TOS Purists of TrekBBS - Unite!

[number6]

Yes, one aspect of the film that really bugged me was the contrast of Khan's followers compared to the SF cadets. While I do understand that Khan's followers were adapted to survive in a difficult environment (so they SHOULD indeed be fit), did they all have to look so much like young fitness models who had just finished working out on the Nautilus equipment while in their strategically torn clothes? (.... and YES, where were all the "old guys" in Khan's ranks?)

There's at least two "old guys" in Khan's followers. The rest of them are, in my estimation, the children of Khan and his followers. I suspect Khan killed off most of his competition.

They were killed by the same creatures Khan put in Terrel and Chekov...as explained in the film.

Must Trek (often) portray other individuals in Star Fleet (other than our heroes) in such a weak, negative light in order to make our main characters look so much more heroic? The cadets seemed just awful in comparison to Khan's followers. If these cadets were the best of what the Federation's cultures had to offer, Scotty's nephew should definitely not have been the only one that stayed at his post. I know that these were "fresh recruits", but these guys ran away like daffy English Kaniggets from some Killer Rabbit. We should have seen more valor there.

I think Kirk said it best when he said it was a boatload of children that they were taking into a combat situation. You had several who failed in combat, but you had some who didn't. I think it was for the point of drama that you had more fail in the situation than succeeded.

They also hadn't planned on going into battle with an old foe with a grudge

'Course it has been a while since I saw the movie. Might not be quite as bad as I remember. Despite this complaint, I really do like TWOK.....

I think it would've been disappointing to Spock to see most of the cadets and trainees run and hide, but that's not explored in the context of the film.

They didn't expect to go into mortal combat. They were on a training cruise.

I love the "This is Ceti Alpha V!" line and delivery but treating beaming down to the wrong planet as if it were the same as getting lost on some back country dirt road is ridiculous. The movie has enough going for it that I still enjoy it, but this is as idiotic a moment as anything in Abrams' film or Nemesis.

It's one of those things in a film that makes no sense. I remember watching it at the Phipps Plaza in Atlanta and thinking that. However, it was a dramatic scene, and while scientifically implausible (but not impossible), this plot device is easily dismissed.

It is fiction. This oversight is no worse than any other scientific oversight in any other Trek production.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Regarding the Reliant crew mistaking Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI, Khan mentions that the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI shifted the orbit of V, presumably into what was the orbit of VI, but never tells us what happened to VI after it went boom. It's possible the debris, or at least most of it, reformed and settled into a reasonable facsimile of Ceti Alpha V's orbit, thus giving the initial impression that all planets in the Ceti Alpha system were present and accounted for.

Besides, they were specifically looking for lifeless planets, and since Ceti Alpha V was listed as anything but lifeless, it would automatically be ignored, so nobody noticed that what was a jungle planet was now a lump of molten lava.

 

[number6]

Regarding the Reliant crew mistaking Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI, Khan mentions that the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI shifted the orbit of V, presumably into what was the orbit of VI, but never tells us what happened to VI after it went boom. It's possible the debris, or at least most of it, reformed and settled into a reasonable facsimile of Ceti Alpha V's orbit, thus giving the initial impression that all planets in the Ceti Alpha system were present and accounted for.

Besides, they were specifically looking for lifeless planets, and since Ceti Alpha V was listed as anything but lifeless, it would automatically be ignored, so nobody noticed that what was a jungle planet was now a lump of molten lava.

This is as reasonable an explanation as any.

Now we can get back to the OP task of seeking Trek "Purity."

 

[Robert D. Robot]

ˆ ..... Wasn't that what Nomad/Tan Ru was out looking for? Trek "Purity"?

 

[Robert D. Robot]

Quote Potempkin_Prod: "There's at least two "old guys" in Khan's followers. The rest of them are, in my estimation, the children of Khan and his followers. I suspect Khan killed off most of his competition."

Quote warped9: "They were killed by the same creatures Khan put in Terrel and Chekov...as explained in the film."

-------------------------------------------

I do like the concept that Khan killed off his competition- that idea makes good sense.

I also do remember that the Ceti eels killed off a bunch of Khan's followers.... so much for the battle of "Superior Intellect" vs. worms. It's also fortunate (and curious/convenient) that the eels seemed to prefer attacking adults rather than vulnerable babes and children.

With all the talk of "look" and "feel" of Trek on this board (which is sometimes a bit vague in terms of specifics), it just struck me (and annoyed me) when watching TWOK how - in general- "Khan's Kids" seem to be portrayed as "hot", and the Cadets seem like "wimps".

