Worldbuilding: New member integration in the UFP

[Penta]

Cepstrum: Good questions. I'll try for answers.

1. The way I see it, the Ferengi (for example) aren't going to range over the entirety of even the Alpha Quadrant. There's a reason, after all, that first contact wasn't made with them until TNG, in-universe. Basically, besides the UFP, I only see the Klingons and the Romulans as having both the interest and the expanse of territory needed to really be issues for first contact outside of a certain local area. Even they aren't as assiduous about it as the Feds though, because of internal issues (in the Klingon case) and their own xenophobia/isolationism (in the Romulan case). The Cardassians are poor enough that, even prior to the Dominion War, they probably were not exactly threats; The Ferengi are likely to let the Federation do the hard work of making First Contact on behalf of the galaxy, for their part, really only acting as you suggest within a very limited local area (where I'd believe that, after the Pakled, the UFP is somewhat insistent to the Ferengi about keeping off the pre-warp folks; I just don't see a repeat of that situation being good for anybody, y'know?). The point is that making first contact, even if you don't observe the strictures of something like the PD, takes real resources. In part, I'd imagine something like the PD actually helps limit the resources issue - Before a certain pre-warp point, you ignore a planet except for an occasional flyby and passive monitoring, as far as Starfleet resources go; after all, for all you know the civilizations on the planet could all be eliminated by a disease, environmental catastrophe, evolution, whatever. After a certain point, but before warp travel is achieved, you step up the monitoring. They're likely to stick around, and presuming they don't eliminate themselves through global war or the like (or something unexpected happens like an asteroid strike), eventually they'll probably get FTL travel. As that point gets closer, you increase the monitoring, trying hard for them not to notice you or suspect your presence/visiting. You also focus most of your "hands off the pre-warpers" resources here - really, doesn't require much, as by the 2380s it's likely that anybody left who doesn't have warp travel is in probably isolated areas that aren't of strategic importance. After FTL travel is achieved, PD protection goes away, and part of the reason there's a scramble on the UFP's part to make FC ASAP after that is in the (UFP-perceived) interest of the locals as much as the UFP - to negotiate something allowing the locals to not get run over by the Klingons, the Romulans, the Ferengi, unscrupulous Feddies, etc., where they assent to Starfleet providing protection, both giving them time to wrap their heads around the situation they just flung themselves into, and giving the UFP the grounds on which to go "Grr, no trying to take them over/fleece them blind!" to all the other powers. I wouldn't call it a protectorate status, as it's much looser than that implies, though.

2. I think Cochrane's "guy in the woods develops FTL space engine" thing seen in FC makes no sense at all, but I do not put it as impossible or even totally unlikely that a sufficiently wealthy nation (or, more likely, alliance of nations), using national/multinational research organizations and infrastructure, could do it. I think that the closer you are to a single world government, the less motivation you would usually have to invest in a FTL space engine, because a single world government (or close to it) takes a horde of resources anyway (as does an FTL engine), and you don't have the same thing with national prestige as a motivator for funding. (Because there's a chicken-and-egg problem with for-profit anybody going for FTL...Unless you are abundantly certain you'll profit immensely from it, why would you spend nearly the massive amount of resources/money it'd take? (We'll just set the whole issue of the Ferengi aside for right now, please? They make my head hurt when I think about it.))

So, I'd say there's an even-money shot that the civilization breaking the "warp barrier" has a single world government as not.

 

[T'Girl]

but I think the whole idea of Cochrane developing a warp drive in the woods with little help is a little far-fetched.

The argument could be made that Cochrane was only performing final assembly and launch in that silo, possible for security reasons and that research, development and production of the Phoenix and the warp drive was actual carried out in the central area of the nearby (former?) Air Force base.

Data said Cochrane's launch site was "a missile complex in central Montana." That pretty much makes it Malmstrom Air Force Base, near Great Falls, Montana. The current 341st missile wing has a fairly large central base and about 200 outlaying missile silos spread over some 23,000 square miles. Currently those silos hold Minutemen Three missiles. The lower section of the missile in the movie looks like a Minuteman Three. So while it might look like Cochrane and his crew were in the middle of nowhere, likely instead they were merely at the end a access road a few dozen miles from the central base.

The star is the base, the big dots are comand centers and the spider web of access roads lead to individual missile silos.

One of which is Cochrane's.

http://a.imageshack.us/img820/5016/mal2.gif

But how likely is it, do you think, for a planet to be able to develop FTL without cooperation from the entire planet?

Not really that hard to believe that a single nation could produce a warp ship, provided it independently possessed the necessary resources (brains and materials).

Does Starfleet militantly guard pre-warp civilizations?

If they first know about them, then sure, that might be a portion of Starfleet's mandate. This next is from a past thread;

.
KIRK: General Order 7, no vessel under any condition, emergency or otherwise, is to visit Talos Four.

MENDEZ: And to do so is the only death penalty left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why. Not even this file explains that.
.

.
But if we monkey with the language a little bit, we get this;

KIRK: General Order 7 -- No vessel under any condition (emergency or otherwise) is to visit any planet on the proscribed list (which include Talos Four), unless the prohibition is suspended.

MENDEZ: General orders are the only death penalties left on our books. Only Fleet Command knows why Talos Four is on the proscribed list, not even this file explains that.

