Online Petition Bring Back Kathryn Janeway!

[AuntKate]

Nope, I'm saying that certain sets of the fandom are highly hurt and emotional because they feel like little respect has been shown to their favorite character. It's gotten their ire up, and made them more fanatical and less just 'fan'-like.

Since no one has really listened to the Janeway fans about Janeway in the past, the likelihood is they will not now either.

It's a combination of years of pent up frustration coming out.

If you want to ignore us, that's perfectly fine. But, then, it seems counterproductive to ignoring Janeway fans to come in wanting to know why we'd like to see her come back.

This is the paradox of the situation, Adm_Hawthorne. Why do those who disagree with Janeway fans keep coming to these threads to stir up the pot? It seems like a sport they enjoy.

As for the years of frustration, I heartily agree. Most positive opinions of Voyager in general or Janeway in specific were methodically (and persistantly) laughed on the board "back in the day." Many VOY fans have left TrekBBS because of it. When PD killed her in such a silly way and in a TNG novel, the critics didn't sympathize with disappointed fans as one might expect. The response was to ridicule the fans for their disappointment or, worse, revel in the character's demise. As a result, the trenches were dug.

Who is to blame? It seems to me that both sides have an equal amount of responsibility. The Janeway fans aren't going to give up, and the other side seems to be unable to let them have their say without responding to it--often in a way that seems to be intentionally disrespectful.

 

[Mr Silver]

I haven't read the novel in which Janeway is killed off, however I think it was a silly move and served no purpose, to me it seemed as if Peter David was in full "fanboy wank" mode

*Janeway became the new "Borg Queen"
*Seven Of Nine came up with some weird "Endgame Virus"

These points just cry "Fanwank" and I know its not a term people like, but it really didn't do the character of Janeway justice by having her fall to an enemy she's defeated so many times before...while she's still got things to offer as a character

 

[Thestral]

Nope, I'm saying that certain sets of the fandom are highly hurt and emotional because they feel like little respect has been shown to their favorite character. It's gotten their ire up, and made them more fanatical and less just 'fan'-like.

So... heading towards unreasonable and irrational then? Especially since they're ignoring the deep amount of respect Janeway received in "Full Circle."

Since no one has really listened to the Janeway fans about Janeway in the past, the likelihood is they will not now either.

Nobody should listen to the fans' dictation. Of any character. That way lies madness, because whose fans do you appease? What the editors and authors need to do is tell the stories they want to tell, and let the audience enjoy or not enjoy them. The stories should stand on their own terms, not whether or not they appease a certain percentage of fans.

If you want to ignore us, that's perfectly fine. But, then, it seems counterproductive to ignoring Janeway fans to come in wanting to know why we'd like to see her come back.

I think the editors and authors should ignore the demands of people who are unwilling to accept they won't get their way all the time and that it's not a betrayal of a character to take her/him in a direction said people disagree with.

Which doesn't contradict an effort to elucidate motivations and opinions.

As for the years of frustration, I heartily agree. Most positive opinions of Voyager in general or Janeway in specific were methodically (and persistantly) laughed on the board "back in the day." Many VOY fans have left TrekBBS because of it. When PD killed her in such a silly way and in a TNG novel, the critics didn't sympathize with disappointed fans as one might expect. The response was to ridicule the fans for their disappointment or, worse, revel in the character's demise. As a result, the trenches were dug.

It's not "back in the day" anymore. Your characterization of PAD's methods are subjective, so why would you expect everyone to agree with your disappointment? You have a fair point about doing it in a TNG novel, but there were no VOY novels at the time, and Janeway had been guest-appearing in TNG novels already - thank Paramount for putting her in Nemesis. Fortunately "Full Circle" has by all accounts done a magnificent job.

...but it really didn't do the character of Janeway justice by having her fall to an enemy she's defeated so many times before...while she's still got things to offer as a character

In contrast, I think having Janeway fall to the Borg (and ultimately assist in defeating them) was absolutely doing her character justice, as she's had so many occasions where she's gone up against them in extremely dangerous situations. Not unlike Sisko and Dukat going down together, and in much the same way a higher power sort-of intervened at the last second. Janeway doesn't have the personal vendetta against them like Picard does, but she's also been far more successful against them.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

Kestral, what do you want me to say? What is it you want to hear from the ardent Janeway fans that would make for a happy answer as to why we'd like see her come back?

