yea, I thought Enterprise was fine. TATV was ok, interesting w/ TNG characters on it, but really not needed. Let Enterprise go out on their own terms, not hallogramed, that sucked I thought.
TATV sux!!11!!! vol.47 - the Jonathan Frakes edition
- Thread starter Mach5
- Start date
I think all actors constantly weigh money vs. acting a beloved character. Both Frakes and Nimoy can be picky about which roles they choose, so I doubt Frakes was only in it for the money. He probably has a soft spot in his heart for Riker and wanted the chance to act with Marina Sirtis again. Nimoy has a well-known love/hate relationship with Shatner and some of the cast of TOS. It probably isn't as important to him to take on the ears to act with old friends. And Nimoy himself has a love/hate/love relationship with Spock. I think as an actor that's probably hampered him from doing more ... which is a shame because he's a hell of an actor. I also think he realizes that Spock is a character that isn't just a science fiction character, but has entered the psyche of now three or four generations. Spock will live on (and prosper) as one of the greatest fictional characters of all times, right along with Darth Vader (not Anakin), Sherlock Holmes, etc.
From purely a script POV, I thought STXI/STI (the do over) was very, very weak. That's probably for a whole 'nuther thread.
At any rate, I agree that Frakes believes it's rough for a cast to have someone else finish up the season for them. But as discussed before, this wasn't just Enterprise's last show ... it was Star Trek's until JJ Abrams showed up and decided to take up the mantle. I think having it as Enterprise's last show and Star Trek's simultaneously was too bad.
For the record, here's what I thought worked for TATV:
* Trip's death from a dramatic sense
* The de-comissioning of Enterprise
* Riker and Troi show up again (and I really didn't like Troi from TNG)
* Riker's "playing" Chef
* Ending with the beginning of the Federation
What didn't work:
* Weird species we hadn't heard of killing Trip
* Trinneer's acting of Trip before getting killed
* Shran becoming a gem thief instead of using it to explain some TOS mythos (like dilithium crystals)
* T'Pol was all over the board
I feel sorry for the Enterprise cast that they didn't get their swan song and that we have the terrible Demons and barely watchable Terra Prime (minus the 5 mins toward the end) as well as TATV to end on. It would've been more fun for all involved if the last episode was 1) Enterprise ending with a 2) 1-hour special on Star Trek. I think it's Moonves madness that he didn't approve something to say goodbye to Star Trek. Like it'd be fun to interview the actors, but even seeing them in character through the generations involved in the Federation would be fun.
I also like Number 6's answer.
I don't get the Frakes hate in here. It's not like he's some no-account loser just showing up to ruin the show: he's way more a part of Star Trek than any of us, and probably has pretty strong feelings about it as an actor and director. He's been in the business for what, thirty years?, and is still getting plenty of directing work. Seems quite happy about it, too. I can't comprehend why someone would "hold it against him" for taking an acting job. It's not like he bought the network and then demanded that the producers cast his nephew as a Gary Stu who constantly one-ups the stars, or something like that. He just showed up to do his job, on an episode that I'm sure even his harshest critics will agree had far more working against it than his performance.
No I agree, Frakes has talent and has shown it. Marina Sirtis on the other hand...
I respect your right to your opinion...but surely you must realize that Star Trek 09 was loved by critics and many fans??? Likewise, Demons and Terra Prime are generally very well regarded by fans. TATV on the other hand is not...
Also...Trineer's acting in TATV was fine...however his poorly written death scenes are in no way dramatic...just totally unnecessary (and the events are completely unbelievable).
Yep. The only real weakness of ST09 were plot holes, something that every Trek movie or TV show suffers from. The cast, the acting and the dialogue exceeded my expectations by a mile. Not to mention production design and SFX...
And not only because of the plot, but because of drama. Blalock, Trinneer, Bilingsley and even Bakula gave us some really beautiful, powerful moments in Deamons/Terra Prime, while in TATV, their body language made them look like they were thinking "Oh, lets just get this over with already."
Just take the Archer/T'Pol scene in Trip's quarters for example... Bakula looked so uncomfortable in that scene... Almost as if he was embarrassed for having to say those godawful lines...
To tell the truth, the only actor who did okay in TATV was Frakes. He seemed relaxed and charming (as expected from Will Riker), but he felt sooo out of place. His seasoned look completely disabled me from suspending disbelief - he simply could not pass for a TNG season 7 Riker. Same with Sirtis (even more so, actually)...
Still, the idea of never again seeing Will Riker on screen saddens me... Can't say the same for Troi, though...