The threat of the death penalty may be what keeps ships (civilian and otherwise) away from all planets protected by the prime directive. The prime directive is a general order. In order to keep ships away from Talos Four, it was added to the list. Talos Four (it would seem) lacked FTL ships, so adding it to the proscribed list would have been legal under the prime directive. Commodore Mendez's statement was that there was no explanation as to why it was on the list. Suggesting the reason that other planets are on the proscribed list is explained.]

The death penalty might be the maximum possible penalty. With a lesser penalty being the standard, in America some States have the death penalty, but it's rarely used.
.

Again, from a different thread, however if the Federation applies and enforces their General Orders to all planets on their proscribed list, with varying degrees of punishment (including but rarely death), that might keep even the Ferengi away. "Primitive" worlds would have sensors and beacons placedin their star systems that would call Starfleet about an incursion, who would then sent the nearest ship. Something small like a corvette or a destroyer would usually do the job.

does the UFP only assume responsibility for making FC for planets within its own territory?

This would make sense.

 

[neozeks]

1. What's stopping less scrupulous species (such as the Ferengi) from bypassing the UFP and making First Contact whenever they want to (say, to exploit planets)? Does Starfleet militantly guard pre-warp civilizations? I'd think that would require more ships than even the huge Starfleet possesses. Or does the UFP only assume responsibility for making FC for planets within its own territory? Obviously it can't go all over the galaxy doing this. So does it restrict making FC to planets within its borders?

Pre-warp planets within it's borders, without a doubt (though that may include warding of pesky civilians, including Federates, more than anything). As for thouse outside, I'd say it tries to protect those that are nearby, in it's own 'sphere of influence' so to say. Of course, as you point out, resources are limited so sometimes it'll have to pick and choose (based on factors such as the pre-warp civ's need for protection and the Federation's own interests) and sometimes to provide protection only on a semi-regular basis. But it's also possible Starfleet personnel have a standing order to try to prevent foreign meddling in all the cases they come across, wherever they may be.

The argument could be made that Cochrane was only performing final assembly and launch in that silo, possible for security reasons and that research, development and production of the Phoenix and the warp drive was actual carried out in the central area of the nearby (former?) Air Force base.

Yeah, that's the rationalization I always use. For all we know, most of the work was done before WW3 and then the war devastated everything leaving only Cochrane and a bunch of his associates to improvise the final touches.

 

[Sci]

Penta, I'm usually on the same page as you (even if I quibble at details here or there), but I have some fundamental disagreements with some of the ideas you're presenting here.

[They may think they're ready. You may think, for a minute, they're ready. Truth is, no species is ever truly ready to find out they aren't alone in the cosmos, and it's doubtful any ever would be.]

The problem with this notion is that real history defies it. The world's cultures spent most of history coming into contact with strange and alien cultures whose common humanity they did not immediately recognize. The cultures that exist today are the descendants of cultures that were routinely making first contact with cultures that they considered the equivalent to what we would call extraterrestrial today.

And guess what? It didn't shatter any society to come into contact with cultures it believed to be non-human or otherworldly.

10. Limit how much they have to take in: Don't use a transporter, use a shuttlecraft if you can, to transport personnel. Don't use a replicator when you can cook real food. In short: When dealing with the target species, limit to the best extent possible how much they have to get used to (at one time) beyond the facts of "there are other species out there" and "those species have FTL travel too". That's plenty to get used to. [I fully imagine that, where the UFP intends to make the first move, they deploy ships that are capable of everything modern operations require, but that can also, for example, not use replicators (and not suggest the existence of same). This helps limit the shock the utterly bewildered locals have to experience, and lets the Federation personnel "ease them in" to the idea of higher technology over timeframes longer than a First Contact.]

I really don't think this is an issue at all. A species that has developed warp technology is going to have already speculated about the possible existence of aliens, and they're inevitably going to have developed the idea that many different technologies far in advance of their own may exist. The only real threshold is finding out with certainty that aliens exist; everything else is just a matter of degree.

Okay, still going.
2. Not creating a cargo cult: Religion is okay. Most societies in the UFP have a majority or at least a sizable minority who still hold to religious beliefs and practice. Cargo cults, though (defined imprecisely for our purposes as "Worshiping people who are not deities, know they aren't deities, and are not necessarily trying to be or impersonate deities"),

That's not necessarily an accurate definition of a cargo cult, though. Most cargo cults in 20th Century Pacific island cultures emerged because they believed that the "cargo" (an English translation of a term referring to the advanced technology of the industrial societies) was granted to American and Japanese cultures because they had been blessed by gods or ancestors, and that thus by imitating the actions of American and Japanese soldiers -- copying their morning drills, for instance, or building imitation airfields -- they would be pleasing the gods and thus gain the blessings that had been given to the industrial cultures. In other words, they didn't worship the industrial cultures, but instead believed that the industrial cultures' behaviors were forms of worship of the islanders' gods.

And while there will always be a small minority of nutjobs, it seems highly improbable to me that a society that's already reached industrialization, and then presumably nuclear technology, would contextualize extraterrestrial life as divine.

