Is the Star Wars saga better with Episodes I to III or worse?

[JarodRussell]

The rebels were being hunted down by the Empire. They regularly moved from one hideout to the next. The Falcon needed extensive repairs in TESB, which suggests that she had been in a lot of trouble. Han simply didn't have the time to deal with Jabba.

 

[Alidar Jarok]

Why shouldn't droids have been fighters in the first place?

Apart from being wretchedly boring, they're obviously too advanced to precede the OT. (And please, don't say "we only saw backwaters in the OT, therefore showing obviously more advanced tech before makes it okay"... because it doesn't.)

There were droids everywhere in the original trilogy. Sure, they didn't fight, but it's far too expensive to maintain an army to oppress a population that you have to manufacture (which is why they aren't clones either, but recruits).

As far as faceless qualities go, are there substantial differences between clones and droids?

There's all the difference in the world: one group is alive and the other isn't. There can be no anguish, satisfaction or any other trace of emotion in destroying droids... Lucas effectively sanitized a huge aspect of war in order to avoid having the Jedi cut up living beings with their sabers.

And the necessary problem with that is...

The fact that we have the Jedi show that there were good individuals vs. droids.

Uh, yeah... I happened to notice that a few years ago. Your point?

You said it would be OK if there were good individuals vs. clones. I pointed out how, substantively, this isn't much different.

I think you need to develop your arguments a bit better on why this particular creative decision is a bad one.

Well, it is partly subjective. If you can't already see why battle droids were a terrible artistic blunder in the first place, I may not be able to help you.

Eh, I don't think you're thinking it through with this one. You're reacting emotionally to the fact that the movies were lackluster and then nitpicking points that don't logically connect and then claiming those were the reasons they were bad. I see your point, but I don't see where that point leads to "and therefore, the movies had to have been bad." I would have said that the plot wasn't that well-written as my complaint, but "they had droids and therefore the movies had to have been bad" doesn't follow for me.

 

[Gaith]

There were droids everywhere in the original trilogy.

Yeah... awkward, lumbering, often silly droids. None were anywhere near as mobile as the battle droids. But it's an aesthetic call more than anything.

You're reacting emotionally to the fact that the movies were lackluster and then nitpicking points that don't logically connect and then claiming those were the reasons they were bad.

You totally ignored the part where I pointed out the real and substantive difference between droids and clones:

There's all the difference in the world: one group is alive and the other isn't. There can be no anguish, satisfaction or any other trace of emotion in destroying droids.

...

I would have said that the plot wasn't that well-written as my complaint, but "they had droids and therefore the movies had to have been bad" doesn't follow for me.

Well, I don't believe I ever quite said that, but we can split the difference if you like. They were bad movies, and the battle droids made them worse. Happy?

 

[Alidar Jarok]

I think exodus addressed your point fairly well. If droids didn't act like people, I would agree. But, to be honest, some droids you get emotional attachments to and some people (the clones) I really don't. So, in the end, it really comes down to a name for me.

 

[Gaith]

... And we thus agree to disagree on emotional/subjective grounds. Good enough for me.

(And yes, I developed emotional attachments to 3PO and Artoo too, but they had to earn it through character development and screen time, whereas any sentient being, even a clone, gets much more inherent interest from me than any given droid. Besides, there was no reason why the Clone Wars needed to feature only one cloned individual; the Thrawn trilogy's mini-Clone Wars features several different crops, per the individuals' various skills.)

 

[Myasishchev]

(And it never helped that the droids were less threatening as killer robots than Crow T.)

 

[Set Harth]

But Obi also calls him "a good man" and "a good friend" (quite wistfully too). And that just doesn't square with the relationship we see in the prequels at all.

More useless hyperbole. His having been a "good man" is independent of his relationship with Obi-Wan. It was demonstrated by his acts of heroism in the PT and was set up by TPM ( much to the chagrin of those who wanted to see the "bad seed" demon kid ). Calling him a "good man" indicates what side he was on, not some fantasy of perfection or likability; it was said in the context of describing his fall to the dark side. And they were depicted as friends.

Even with the forced reparte in AOTC and ROTS, he still seems more irritated and annoyed with Anakin (and justifiably so) than anything else.

He's not allowed to be annoyed with a friend?

preferring vague assertions about immortality in the future instead of actively and accurately describing Jedi immorality

Why assume that Palpatine knows anything at all about "Jedi immortality"?

These sources of "great anger" are never interwoven into Anakin's campaign against the Jedi, though. Palpatine never uses these to poison him against the Jedi

That is false. Palpatine does indeed use the situation with his wife ( and by extension his mother ) to poison him against the Jedi; that's his whole ploy. Anakin's issues regarding the loss of his mother and the potential loss of his wife ( stolen from Flint in the Marvel comics! ) are the basis for his interest in Sith powers. To say that Palpatine "never" uses these issues - that they are "never" interwoven - is completely absurd. Furthermore, it is hinted ( and made explicit in an early script ) that Shmi's death may have been orchestrated.

