you go and post stuff like "Berman basically tells the fans to fuck off" you should put a disclaimer that what you post is always bullshit and then we can all ignore you and move on.

You really don't understand the concept of figurative speech, do you?

Please cut out the personal sniping. You're here to insult TATV, not each other.

And lose the eyerolls.

 

[Noname Given]

Or do some of the genuine character moments with Trip, T'pol and Archer not count? ie, Archer consoling T'pol in Trip's room, the hug before his big speech, etc.

What? You mean the computer generated scenes regarding characters dead for 150 years or so. Again, in story terms, NONE of the Enterprise characters were real - they were computer generated holograms.

And earlier in TNG they showed how 'off' the simulations could be in the episode where geordi met the 'real' Dr. lea Brahms. That's the main issue I have with the episode being the ENT finale. The actual characters we'd seen for fopur TV seasons wern't even IN the episode per se.

 

[Mach5]

Noname given - you are spot on. What we saw in TATV was a vague reconstruction at best. Those moments, those conversations... They never took place, really... At least not in that exact same way.

The 24th century holo-engineers who created that program needed great artistic freedom to actually put everything together because it's hard to believe that they had authentic recordings of every personal conversation/moment that took place during that mission.

 

[JarodRussell]

Or do some of the genuine character moments with Trip, T'pol and Archer not count? ie, Archer consoling T'pol in Trip's room, the hug before his big speech, etc.

What? You mean the computer generated scenes regarding characters dead for 150 years or so. Again, in story terms, NONE of the Enterprise characters were real - they were computer generated holograms.

And earlier in TNG they showed how 'off' the simulations could be in the episode where geordi met the 'real' Dr. lea Brahms. That's the main issue I have with the episode being the ENT finale. The actual characters we'd seen for fopur TV seasons wern't even IN the episode per se.

Only that with Lea Brahms it was actually the point that she behaved differently. With TATV, it was the point that these are the same characters. And they behaved like that, too.

What we saw in TATV was a vague reconstruction at best. Those moments, those conversations... They never took place, really... At least not in that exact same way.

Who said that? Was that mentioned in the episode?

The 24th century holo-engineers who created that program needed great artistic freedom to actually put everything together because it's hard to believe that they had authentic recordings of every personal conversation/moment that took place during that mission.

Hard to believe, but not a point of the story. There was no intention at all that it was a falsified recording. It was supposed to be authentic.

 

[ALF]

Things are going pretty well in here, aren't they?

 

[JarodRussell]

Who said that? Was that mentioned in the episode?

Oh no! So you can't say what proves that it was a vague reconstruction. I say it was a close-to-perfect reconstruction, based on ships logs, biographies, interviews, memoirs. Even more so since that was intended for the episode. It certainly wasn't intended to let Riker watch a forged version of ENT.

 

[JiNX-01]

I also don't think it was a TNG episode. Relics wasn't a TOS episode just because of a cameo and re-used sets.

TATV, however, is all about Riker. The ENT characters are only in it to service the story about Riker finding the courage to do the right thing and tell Picard about the Pegasus.

And yet, holo-Trip's actions (and comments to "Chef") had nothing whatsoever to do with Riker's decision to tell Picard what was really going on with Pressman and the search for The Pegasus.

Nothing.

 

[Shatnertage]

You're here to insult TATV, not each other.

Can I get that on a t-shirt? Or at least in a signature?

Seriously, that line made my night, and explains better than anything else I've read just where TATV stands with most fans.

The funny thing is that the argument is so one-sided. No one's arguing that they like TATV--we're just disagreeing on exactly why it was so bad.

 

[Spork111]

If I was feeling really charitable, I might compare TATV's concept to the final episode of Babylon 5's fourth season - "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". In it, the events and characters of B5 are being analyzed by people in the far future, and it's interesting to see what they think of it all. Of course, I'd say it's a far superior hour of tv than TATV, but the concept is similar.

By the way, B5 only got it's fifth season through an act of God (or rather, Ted Turner )...

 

[Admiral Shran]

I also don't think it was a TNG episode. Relics wasn't a TOS episode just because of a cameo and re-used sets.

TATV, however, is all about Riker. The ENT characters are only in it to service the story about Riker finding the courage to do the right thing and tell Picard about the Pegasus.

And yet, holo-Trip's actions (and comments to "Chef") had nothing whatsoever to do with Riker's decision to tell Picard what was really going on with Pressman and the search for The Pegasus.

Nothing.

Of course not. We all know that what really got him to tell Picard was the simple discovery of the Pegasus. He came to the decision on his own because he understood the gravity of the situation. He didn't need to have Archer, T'Pol, Trip, etc. tell him what to do.

That's why The Pegasus was a horrible episode in which to shoehorn TATV.

 

[Mach5]

That's why The Pegasus was a horrible episode in which to shoehorn TATV.

Yeah, they should have used Up the long ladder or something...

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

If I was feeling really charitable, I might compare TATV's concept to the final episode of Babylon 5's fourth season - "The Deconstruction of Falling Stars". In it, the events and characters of B5 are being analyzed by people in the far future, and it's interesting to see what they think of it all. Of course, I'd say it's a far superior hour of tv than TATV, but the concept is similar.

Except the Bab 5 ep used actual news reels and recordings made by the station crew that had survived. These real life events were contrasted with people in the futures interpretations of them. Having lived through at least some of the events as viewers we could see how these interpretations centuries later were biased.

TATV could have been just as good! Make it a two parter (yeah I can't believe I am advocating for more of it but..). First part is all on the holodeck, it's a history lesson with Riker's story as a springboard. Riker and Troi puzzle over events and motivations of the ENT crew even as Riker works out his own problems. Make this even more of a TNG ep than TATV is now.. or a Titan ep, whatever, you could even have a whole new opening like they did for Mirror Universe. Titan fans could be all a flutter.

Part two is NOT on the holodeck, it is real time Enterprise and we see the truth behind the incomplete events the holodeck showed us in Part one. All is made clear and cliffhangers in Part one are shown to be not how they are remembered and interpreted in the future. There is no Riker or Troi, LOL. Kind of a weird finale but maybe instead of trying to hard to make a finale they should have just made a really good episode with a Federation speech at the end.

 

[Hopeful Romantic]

You're here to insult TATV, not each other.

Can I get that on a t-shirt? Or at least in a signature?

Sure, knock yourself out. (You're on your own for the t-shirt, though.)

To be fair, a few stalwart posters have weighed in to say they do not hate TATV, and that's fine too.

Things are going pretty well in here, aren't they?

"I like this thread! It's exciting!"

 

[Admiral Shran]

That's why The Pegasus was a horrible episode in which to shoehorn TATV.

Yeah, they should have used Up the long ladder or something...

No no no. I think The Best of Both Worlds, Part II would have been the best choice. At the height of the crisis, Riker decides he needs some moral guidance and so retreats into the holodeck to mess around with Archer and Co. The show could then cut back and forth between the whimsical holodeck adventure and the tension of the Borg threat.

Actually, Berman and Braga probably did consider this.