5. As the planet is readier (ie, so nobody freaks out or gets suckered by the Ferengi), contact with the galaxy is slowly expanded with Federation help.<SNIP>

During this time, the planet is (sometimes officially, but just as often implicitly and unofficially) a Federation protectorate - it has total control "internally", over its own species, own governments, own societies, but looks to the Federation for everything to do with spaceborne defense (it's the rare planet without FTL that has a space defense force), interstellar relations, and generally everything else to do with the wider galaxy. They can pull out of this relationship at any time, but it basically never happens at this point - the planet is too dependent on Federation help, and knows it.

Pardon me, but at what point does that cease to be about helping an interstellarly inexperienced culture and become a matter of neo-imperialism? Does the Federation also force them to privatize state industries if they want loans?

And why would this be unofficial rather than official, if First Contact has happened and the public knows about it? Surely it would be a violation of the basic principles of democracy and self-determination and political sovereignty for the Federation to make a planet a protectorate without its full, open consent in the form of a treaty with its legitimate government(s).

This phase is wrapped up with when:
1. Politically, the planet has (ideally) a single stable government with authority over the entire territory held by the species on planet and beyond the planet, or an intergovernmental organization that can do the same thing. There might still be conflicts here or there, some perhaps barely under control, but no wars breaking out;

I don't buy that last part. If there are some conflicts still out there barely under control, then the planet is by definition still politically unstable and disunited, and a flare-up of a local war is inevitable without Federation mediation.

4. Economically, hunger and deprivation may not be eliminated, but there aren't any regions that are outright suffering.

.... how can you logically claim that there are no regions that aren't outright suffering if there's still hunger and deprivation?

Surely whatever else the Federation can do, it can do the simple work of ensuring that no one on the planet is going hungry anymore.

3. Technology-wise, transporters and other technology of roughly 2200-era Earth are in use on a planetary scale;

Erm, the Federation itself wasn't established until 2161. Are you saying that a world isn't ready to even consider Federation Membership until it's progressed beyond the levels Earth had reached when it co-founded the UFP?

I agree - there'd be a briefing as to who's in the area, but I also think that the UFP would be very careful in the speed at which it lets the information out. I can only imagine the planetary freaking out that occurs when people learn about the Borg!

<SNIP>

Absolutely. Poor choice of words on my part. My intent is that local knowledge is melded with Federation knowledge (for example in the sciences), with Federation knowledge (and just as importantly, access to UFP databases like Memory Alpha - because my God, it'd be a planetwide case of learning too much, too fast, of "Too Much Information" if you just gave out full access in one move!)

You keep returning to this theme of "Don't tell them too much or else they'll freak out." I find that entire concept really disturbing. Governments in real life have a habit of relying on that kind of secrecy as a result of a combination of arrogance and paranoia -- "We can't let the little people know too much, they're not as smart as we are and they might screw everything over." So why's the Federation adopting that attitude?

The basic problem with that entire idea is that it's built on the implicit premise that the Federation is inherently superior to the culture being contacted. More specifically, that its people are inherently to the contacted cultures' people.

I'm sorry, but I really don't see any reason to think that an introduction of knowledge about the galaxy at large would cause social collapse. If anything, it would only increase the likelihood that the populace would start to trust the Federation.

Think about it. They're going to find out at some point that the Federates have been hiding things from them. How is that going to make them trust the Federation? How well will that play?

If the people of the Planet Zog discover that there are these creatures out there called the Borg, and Zog lies within the last two Borg cubes' paths when they tried to assimilate the Alpha Quadrant, and that the Federation tried to hide that fact from them, why exactly should the Zoglians trust them ever again?

It would turn the stomachs of many here on TrekBBS, myself included to a point (I like the idea of knowledge being free), but I'd see knowledge being introduced only with the consent of those "in control" such as planetary governmental and religious authorities - not an "all or nothing" thing, but very carefully delineating what can be introduced to a population over time in what areas. I could see most religions, for example, having no problem with knowledge of warp physics or astronomical knowledge...But they might want to hold back on letting knowledge about the Q filter out, while theologians figure out a response. (Yes, I am saying that the Federation would reluctantly assist in censorship. Not because they like it, but because it would be a necessity.

Why? Because the elites are ever so much cleverer than the masses?

Could you possibly be more elitist?

The simple fact of the matter is that to unleash everything at once, on principle, would rip most societies apart. Censorship of anything may often be distasteful to "liberalized" minds such as ours, but the Federation has no interest in seeing First Contact (or the introduction of new things after FC) cause revolutions or societal upheavals. That rarely ends well for the planets that undergo them, and, purely self-interestedly, it probably leads the locals to blame the Federation for introducing everything.)

When Gandhi was demanding that the British leave India, the British response was often that if they left, it would tear India apart. It would be war and chaos and death. It would be a mess.

"Yes," Gandhi said. "But it would be our mess."

The Federation shouldn't be in the business of holding information back that doesn't itself threaten Federation security. If it isn't classified, it should be available to the Zoglians. It has no particular need to volunteer everything, and maybe they don't hook up everyone to the Memory Alpha database, but if Zogvard University asks for a copy of the Encyclopedia Federationea, it should be given to them. If the University of Zaggit-Zagoo wants to send an exchange delegation to the Vulcan Science Academy, Academia Andoria, and Oxford University, then they should be welcomed.