There's got to be something you're looking for here.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

In contrast, I think having Janeway fall to the Borg (and ultimately assist in defeating them) was absolutely doing her character justice, as she's had so many occasions where she's gone up against them in extremely dangerous situations. Not unlike Sisko and Dukat going down together, and in much the same way a higher power sort-of intervened at the last second. Janeway doesn't have the personal vendetta against them like Picard does, but she's also been far more successful against them.

Did you read the book? I've said all along I might have accepted Janeway's death if it wasn't done so very badly in a completely laughable book that was the worst written Treklit I've ever read (and I shelves and shelves of the stuff). It wasn't bland and mediocre like some Trek series I could mention.. it was BAD. It SUCKED. It read like he wrote it while on the toilet. Much of it read like a first draft that you want to come back to later and add color and flesh and prune out the ridiculousness you just dashed off in a hurry to get the idea down. Much of it was ludicrous. The character of Janeway is made out to be some megalomaniac who is finally gets her just desserts, hoisted by her own petard blah blah blah..

It's a piece of crap. If you're going to knock off a major character don't you want people to tear up, to grieve.. for it to have impact? Pocket Books blew it, and for what? So we could then have to wade through pages and pages across several books of Chakotay turning into some emo soap opera? Yeah. That's what VOY fans always wanted to read.

 

[Brit]

Nope, I'm saying that certain sets of the fandom are highly hurt and emotional because they feel like little respect has been shown to their favorite character. It's gotten their ire up, and made them more fanatical and less just 'fan'-like.

So... heading towards unreasonable and irrational then? Especially since they're ignoring the deep amount of respect Janeway received in "Full Circle."

That’s your opinion Kestrel, I don’t find anything respectful in giving a segment of the fandom one of the very basic things they have asked for, but then take it back because she is dead. That isn’t respectful to the character at all, and it's a slap in the face to a lot of Janeway fans.

Since no one has really listened to the Janeway fans about Janeway in the past, the likelihood is they will not now either.

Nobody should listen to the fans' dictation. Of any character. That way lies madness, because whose fans do you appease? What the editors and authors need to do is tell the stories they want to tell, and let the audience enjoy or not enjoy them. The stories should stand on their own terms, not whether or not they appease a certain percentage of fans.

I think the editors and authors should ignore the demands of people who are unwilling to accept they won't get their way all the time and that it's not a betrayal of a character to take her/him in a direction said people disagree with.

LOL Kestrel, you really don’t know anything about publishing do you? Why shouldn’t Editors and Publishers listen to the people that purchase their books? This is a business and while in times past publishing companies were allowed to lose money and were used as tax write-offs, that is no longer the case. Publishers are compelled by their owners to make money now.

One genre has made it their business to know who their fans are and what their fans want to read and because of that the Romance Book industry is the only ones that made money last year. Romance novels sell just about half of all novels sold. They take their fans very seriously.

The times are changing and if editors and authors do not produce profits, they will be replaced by people that can and we are going to make sure our voices are heard this time. We will not sit quietly by any longer. And if you don’t think fans can dictate anything, just remember who hosted “Saturday Night Live,” and look at the ratings generated. The fans organized, got Betty White as a hostess and the show did really well.

There isn’t a single reason why we can’t do the same thing.

Brit

 

[Guy Gardener]

Saturday Night live isn't funny.

Betty White as McGruber's Grandmother really wasn't funny.

Best of intentions however I believe.

 

[Thestral]

Kestrel, what do you want me to say? What is it you want to hear from the ardent Janeway fans that would make for a happy answer as to why we'd like see her come back?

There's got to be something you're looking for here.

This deserves an answer. Basically I'm looking for people to stop saying Pocket's editors made some sort of traitorous/evil decision about what to do with their character just because said fan segment doesn't like it. Or that killing a character is automatically bad just because it's a character you like. Or that Pocket's authors are clearly bad writers and/or they don't really care about Voyager just because of the decision they made. Or that it's some sort of moral injustice that the universe goes on without Kathryn Janeway.

Obviously you'd like to see her come back. That much is pretty blatant and I'd never question it. I guess an answer that would satisfy me is why should Pocket derail their plans or cater solely to the whims of a small subset of fans and resurrect Janeway in a particular timeline?

Which, as a note, I've noticed you in particular haven't been asking for necessarily, just some stories with Janeway in them; I've got no beef with that as long as the ongoing TrekLit "prime" verse continues.

It's a piece of crap. If you're going to knock off a major character don't you want people to tear up, to grieve.. for it to have impact? Pocket Books blew it, and for what? So we could then have to wade through pages and pages across several books of Chakotay turning into some emo soap opera? Yeah. That's what VOY fans always wanted to read.