Kirk called the cadets "a boatload of children" (Interesting... like how the Abramsprise was manned?). Kirk must have been REALLY feeling his age that day. We have many thousands of our "children" out on patrol in Afghanistan. Maybe Star Fleet should not be out in the Final Frontier if standards for service will have slipped so far by the 23rd century. Q was right (!)?

I appreciate the responses to what I have said. I just have always had a problem with this particular aspect of the movie.

 

[Silvercrest]

Many of Khan's people might have gone back to sleep. You know, on a rotating schedule, so that the entire crew isn't consuming resources at the same time. That would let most of them appear younger than they should by the time of TWOK. The ship did have cryo facilities, after all....

 

[Robert D. Robot]

^ Man! Good idea, here too!

 

[JimZipCode]

My first ever post on these boards: I just discovered them from reading the comments in the Star Trek reviews on the Onion AVClub. I consider myself a complete TOS purist. I have no use whatever for any of the later series with other characters.

However, I'll throw some animated series stuff in, too. I'll happily take Yesteryear as canon, and I think there were some other decent episodes. Also the John M Ford tie-in novel The Final Reflection (1984) ought to be canonical (it's too good to leave out).

Greetings, all.

 

[Noname Given]

Many of Khan's people might have gone back to sleep. You know, on a rotating schedule, so that the entire crew isn't consuming resources at the same time. That would let most of them appear younger than they should by the time of TWOK. The ship did have cryo facilities, after all....

Except, remember, in Space Seed; that ship was abandoned. They were living in Cargo Containers that Kirk 'dropped them off in' instead of turning Khan and his followers over to the Federation authorities. They had no real technology, as the last thing Kirk wanted was for them to get off of Ceti Alpha V. In fact, you COULD make the case that Kirk NEVER informed Starfleet of any of this (Khan commenting that 'Captain Kirk neverer bothered to check on out progress...'; most likely because he knew if he reported to Star Fleet Command:

"Kirk Reporting: I found the 20th century dictator and despot Khan Noonian Singh and 70 of his followers. They commandered my ship for a day or so; and nearly killed mmyself and my entire Bridge crew; but, instead of turning them over to Federation authorities; I marooned them on the planet Ceti Alpha V with enough suplies to make a go of a colony on that world. Nom, I didn't leave any warning for other ships, but hey. whatr's the chance another ship will drop by and contact them? It's not likely in my opinion. Kirk out"

I think HAD Star Fleet been informed, Kirk WOULD have been court martialed.

 

[Lieut. Arex]

Regarding the Reliant crew mistaking Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI, Khan mentions that the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI shifted the orbit of V, presumably into what was the orbit of VI, but never tells us what happened to VI after it went boom. It's possible the debris, or at least most of it, reformed and settled into a reasonable facsimile of Ceti Alpha V's orbit, thus giving the initial impression that all planets in the Ceti Alpha system were present and accounted for.

Besides, they were specifically looking for lifeless planets, and since Ceti Alpha V was listed as anything but lifeless, it would automatically be ignored, so nobody noticed that what was a jungle planet was now a lump of molten lava.

But V can't be mistaken for VI. The isotopic ratios of the elements making up the planets would be different. This is how we distinguish the sources of meteorites falling on Earth, determining ALH 84001 was from Mars, for example. Beach's scans wouldn't have ID'd the planet as Ceti Alpha VI, they would have ID'd a wrecked CA-V in the wrong place.

Also, while the scenario you suggest might happen, it wouldn't in a fifteen year time frame. It would take thousands of years for the orbit to circularize. That's too many astrophysical hoops for me to jump through. I understand dramatically why the plot was structured as it was, using a principle character to introduce and explain the major threat to the audience, but it's clumsy and scientifically implausible. It's another example of the incompetent Starfleet shown through all the films.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

But V can't be mistaken for VI. The isotopic ratios of the elements making up the planets would be different. This is how we distinguish the sources of meteorites falling on Earth, determining ALH 84001 was from Mars, for example. Beach's scans wouldn't have ID'd the planet as Ceti Alpha VI, they would have ID'd a wrecked CA-V in the wrong place.

Assuming they did a detailed enough scan. They weren't doing comprehensive mineralogical scans. They were scanning for life forms.

Also, while the scenario you suggest might happen, it wouldn't in a fifteen year time frame. It would take thousands of years for the orbit to circularize. That's too many astrophysical hoops for me to jump through. I understand dramatically why the plot was structured as it was, using a principle character to introduce and explain the major threat to the audience, but it's clumsy and scientifically implausible. It's another example of the incompetent Starfleet shown through all the films.