And it should be up to each society to figure out for itself how to assimilate that knowledge. If they're treated with respect, as equals, I doubt it would cause the sort of social chaos you're describing.

Like I said, the big thing is just finding out that aliens exist (and even that won't be that big an issue, since the Zoglians will have had the experience in the past of geographically isolated Zoglians discovering one-another and thinking of one-another as un-Zoglian at first). Everything else is just details.

being introduced first in and through universities, then secondary schools, then primary schools

? Aside from the basic fact that aliens exist, I really don't see why primary education would need to be altered all that much. The primary influences would be on secondary and tertiary education systems.

1. Every national (or supra-national) government gets diplomatic representation from the UFP of some sort, including consular representation.

When Humanity first traveled into space, Humanity didn't, Russia did. When Humanity first traveled to the moon, Humanity didn't, America did. If the breaking the light barrier is analogous to breaking the sound barrier, it not hard to imagine a world with a wide diversity of technological levels and (I'm sorry) civilization levels. So why would the Federation contact the entire world?/QUOTE]

Can you imagine the reaction (politically, diplomatically, strategically) if you only let some nations on Earth have contact with Extraterrestrial Life, while denying the rest of the species knowledge of that fact, or contact with the ETs?

Come on, T'Girl. I don't generally call out a fellow poster directly, but while I know you enough to trust that you mean well, that sounds more than a little disingenuous. You and I both know that if that were done or even suspected to be occurring, and it were even suspected that there was "preferential treatment" happening (as it inevitably would be suspected), all hell would break loose. Not even because of the fact of contact, but because of the possibility of advantages to be gained in a political/military sense.

I'm with Penta on this one. The Federation would need to treat all polities equally.

(I really disliked First Contact (the movie)'s depiction of Cochrane as basically a guy working out of a garage - the development of FTL travel would require national-level resources at a minimum.

Cochrane was working out of a United States Air Force missile silo with converted ICBMs. It seems pretty obvious to me that he probably at least started the project out with government backing. Indeed, the First Contact novelization and, later, the Lost Era novel The Sundered establish that Cochrane began working on the project with federal backing; the project was sidetracked when World War III broke out and the U.S. government became nonfunctional, but with help from asteroid colonies established twenty years before the war and financial backing from Indonesian investors, he eventually got the warp project back on track, albeit without a government to back it.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

T'Girl...I agree it's Malmstrom AFB where Cochrane did his launch. Heck, that's even what my dad (who was in the Air Force) actually concluded it was the instant he heard that line in the movie when it first came out.

 

[Sci]

T'Girl...I agree it's Malmstrom AFB where Cochrane did his launch. Heck, that's even what my dad (who was in the Air Force) actually concluded it was the instant he heard that line in the movie when it first came out.

It can't be Malmstrom Air Force Base. ENT -- specifically, "Desert Crossing," "Carbon Creek," and "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part I" -- established that the Vulcans landed in Bozeman, Montana, and the Vulcans landed in the same town in which was the silo. Bozeman is in Gallatin County; Malmstrom AFB is in Cascade County. The U.S.A.F. must have built a new facility in the years between the present and the start of World War III.

* * *

Also, question:

What does the Federation do if the natives have already established their own set of diplomatic protocols to deal with First Contact? What if they're the ones who want to set the terms of contact?

Doctor Who did a riff on this a few years ago. The British Prime Minister went on TV claiming that he'd made first contact with an alien race called the Toclafane, and that caused the United States to go apeshit. The U.S. President-elect arrived in London, threatened the Prime Minister with removal from office under the provisions of a U.N. treaty signed in the 60s on the topic of how to deal with First Contact, and forced the Prime Minister to hold the formal First Contact ceremony aboard a United Nations aircraft carrier under U.N. auspices. (The Whoniverse's U.N. is a bit more powerful than the real one. )

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Then that's a very unfortunate moment in canon--in that the writers failed to do their research and justify what they were doing in a way that would actually make sense.

 

[Sci]

Then that's a very unfortunate moment in canon--in that the writers failed to do their research and justify what they were doing in a way that would actually make sense.

I'm fairly certain that Brannon Braga considered giving an homage to his hometown of Bozeman to be more important than matching up his fictional mid-21st Century missile silo with an obscure 20th Century Air Force Base's location.

 

[T'Girl]

t can't be Malmstrom Air Force Base. ENT -- specifically, "Desert Crossing," "Carbon Creek," and "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part I" -- established that the Vulcans landed in Bozeman, Montana, and the Vulcans landed in the same town in which was the silo. Bozeman is in Gallatin County; Malmstrom AFB is in Cascade County. The U.S.A.F. must have built a new facility in the years between the present and the start of World War III.

A few problems with it being Bozeman, Montana. The movie take place on April 4 - 5, 2063. Bozeman is in the rocky mountains at 4,800 feet, Malmstrom AFB is on the Montana plains at 3,300 feet, if the missile complex were in Bozeman, than the area would be completely covered in snow.

Also, Data clearly states that the missile complex was located "In Central Montana." which describes Malmstrom AFB nicely. Bozeman is in the south-western portion of the state.