Soo... you don't like Before Dishonor and feel like it did a bad job. Fair enough, and you ask for that story to be couched in a Voyager tale. But the response to Full Circle has been overwhelmingly positive, so it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't?

So... heading towards unreasonable and irrational then? Especially since they're ignoring the deep amount of respect Janeway received in "Full Circle."

That’s your opinion Kestrel, I don’t find anything respectful in giving a segment of the fandom one of the very basic things they have asked for, but then take it back because she is dead. That isn’t respectful to the character at all, and it's a slap in the face to a lot of Janeway fans.

It's inherently respectful - it shows deep respect to the character of Janeway and the profound place she had in her (former) crew's lives. Not unlike (though nowhere near the scale or significance of) the Vietnam Wall, showing respect to all those who died.

LOL Kestrel, you really don’t know anything about publishing do you? Why shouldn’t Editors and Publishers listen to the people that purchase their books? This is a business and while in times past publishing companies were allowed to lose money and were used as tax write-offs, that is no longer the case. Publishers are compelled by their owners to make money now.

No, I really don't care. My whole point is about the story being told, and the responsibility of the storyteller to tell the story he or she wants to. Unless there's been some sort of mass loss in readership and spiraling out of control losses - and dollars to doughnuts says there hasn't been - it's the responsibility of the storytellers to tell their stories with the least interference possible. Editors and authors should not - cannot - sacrifice the sanctity of their stories on the altar of "appeasing the fans."

One genre has made it their business to know who their fans are and what their fans want to read and because of that the Romance Book industry is the only ones that made money last year. Romance novels sell just about half of all novels sold. They take their fans very seriously.

Apples and oranges, but whatever. I'm glad they're happy. Probably best if I keep my opinion of romance novels to myself. I'm sure you think American Idol is the greatest show on television too?

The times are changing and if editors and authors do not produce profits, they will be replaced by people that can and we are going to make sure our voices are heard this time. We will not sit quietly by any longer. And if you don’t think fans can dictate anything, just remember who hosted “Saturday Night Live,” and look at the ratings generated. The fans organized, got Betty White as a hostess and the show did really well.

There isn’t a single reason why we can’t do the same thing.

Brit

And here I was expecting you to pull out the old "the fans saved Star Trek" thing.

 

[Adm_Hawthorne]

If that's the answer you're looking for, you're barking up the wrong tree.

The whole point/lament of the thing is that we want Janeway to come back because we think her send off was done poorly.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Futurama and family guy returned from cancellation hell because of DVD sales are a good example too.

 

[Thestral]

If that's the answer you're looking for, you're barking up the wrong tree.

The whole point/lament of the thing is that we want Janeway to come back because we think her send off was done poorly.

We can go back and forth about how it was done until we're blue in the face, but I personally don't see how that matters. I think Sisko's send-off was a terrible resolution to that plotline, I think Tasha died a meaningless death the first/later time (though that was intentional and provided impetus for her second/earlier death, so I have no quibbles with it), I found Data's death to be stupid, and Kirk's death is the impetus for a TV Tropes page of "getting rid of characters unceremoniously." But I'd rather not compound the error by making it worse.

And even allowing that, I've also seen plenty of posts that dead!Janeway is unacceptable no matter what or how well it's done.

Futurama and family guy returned from cancellation hell because of DVD sales are a good example too.

Granted. But all three are examples of continuing stories (and there was more story to tell), not a specific plot point.

 

[Brit]

It's a piece of crap. If you're going to knock off a major character don't you want people to tear up, to grieve.. for it to have impact? Pocket Books blew it, and for what? So we could then have to wade through pages and pages across several books of Chakotay turning into some emo soap opera? Yeah. That's what VOY fans always wanted to read.

Soo... you don't like Before Dishonor and feel like it did a bad job. Fair enough, and you ask for that story to be couched in a Voyager tale. But the response to Full Circle has been overwhelmingly positive, so it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't?

That’s only an opinion Kestrel, the response to “Full Circle” and “Unworthy” or any of the rest of the current Trek novels were not enough to keep Margaret Clark her job, which is proof enough that although this small circle of Trek readers may have liked what was being written the reading public on a whole didn’t, so don’t try to call “Full Circle” a success when it very clearly was not.

No, I really don't care. My whole point is about the story being told, and the responsibility of the storyteller to tell the story he or she wants to. Unless there's been some sort of mass loss in readership and spiraling out of control losses - and dollars to doughnuts says there hasn't been - it's the responsibility of the storytellers to tell their stories with the least interference possible. Editors and authors should not - cannot - sacrifice the sanctity of their stories on the altar of "appeasing the fans."