 

[exodus]

There's all the difference in the world: one group is alive and the other isn't. There can be no anguish, satisfaction or any other trace of emotion in destroying droids... Lucas effectively sanitized a huge aspect of war in order to avoid having the Jedi cut up living beings with their sabers.

Which would have given Star Wars a more adult rating, thus limiting the turn out of children which has always been a main staple of the Star Wars audience.

As far as emotion over destroying droids, how many of us that watched Star Wars when we were young were emotionally upset at seeing R2 & 3PO shot or destroyed?
I know I myself was satisfied at seeing someone destroy a Droideka.

Hey, it's possible to employ robots as warriors and make it interesting or suspenseful. I think Hardware did a good job of that, as did Judge Dredd.

The problem with the prequels is that the droids are pathetically inefficient, Keystone-cop forces, that never once remotely create a sense of jeopardy for anyone. In the OT, stormtroopers occasionally win. The droids are just a joke.

The stormtroopers in A New Hope wipe out Leia's crew, they wipe out the Jawas, they kill Luke's aunt and uncle, they destroy the entire rebel attack force except for a couple of ships. They somehow do this without getting an R rating. The droids run around, say "Roger roger" and bump into each other before getting destroyed en masse.

That was the point.
The Droids were a threat not because of their intelligence but due to their sheer numbers. You can probably produce Droids faster and cheaper than Clones. However, Clones were better because they were tactically smarter. You saw on Naboo that besides the Gungans, nobody had an army. So even Droids could over run a city. Most of the planets in the galaxy had no real army because there was barely any threat of war, even the Wookies didn't have the numbers of warriors to fight off the Droids. The Jedi kept order. So the galaxy was ripe for any army, even Droids to take over. Nobody had the means to defend their planets until the Clone army was created.

 

[exodus]

... And we thus agree to disagree on emotional/subjective grounds. Good enough for me.

(And yes, I developed emotional attachments to 3PO and Artoo too, but they had to earn it through character development and screen time, whereas any sentient being, even a clone, gets much more inherent interest from me than any given droid. Besides, there was no reason why the Clone Wars needed to feature only one cloned individual; the Thrawn trilogy's mini-Clone Wars features several different crops, per the individuals' various skills.)

Because by Thrawn's time they weren't just Clones anymore.
The Empire had taken over and recruited people from all the planets they took over and sent them to the Empiral Academy to train to be Stormtroopers. This is why their title when from Clone Troopers to Stormtroopers.

I recall people whispering "Oh no!" in the theaters when R2 got shot by the Jawas, 20 mins into the film.
Darth Vader made a serious impact on all who saw him just walking out of the smoke and onto the Blockade Runner. What character developement was there in 20 mins of the film, yet folks still had an emotional reaction.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

... And we thus agree to disagree on emotional/subjective grounds. Good enough for me.

(And yes, I developed emotional attachments to 3PO and Artoo too, but they had to earn it through character development and screen time, whereas any sentient being, even a clone, gets much more inherent interest from me than any given droid. Besides, there was no reason why the Clone Wars needed to feature only one cloned individual; the Thrawn trilogy's mini-Clone Wars features several different crops, per the individuals' various skills.)

Because by Thrawn's time they weren't just Clones anymore.
The Empire had taken over and recruited people from all the planets they took over and sent them to the Empiral Academy to train to be Stormtroopers. This is why their title when from Clone Troopers to Stormtroopers.

I recall people whispering "Oh no!" in the theaters when R2 got shot by the Jawas, 20 mins into the film.
Darth Vader made a serious impact on all who saw him just walking out of the smoke and onto the Blockade Runner. What character developement was there in 20 mins of the film, yet folks still had an emotional reaction.

The droids have had the lion's share of the screen time at that point, and R2's depiction is extremely manipulative emotionally - he makes cute little "talking" noises like a baby, he shows "pluck", he shakes when he's "scared" - there's a lot invested in R2 as a character right up front.

Think of it this way: the droid Luke's uncle first tries to buy pops its lid and expires [thus saving the galaxy - that droid is the biggest hero in the story other than Luke]. Do you feel anything when you see that happen? I only felt relief. "Oh great now he'll buy R2 instead! Whew, that was close!"

 

[exodus]

... And we thus agree to disagree on emotional/subjective grounds. Good enough for me.

(And yes, I developed emotional attachments to 3PO and Artoo too, but they had to earn it through character development and screen time, whereas any sentient being, even a clone, gets much more inherent interest from me than any given droid. Besides, there was no reason why the Clone Wars needed to feature only one cloned individual; the Thrawn trilogy's mini-Clone Wars features several different crops, per the individuals' various skills.)

Because by Thrawn's time they weren't just Clones anymore.
The Empire had taken over and recruited people from all the planets they took over and sent them to the Empiral Academy to train to be Stormtroopers. This is why their title when from Clone Troopers to Stormtroopers.

I recall people whispering "Oh no!" in the theaters when R2 got shot by the Jawas, 20 mins into the film.
Darth Vader made a serious impact on all who saw him just walking out of the smoke and onto the Blockade Runner. What character developement was there in 20 mins of the film, yet folks still had an emotional reaction.