Also the START treaty has lead to the early retirement of the LGM-118 Peacekeeper ICBM, the USAF is dumping a ton of money into the refurbishing of the Minuteman Threes (they're getting the Peacekeeper's warheads), the MM3's have existing silos at Malmstrom AFB.. The plan is to keep them for "many more decades." The missile in the movie is modeled on the MM3, a new generation of ICBM's is unlikely to look exactly like a MM3. The silo has to be part of Malmstrom AFB.

Rather than conjecturing a new missile complex, it might be easier to believe in the establishment of a new community in central Montana named "Bozeman." Perhaps the former Bozeman was destroyed in the war because of the rumor that a new missile complex was being built there!

 

[Sci]

t can't be Malmstrom Air Force Base. ENT -- specifically, "Desert Crossing," "Carbon Creek," and "In A Mirror, Darkly, Part I" -- established that the Vulcans landed in Bozeman, Montana, and the Vulcans landed in the same town in which was the silo. Bozeman is in Gallatin County; Malmstrom AFB is in Cascade County. The U.S.A.F. must have built a new facility in the years between the present and the start of World War III.

A few problems with it being Bozeman, Montana. The movie take place on April 4 - 5, 2063. Bozeman is in the rocky mountains at 4,800 feet, Malmstrom AFB is on the Montana plains at 3,300 feet, if the missile complex were in Bozeman, than the area would be completely covered in snow.

Also, Data clearly states that the missile complex was located "In Central Montana." which describes Malmstrom AFB nicely. Bozeman is in the south-western portion of the state.

Also the START treaty has lead to the early retirement of the LGM-118 Peacekeeper ICBM, the USAF is dumping a ton of money into the refurbishing of the Minuteman Threes (they're getting the Peacekeeper's warheads), the MM3's have existing silos at Malmstrom AFB.. The plan is to keep them for "many more decades." The missile in the movie is modeled on the MM3, a new generation of ICBM's is unlikely to look exactly like a MM3. The silo has to be part of Malmstrom AFB.

Rather than conjecturing a new missile complex, it might be easier to believe in the establishment of a new community in central Montana named "Bozeman." Perhaps the former Bozeman was destroyed in the war because of the rumor that a new missile complex was being built there!

Wouldn't it just be easier to believe that Bozeman, Montana, in the Star Trek Universe is located in a different part of the state than its real-world counterpart? And why is it easier to believe in the establishment of an entire new town than in a new missile silo?

And it still can't be Malmstrom, because it's far too small. Malmstrom AFB is much larger than the small complex seen in ST:FC.

 

[T'Girl]

Before a certain pre-warp point, you ignore a planet except for an occasional flyby and passive monitoring

I truly believe that just about every pre~warp inhabited planet, regardless of it's stage of development, is going to be completely COVERED in researchers. Sociologists and anthropologists. Why content yourself with studying remote scans when you can live among the people of any historical period you choose for years, even decades, before retiring back to your homeworld and writing your doctoral dissertation.

And yes, they'll be careful.

Wouldn't it just be easier to believe that Bozeman, Montana, in the Star Trek Universe is located in a different part of the state than its real-world counterpart?

Yes.

And it still can't be Malmstrom, because it's far too small. Malmstrom AFB is much larger than the small complex seen in ST:FC.

Sure it can, in the movie we saw just one silo in central Montana, one silo doesn't make for a "complex." Malmstrom has hundreds of silos scattered over thousands of square miles, that is what a complex is.

 

[Timo]

I still don't see the point in insisting that the facility be a real and preexisting one - after all, the surface construct used to describe it is a set rather than a real location. At some point, the mimicry is going to break down. Why not forget all about it from the get-go?

We aren't really trying to claim that the McKinley rocket base of TOS fame would be Kennedy Space Center by a different name, even if in the real world Kennedy was the only place in the universe capable of launching a Saturn 5. It's not the same universe. The Trek universe Earth in the 1960s simply had more and better spaceflight facilities; it probably had more and better nuclear missile launch facilities in the 2060s, too.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[neozeks]

The problem with this notion is that real history defies it. The world's cultures spent most of history coming into contact with strange and alien cultures whose common humanity they did not immediately recognize. The cultures that exist today are the descendants of cultures that were routinely making first contact with cultures that they considered the equivalent to what we would call extraterrestrial today.

Eh, I'm still partly with Penta on this one. I see your point but my gut tells me meeting alien life is something qualitatively different than anything that has happened in the past.

10. Limit how much they have to take in: Don't use a transporter, use a shuttlecraft if you can, to transport personnel. Don't use a replicator when you can cook real food...

I really don't think this is an issue at all. A species that has developed warp technology is going to have already speculated about the possible existence of aliens, and they're inevitably going to have developed the idea that many different technologies far in advance of their own may exist. The only real threshold is finding out with certainty that aliens exist; everything else is just a matter of degree.

I think this is more a point of trying not to scare or wow the species you are meeting with your superior technology, of trying to meet them on a as level playing field as possible.

Surely whatever else the Federation can do, it can do the simple work of ensuring that no one on the planet is going hungry anymore.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that the Federation wouldn't try it's best to do that. Just that even with all it's awesome technology, resources will always be limited and eradicating something like poverty will take a lot of time. Just like the Federation couldn't help Bajor recover overnight.

You keep returning to this theme of "Don't tell them too much or else they'll freak out." I find that entire concept really disturbing...