No, it isn't. For all we know, V and VI were very similar planets in terms of composition. Reliant found a lifeless (they thought) planet in approximately the right orbit that grossly matched what they had recorded for composition. They had no reason to scan for trace elements. They saw a planet in roughly the right place and went on with their mission to check for life forms.


You know, I just realized something. If V and VI had effectively "switched" orbital positions in terms relationship to the primary, that would explain why Checkov never said anything to Terrell about Khan to begin with. For all he knew, Khan died with Ceti Alpha V. It wasn't until he saw the belt buckle that he realized he'd made a terrible mistake.

 

[Warped9]

Regarding the Reliant crew mistaking Ceti Alpha V for Ceti Alpha VI, Khan mentions that the explosion of Ceti Alpha VI shifted the orbit of V, presumably into what was the orbit of VI, but never tells us what happened to VI after it went boom. It's possible the debris, or at least most of it, reformed and settled into a reasonable facsimile of Ceti Alpha V's orbit, thus giving the initial impression that all planets in the Ceti Alpha system were present and accounted for.

Besides, they were specifically looking for lifeless planets, and since Ceti Alpha V was listed as anything but lifeless, it would automatically be ignored, so nobody noticed that what was a jungle planet was now a lump of molten lava.

But V can't be mistaken for VI. The isotopic ratios of the elements making up the planets would be different. This is how we distinguish the sources of meteorites falling on Earth, determining ALH 84001 was from Mars, for example. Beach's scans wouldn't have ID'd the planet as Ceti Alpha VI, they would have ID'd a wrecked CA-V in the wrong place.

Also, while the scenario you suggest might happen, it wouldn't in a fifteen year time frame. It would take thousands of years for the orbit to circularize. That's too many astrophysical hoops for me to jump through. I understand dramatically why the plot was structured as it was, using a principle character to introduce and explain the major threat to the audience, but it's clumsy and scientifically implausible. It's another example of the incompetent Starfleet shown through all the films.

Yes.

How many times have we heard Spock report, "Planet class ___, composition____, age approximately yadda, yadda, yadda..." when approaching a new world? Hell, in "Return To Tomorrow" Spock was able to tell that Arret's atmosphere had been ripped away thousands of years prior.

 

[Ronald Held]

The planets orbits would be not expected to change that radially in only a few decades, if VI exploded and the debris stayed in the same orbit as a ring or arcs.
Khan could have killed off some of the adults,and some could have died due to the harsh conditions.

 

[Warped9]

According to Kirk's statement "a man I haven't seen for fifteen years" then any children of Khan's followers couldn't be more than fifteen years old. The followers in TWOK looked older than fifteen. And even if some of the supermen had been in their late teens to early twenties when they were marooned then they'd still be full adults fifteen years later.

 

[Red Ranger]

I just have to add that TOS Purists are, as Judd Nelson said in The Breakfast Club about math geeks, "demented and sad."

 

[number6]

I just have to add that TOS Purists are, as Judd Nelson said in The Breakfast Club about math geeks, "demented and sad."

This.

 

[Warped9]

I just have to add that TOS Purists are, as Judd Nelson said in The Breakfast Club about math geeks, "demented and sad."

This.

Then I embrace my dementedness rather than be someone who has accepted anything TPTB have offered since, most particularly the last two series and five films.

 

[Red Ranger]

I just have to add that TOS Purists are, as Judd Nelson said in The Breakfast Club about math geeks, "demented and sad."

This.

Then I embrace my dementedness rather than be someone who has accepted anything TPTB have offered since, most particularly the last two series and five films.

You can embrace it, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans to TPTB.

 

[Robert D. Robot]

The Grissom's goal was to find a planet suitable for the Genesis Project by eliminating planets from consideration that had life present on them. Life is going to be present (or absent) due to several overlapping factors including the geology, chemistry, and climatology of a planet- they wouldn't only be scanning for something as obvious as DNA or something with a pulse, etc.

A scientific survey searching for for life would need to include the investigation of these other non-biological factors that would have an influence on the potential presence of life--- otherwise this ship's scientists would be as bad at their jobs as all the other non-Enterprise members of Starfleet that we've seen in the movies.

Grissom's crew should definitely have been able to have recognized that a planet had exploded and that things were different in the Ceti Alpha system.

This particular plot hole has a maw big enough to swallow a dozen starships...

 

[Warped9]

This.

Then I embrace my dementedness rather than be someone who has accepted anything TPTB have offered since, most particularly the last two series and five films.

You can embrace it, but it doesn't mean a hill of beans to TPTB.

Oh, excuse me. You might have mistaken me with someone who gave a shit.