The droids have had the lion's share of the screen time at that point, and R2's depiction is extremely manipulative emotionally - he makes cute little "talking" noises like a baby, he shows "pluck", he shakes when he's "scared" - there's a lot invested in R2 as a character right up front.

Think of it this way: the droid Luke's uncle first tries to buy pops its lid and expires [thus saving the galaxy - that droid is the biggest hero in the story other than Luke]. Do you feel anything when you see that happen? I only felt relief. "Oh great now he'll buy R2 instead! Whew, that was close!"

I was 7 years old, sure I felt saddened that R5-D4 busted a gasket. Too a 7 year old, anything be it Droid or cartoon is seen as real & alive.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

I was 7 years old, sure I felt saddened that R5-D4 busted a gasket. Too a 7 year old, anything be it Droid or cartoon is seen as real & alive.

Was R5-D4 its name?

I think instead of a prequel next time they should do a story where R5-D4 keeps his (blank) together and doesn't blow a gasket right at that moment.

Where does it go from there?

The Empire recovers R2D2 when the stormtroopers find the Jawas.

Luke does not meet Kenobi - at least not then.

Leia is executed on the Death Star.

The Death Star destroys the rebel base and then flies around messing stuff up. [I imagine the rebels would abandon that base instead of standing and fighting, since they don't have access to the plans.]

Then what?

 

[exodus]

Was R5-D4 its name?

I'm guessing you've never collected the toys, trading cards, magazines, comic books, heard the radio broadcast stories....


EVERY creature, Alien & Droid in the Star Wars Universe has an official name.

 

[A beaker full of death]

And Dooku, his introduction is built up in episode 2, appearing only in the last, what 40 minutes? Then he
's offed in the first 20 minutes of Episode 3, because Grievous was more marketable. WHO IS GRIEVOUS? If you only watched the movies, you'd have no idea.

I did only see them - and only once each. And I have no idea who most of these people are or what the hell was going on. Grievous (really? "Grievous"?) was that robot baddie with the cape we saw for two minutes, right?

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Well, this poll isn't close.

 

[JarodRussell]

General Grievous, finally a potential badass droid. Until he started to cough.

And then that 4 lightsaber over the top crapfest. Oh dear...

 

[davejames]

General Grievous, finally a potential badass droid. Until he started to cough.

And then that 4 lightsaber over the top crapfest. Oh dear...

The idea of a robot general was a good one, but I never found Grevious remotely threatening. The design was overly complex, and yeah, the coughing thing was just ridiculous.

Why they didn't keep Darth Maul around, I'll never know. He was a brilliant creation, and was menacing and badass as hell. He could have easily become an ICONIC movie villain-- almost to the level of Vader-- if he had just been used propertly (and of course if the stories were better than what we got).

I think Lucas just didn't realize what he really had there.

 

[exodus]

General Grievous, finally a potential badass droid. Until he started to cough.

And then that 4 lightsaber over the top crapfest. Oh dear...

The idea of a robot general was a good one, but I never found Grevious remotely threatening. The design was overly complex, and yeah, the coughing thing was just ridiculous.

Why they didn't keep Darth Maul around, I'll never know. He was a brilliant creation, and was menacing and badass as hell. He could have easily become an ICONIC movie villain-- almost to the level of Vader-- if he had just been used propertly (and of course if the stories were better than what we got).

I think Lucas just didn't realize what he really had there.

Maybe not, Lucas does seem to underplay some of the more cooler "alien" characters.
However thanks to the Clone Wars cartoon, I'm actually growing to like Grevious allot. They're fleshing (ha-ha) him out more there, so I'm starting to understand why he's a threat.

 

[sonak]

WORSE WORSE WORSE!!!!!!!



Sorry, but I have strong feelings on this. The prequels TRASHED much of the backstory of Episodes IV-VI.

1. Anakin wasn't a good man corrupted and enslaved by the dark side. He was an arrogant, whiny, selfish, stupid jerk from the beginning of Episode II. I never saw him as sympathetic.

2. Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't good friends in the past, they constantly bickered and fought, and seemed to barely tolerate one another.

3. The entire story of the Republic's fall and Palpatine's seizure of power is one giant ludicrous "idiot plot" that makes the Jedi out to be incompetent morons.

4. Luke and Leia's mom dies of a "broken heart?" Really? REALLY?

5. The Jedi's portrayal as celibate monks who brainwash toddlers irritated me.



I would however, LOVE to see rebooted prequels done right by a writer or writers who loved the original trilogy and can get Episodes I-III done right.

 

[davejames]

1. Anakin wasn't a good man corrupted and enslaved by the dark side. He was an arrogant, whiny, selfish, stupid jerk from the beginning of Episode II. I never saw him as sympathetic.

Don't forget "creepy and stalkerish".

2. Anakin and Obi-Wan weren't good friends in the past, they constantly bickered and fought, and seemed to barely tolerate one another.

Agreed. I know Lucas was trying to create a fun little dynamic there, but in the end it came across like Obi-Wan was just a teacher putting up with a really immature and annoying student.