...The basic problem with that entire idea is that it's built on the implicit premise that the Federation is inherently superior to the culture being contacted. More specifically, that its people are inherently to the contacted cultures' people...

...The Federation shouldn't be in the business of holding information back that doesn't itself threaten Federation security. If it isn't classified, it should be available to the Zoglians.

I still think it's sensible to limit the amount of information you give them all at once, for several reasons. People of the Federation have had decades if not centuries to adapt to and learn to live with some things. You can't get something like that overnight, you can't graft a centuries more advanced culture to the local culture just like that. Sure, give them everything with time - but not attempting to control the effects even a little is iresponsible.

It has nothing to do with 'superiority'. If an ancient Greek suddenly popped out of a time machine next to you, you wouldn't try to teach him quantum theory or give him access to a complicated modern appliance the very next day. You'd overwhelm him. And it doesn't mean he's inferior to you or any less smart than you. He just has a different starting position and you need to give him time to adapt.

One more point. If you give them everything on a platter at once, you'll be robbing them of a chance to further develop by themselves, you'll stiffle their own creativity and progress.

As for the Borg example... Honestly? I do think it's better not to tell them at once. I mean, imagine if aliens landed on Earth tomorrow and told us an unstoppable enemy is roaming around. It would be mass histeria - and it wouldn't help us deal with the Borg one bit.

 

[Penta]

Ow, I'm confused as to what I should be responding to.

I did notice the thing about 'What if the locals have their own protocols?', though, and in lieu of blinking confusedly will try to answer that.

I think that the Federation, because bureaucracy tends to fall into this trap even when they shouldn't, probably plans for a situation like they faced when they were the ones who were the locals; Which, in the human context, means we might have reasons to think there are aliens, we might even have notional plans for an alien contact (done by the same folks planning, for example, wars and other crisis responses, either as a training exercise or because things got slow at the office one day), but those plans weren't designed for real implementation in any case, are never updated (let alone exercised), and are utterly useless...All because even if logic suggests there might be aliens, nobody really thinks (or is likely to admit they think) it's at all likely. Until, of course, it happens.

 

[Penta]

...I'm just going to say that there are plenty of points in this thread where Neozeks expresses my thinking better than I do, his last post being a great example. WTF is up with that?

 

[T'Girl]

Surely whatever else the Federation can do, it can do the simple work of ensuring that no one on the planet is going hungry anymore.

I don't think anyone is insinuating that the Federation wouldn't try it's best to do that. Just that even with all it's awesome technology, resources will always be limited and eradicating something like poverty will take a lot of time. Just like the Federation couldn't help Bajor recover overnight.

The Federation could offer knowledge in areas like agriculture and managing resources. However it would hardly be the Federation government's place to ensure anything on the surface of that world.

That I can recall, we've never seen the Federation withhold information from a culture that it considered equal to its own. It seems to me that withholding knowledge from an equal, or acceding to the censoring desires of its powerful structures is

Of course we've seen the Federation with hold knowledge from equals.

One of the thing that came out of the series Enterprise was that at the time Vulcan Starship-cruisers moved quite comfortably at warp factor seven, that was the Vulcan Starship-cruiser's cruising speed. Well over a hundred years later, during TOS, the Starship Enterprise moves quite comfortably at warp factor six, that is it's cruising speed. Not only aren't the Vulcan's sharing current knowledge and technology, they're not even sharing their old knowledge and technology with the rest of the Federation's members.

Captain Janeway made quite the point of not sharing replicator technology with warp-capable cultures. So censorship is very consistent with the Federation government's displayed philosophies and behavior. Also with the philosophies and behavior of individual Members (like the Vulcans).

Even they aren't as assiduous about it as the Feds though, because of internal issues (in the Klingon case) and their own xenophobia/isolationism (in the Romulan case).

While it is possible to have a benevolent government that is referred to as an "empire," my impression is that the term benevolent applies to neither the Klingons nor the Romulans. Non-canon conventional thinking is that, after the Romulans colonized Romulus, they set about colonizing, conquering and subjugating the surrounding star systems. The Klingon pretty much the same, also the Klingons basically have a ongoing slave culture, even aboard their ships.

... for the Federation to make a planet a protectorate without its full, open consent in the form of a treaty with its legitimate government(s).

If The New Race's (TNR's) star system exists well inside the Federations boundaries, if it's basically completely surrounded by the Federation, then the Federation government is going to be be keeping the Klingons, Romulans, others away from TNR because the Federation is simply keeping those races out of it's space. It makes no difference if TNR is prewarp or warp-capable. It like when Italy protects it's borders, Italy is unofficial protecting The Holy See. However that doesn't make The Holy See a protectorate. Once the TNR begins to make their own alliances, that could change.

Politically, the planet has (ideally) a single stable government with authority over the entire territory held by the species on planet and beyond the planet, or an intergovernmental organization that can do the same thing. There might still be conflicts here or there, some perhaps barely under control, but no wars breaking out;

I don't buy that last part. If there are some conflicts still out there barely under control, then the planet is by definition still politically unstable and disunited, and a flare-up of a local war is inevitable without Federation mediation.