What Mach5 said...
and this:
I think that Sim's death (and conseqent funeral) was a far, far better than what the writers did to Trip in TaTV. There was no meaning in the scene just before he dies where there could have been some real potential for gut-wrenching heart break. No proper grief from ANYONE. 10 years this crew is supposed to have been together, they lose their chief engineer and grieving his death amounts to a short scene of platitudes with no real emotion?
No. His death wasn't well done at all, IMO.
I know that they were sending off Star Trek (and at the time we had no hope that there would be any kind of new trek)... but in trying to send off all of Trek with ENT's finale they completely belittled ENT, the actors, the (good) writers, the staff who put their blood sweat and tears into this show. Oh and let's not forget the fans who stuck by the series even during the less than stellar times.
As for Frakes. It's a job. I can't begrudge the guy for doing his job. He acted well, though like Mach5 I didn't find it believable at ALL that he could have been Riker from season 7 TNG.
and this:
I think that Sim's death (and conseqent funeral) was a far, far better than what the writers did to Trip in TaTV. There was no meaning in the scene just before he dies where there could have been some real potential for gut-wrenching heart break. No proper grief from ANYONE. 10 years this crew is supposed to have been together, they lose their chief engineer and grieving his death amounts to a short scene of platitudes with no real emotion?
No. His death wasn't well done at all, IMO.
I know that they were sending off Star Trek (and at the time we had no hope that there would be any kind of new trek)... but in trying to send off all of Trek with ENT's finale they completely belittled ENT, the actors, the (good) writers, the staff who put their blood sweat and tears into this show. Oh and let's not forget the fans who stuck by the series even during the less than stellar times.
As for Frakes. It's a job. I can't begrudge the guy for doing his job. He acted well, though like Mach5 I didn't find it believable at ALL that he could have been Riker from season 7 TNG.
Yeah, that was pretty fucked up. They simply should have done this on the Titan or Enterprise-E.
Have their been "official" opinions published by the writers/producers?
maybe at a convention etc.?
maybe at a convention etc.?
Brannon Braga sort of apologized (admitted that TATV was crap), while Rick Berman basically told us to go fuck ourselves IIRC...
Really, I'd like to see that quote.
How about this?
Usually, when someone calls my opinion "nonsense," I get a little offended...Dick Berman said:
How about this?
Usually, when someone calls my opinion "nonsense," I get a little offended...Dick Berman said:
Oh dude, don't take things so personal.
I also don't think it was a TNG episode. Relics wasn't a TOS episode just because of a cameo and re-used sets.
It wouldn't have taken much to turn TATV around.
It could have been halfway decent.
By the way, I love the quote that it took "a lot of time" to come up with the concept for the finale, since the main criticism of the episode is that it seemed very hastily pieced together. LOL.
Anyway, I still enjoy TATV because the relaunched novels fixed the main problem.
The with Trip means something. It's the saving grace of the whole episode.
It could have been halfway decent.
By the way, I love the quote that it took "a lot of time" to come up with the concept for the finale, since the main criticism of the episode is that it seemed very hastily pieced together. LOL.
Anyway, I still enjoy TATV because the relaunched novels fixed the main problem.
The
with Trip means something. It's the saving grace of the whole episode.
How about this?
Usually, when someone calls my opinion "nonsense," I get a little offended...Dick Berman said:
Oh dude, don't take things so personal.
I also don't think it was a TNG episode. Relics wasn't a TOS episode just because of a cameo and re-used sets.
Um, Relics didn't take place on the 1701 Enterprise from TOS; or in the 23rd century.
TATV TOOK PLACE on the 1701-D (various locations and on the holodeck); and for the entire episode 9as set up by the story); the only REAL characters involved were Riker and Troi.
^^^^^^^^^
Ergo - It was DEFINITELY and ONLY a TNG episode. (IMO)
^ Praise Jesus!
The ENTIRE episode takes place on Enterprise D in the 24th century, with Riker and Troi being the only TWO flesh and blood characters in it (not counting the Ten Forward extras)...
Yeah, shame on me for suggesting such nonsense...
BTW, I'm not taking that shit personally...
The ENTIRE episode takes place on Enterprise D in the 24th century, with Riker and Troi being the only TWO flesh and blood characters in it (not counting the Ten Forward extras)...
Yeah, shame on me for suggesting such nonsense...
BTW, I'm not taking that shit personally...
As already said, Relics didn't take place in the 23rd century.
Also, Relics focused on both Scotty and the TNG characters. It was as much an episode about the TNG characters, and LaForge in particular, as it was about Scotty.
TATV, however, is all about Riker. The ENT characters are only in it to service the story about Riker finding the courage to do the right thing and tell Picard about the Pegasus.
God I love it when people take shit literally (and by "shit," I mean stuff or things, not excrement... Oh, and just in case, by "things" and "stuff" I don't mean material objects but written thoughts)...