But it doesn't mean the entire planet is out of control, it mean isolated regions are. On Earth today there are seventeen plus "hot" wars ongoing, but as a whole the majority of the Earth is politically stable, even in some of the counrties engaged in those wars the populace is largely unaffected. Other places on Earth have ongoing cool and cold wars, I mentioned briefly up-thread the North/South Korea conflict, if the Federation will not initiate First Contact if two countries are currently are war, well the Koreas are. When the Vulcan's land in 2063, the Koreas still might be at war.

a single stable government with authority over ...

A single world government is hardly a panacea for ending all conflicts, the country of Mexico has (theoretically) authority over all it's territory, yet one of the hot wars I included in my numbering was the one in their northern border regions.

The Federation shouldn't be in the business of holding information back

The Federation government shouldn't be in the business of dishing up information either or for that matter giving detailed briefings.. The businesses in the Federation might have something like a interstellar internet information/news service, maybe TNR should look into a subscription.

Both Penta and Sci seem to view first contact as a diplomatic event, a meeting between two governments. In Sci case, there' are opportunities for treaties and agreements.

Penta seems to see first contact as obligation to bring a new warp-capable culture up to speed with the rest of the galaxy within a few generation, possible with the idea that they automatically are potential candidates for Federation Membership.

Personal, I see first contact as merely a initial meet and greet. More of a welcoming someone new to the neighborhood environment. Instead of a elaborate briefing on galactic politics, it would actual be very much like what we saw near the end of the movie First Contact, with the social interact between Zephram Cochrane and the Vulcan (Captain?).

This would also be the perfect venue to inquire as to whether TNR might simply wish to be left alone.

As much as possible this should be a happy occasion, later there will be plenty of time for formalities, assuming TNR even engages in them. The first contact parties (to use a term) would be composed of socialists, not diplomats, in addition there can be individuals from the Federation Member world's in the immediate vicinity, as well as nearby warp-capable non-Federation members. People from the stars that TNR's ancestors knew were closest tto them. People who live in star systems that TNR can now reach using only their brand new warp drive, without any help from the Federation government.

This will provide TNR with the self-confidence that, should they choose too, they can stay independent of outside influences, at least until they "get their feet under themselves."

If later they want the Federation to completely reorder their civilization without any input from them ... I guess they can ask.

------------------

The OP for this thread was; "New member integration in the UFP," we have kind of gotten hung up on the subject of first contact (where we can stay), It would be interesting to consider how a actual new member does integrate into the entire Federation, and not just the government. As well as how the Federation integrates and changes with each new member. Surely the Federation that original existed with just six members would be long gone by the time we get to one hundred and fifty plus!

 

[Penta]

Another point where I think I tripped myself up with my tongue.

I should really be clearer. I see First Contact as both an event and a process.

There's the event of first contact (which should indeed be a happy occasion, if mostly in hindsight)...And then follows the process of first contact. We've been talking about both, I think.

See, I see FC the event (or sequence of events) being something one celebrates only in retrospect, maybe not for years afterwards. While it's happening, even the most well-disposed locals are going to be pretty scared, probably. Might not show it, but the fear will be there.

FC as a process, the process of "saying hello" and introducing the new folks to the fact that the galaxy is suddenly a lot bigger than they thought it was...Probably takes years to go from something tentative to something relatively normal where you might not say relations are still being established.

But yes, that is side-tracking us from new member integration. Before we begin that, though...Has it ever clearly been laid out what the conditions for UFP membership to be granted are, canonically? I'm coming out of a migrane, and don't fully recall.

 

[neozeks]

...I'm just going to say that there are plenty of points in this thread where Neozeks expresses my thinking better than I do, his last post being a great example. WTF is up with that?

It's obvious. I have mind-reading powers.

Has it ever clearly been laid out what the conditions for UFP membership to be granted are, canonically? I'm coming out of a migrane, and don't fully recall.

Not really. We do know caste based discrimination is a no-no (yes, someone will bring up Ardana, but it can be argued that was a special case). Also, a unified world government is very much prefered, but I think it's not an absolute requirement. Aside from that, if you believe the Federation is a liberal social democracy, as I do, I suppose it would be respect for basic rights, social justice, general stability of the society etc. The exact requirements are probably very detailed and technical and the process probably lasts a long time in the best of cases, not to mention the more unusuall ones. To use the EU as an example, Iceland is a fully developed Western country, yet it's admission into the EU will still take years - and we're not even talking about completely alien cultures and full federalism here.

 

[T'Girl]

Why would anyone what to join the Federation in the first place, as opposed to just having a series of treaties and agreements?

Why would the Federation even want (or is it need) new members? They already have many dozens.

Has it ever clearly been laid out what the conditions for UFP membership to be granted are, canonically? I'm coming out of a migrane, and don't fully recall.

Not really. We do know caste based discrimination is a no-no (yes, someone will bring up Ardana, but it can be argued that was a special case).

The argument could also be made that Adana wasn't the special case, Bajor was. The Federation might only have a problem with religious based caste systems, not caste systems in general. If hypothetically 140 Federation members had some sort of caste systems and 10 did not, that would make Earth and the few others the odd ones out, not Adana.

With their rigid societal structure it would not be hard to imagine the Vulcans to currently have a caste system. Perhaps the main reason Sarek was so piss off at Spock was that he refused to go into "the family business."

Also, a unified world government is very much prefered, but I think it's not an absolute requirement.

Likely only a preference, the Federation government would need to have a body that they interfaced with during the procedure of admitting the new Member, after that the body could be dissolved and the Federation government would then interface solely through the Member's chosen representative. Once the Member is sending a representative it doesn't make any difference if the Member has one government or a thousand.

Aside from that, if you believe the Federation is a liberal social democracy, as I do,

It might be helpful in this discussion to indicate who exactly we're talking about, there's

The Federation government.
The Federation as a whole (the populace culture-society excepting the government)
The Members as a part of the Federation government
The Members as internal governments

Strictly speaking, I actual don't believe the Federation government is a liberal social democracy, I think it's a simple democracy. I believe the Federation government lacks the ability and authority to even be "liberal social." I do believe many of the individual Member governments however are liberal social democracies, but certainly not every one of them.

Member don't have to conform.

And that's one of the many reasons why you as a non-Federation member would want to become a Federation Member.

if you believe ... as I do

Most of the government functions within the Federation are handled below the Federation government level, the Federation government is solely a government in interstellar matters, it exercises no "internal sovereignty" upon it's Members. So when a single planet, a small multi-star republic or an association of star systems (multiple species) joins the Federation as a new Member or new Members, they lose nothing, only gain. Their, again, internal sovereignty is intact, their governmental system remains the same after they join the Federation as it was before. The Federation government only has authority over their interactions with other Federation members and the galaxy as a whole.

Why would the prospective new Member agree to give up a portion of it's sovereignty? They don't.

And that's one of the many reasons why you as a non-Federation member would want to become a Federation Member.

I suppose it would be respect for basic rights, social justice, general stability of the society etc.

The Federation government could neither require nor impose these upon the Members. If your society was bad enough to start with, then the Federation government wouldn't consider you as a Member in the first place. Or separately if your culture changed enough through time, the other Members could implore you to change or basically "vote you out." But once a Member, the Federation government would lack the legal power to reach down into your social and government systems and make even the smallest of changes.

An example, Let's say the Federation government declared a certain cargo to be contraband. You couldn't ship that "whatever" around the Federation as a whole, However you could ship it inside your own star system and solely inbetween your collection of interstellar colonies. Again, you're internally sovereign.

If however another Member were to injure you (legal sense), then through the Federation you could receive satisfaction.

And that's a couple of the many reasons why you as a non-Federation member would want to become a Federation Member.

The exact requirements are probably very detailed and technical and the process probably lasts a long time in the best of cases,

I would imagine that the evaluation process is very extensive, and likely a bit intrusive. The Federation government's many investigation teams would be everywhere, realistically for years. Examining not just the government, but the society in general, the cultural institutions.

It would be analogous to buying a used car that you would be forbidden to repair. The most you could do is junk it.

And the investigation would of course be two way, I would think the potential new Member would want to look deeply into the Federation government too, to "look at the books."

To use the EU as an example, Iceland is

Imagine if Iceland wanted to join the United States instead of the EU and one day they show up at the CIA and insist on looking unrestricted through the files.

We can't always assume that a potential new Member is one who only recently achieved warp flight, the species may have possessed warp flight for hundreds or even thousands of years before meeting the Federation, and the Federation has only be interacting with them for a few decades.

Federation, from the Latin: foedus, foederis or 'covenant.' The English word covenant means "a coming together." Covenants can include treaties, alliances, agreements, compacts, pledges, mutual agreements, promises, and undertakings on behalf of another.

Federation; A body formed by a number of nations, states, societies, businesses, unions, communities, etc., each retaining control of its own internal affairs.

 

[neozeks]

The argument could also be made that Adana wasn't the special case, Bajor was. The Federation might only have a problem with religious based caste systems, not caste systems in general.

That would hardly be logical on the part of the Federation. Why single out just religious cases?

Once the Member is sending a representative it doesn't make any difference if the Member has one government or a thousand.

But it does. Why would the Federation want to have as it's member something as uneffective as the today's UN? Every time the governments within can't agree on something (which is most of the time), the representative on the Federation Council would find his hands tied.

Strictly speaking, I actual don't believe the Federation government is a liberal social democracy, I think it's a simple democracy. I believe the Federation government lacks the ability and authority to even be "liberal social." I do believe many of the individual Member governments however are liberal social democracies, but certainly not every one of them.

T'Girl, I know you're partial to the 'confederation' view of the UFP but I think history has showed confederations do not work in the long term (I don't think there's really a single true confederation left today). They are simply ineffective and eventually either disolve or turn into proper federations.

Why would the prospective new Member agree to give up a portion of it's sovereignty?

Why are EU members ready to give up a portion of their sovereignty to the EU? The EU isn't even a federation, it's currently a strange mix of federation/confederation/IGO, yet it has the power to influence and change, by legal force if neccessary, the systems and policies of it's members.

Imagine if Iceland wanted to join the United States instead of the EU and one day they show up at the CIA and insist on looking unrestricted through the files.

Umm, do states in the US (or their governments) get access to such things at all? Or is it restricted just to the federal govt (and whoever they authorize)? And anyway, if you're not ready to trust them with your intelligence data, you won't let them in in the first place.