It really doesn’t matter how great a story is to any one person, if no one wants to read it, it is considered a failure, and Trek literature has been failing for a while now. It is losing (not gaining) readership.

One genre has made it their business to know who their fans are and what their fans want to read and because of that the Romance Book industry is the only ones that made money last year. Romance novels sell just about half of all novels sold. They take their fans very seriously.

Apples and oranges, but whatever. I'm glad they're happy. Probably best if I keep my opinion of romance novels to myself. I'm sure you think American Idol is the greatest show on television too?

Apples and oranges, LOL no it’s novel sales against novel sales, marketing guys don’t care what’s between the pages, just so it sales. And if you don’t believe how much influence the marketing guys have, just take a little trip down to Trek Literature and ask you friendly authors just who has the final say on what is on the cover of their books. Authors (no matter the genre) have very little say, it’s all marketing.

And it really doesn’t matter if you like any genre or not, the point is romance publishers pay attention to their fans and they make money from their book sales. That is the point. It is very much something talked about in the industry and has come to the point where at least one Science Fiction writer has added romantic elements to a story and want’s to know why he can’t label his book “Romance.”

And I have never seen "American Idol" so I don't know if I would like it, I do however watch "Survivor"

The times are changing and if editors and authors do not produce profits, they will be replaced by people that can and we are going to make sure our voices are heard this time. We will not sit quietly by any longer. And if you don’t think fans can dictate anything, just remember who hosted “Saturday Night Live,” and look at the ratings generated. The fans organized, got Betty White as a hostess and the show did really well.

There isn’t a single reason why we can’t do the same thing.

And here I was expecting you to pull out the old "the fans saved Star Trek" thing.

And they did, but one person started it by the name of Bjo Trimble, I in fact wrote one of those famous letters then. I have a really good idea how much fans with money to spend, can influence a media.

And again it really doesn’t matter if you like Betty White, or if the show was funny to you or not, the point is the fans got together, they got the attention of the producers of the show and go her on as a host, and then they watched the show, supporting the decision. It was win for her fans and win for the show itself.

The real point is to follow the money, or the lack of it.

Brit

 

[Lynx]

I like the Voyager characters and I don't want to see any of them wasted, destroyed, killed off or ruined because of some petty effects, office policy or sheer greed and stupidity.

When I read a Voyager book, I want to read about all the Voyager books from the series, not some replacements.

I also think that it's a duty for each and every person to protest and voice his/her opinion when something is wrong and I also believe in the possibility to change things by voicing an opinion.

Therefore I've been protesting against the character destruction in certain episodes and books and therefore I've signed the petition.

Bring back Janeway!

Bring back Kes, Neelix and Tuvok too!

 

[USS Intrepid]

Okay, I want the novels to bring Janeway back, and hate the way she was killed off, but honestly, Full Circle and Unworthy are wonderful continuations of the Voyager story, and this repetitive knee-jerk trashing of them is just silly.

The fact that Kirsten Beyer is writing a third Voyager novel suggests Pocket is quite happy with how the novels did, so the suggestion that they 'failed' seems to lack any basis in logical argument whatsoever.

 

[Galekarens]

Hi, Lynx, so you know, Neelix was briefly in the last "Voy" novel (and at least Tuvov's not, ugh, dead), but of course, I agree (and so do many others), Bring Back Janeway! PS, there is speculation that the reason KB was asked to write another "Voy" novel is that since Pocket Books can't publish NuTrek novels, they are desperate for anything, even if perhaps might only be somewhat successful (and IMHO Unworthy was kind of boring w/out KJ & this reader of MANY Trek novels is not the least bit interested in another one w/out her).

 

[Brit]

Okay, I want the novels to bring Janeway back, and hate the way she was killed off, but honestly, Full Circle and Unworthy are wonderful continuations of the Voyager story, and this repetitive knee-jerk trashing of them is just silly.

The fact that Kirsten Beyer is writing a third Voyager novel suggests Pocket is quite happy with how the novels did, so the suggestion that they 'failed' seems to lack any basis in logical argument whatsoever.

I never trashed the quality of the books other than saying they contained new characters some of which could have easily been Janeway. What I said is that they didn't sell well enough to keep Margaret Clark her job, (none of the Trek novels she edited did) so yes they are failed novels. Again it has nothing to do with the quality and everything to do with the "money."

They didn't gain enough audience.

Brit

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

It's a piece of crap. If you're going to knock off a major character don't you want people to tear up, to grieve.. for it to have impact? Pocket Books blew it, and for what? So we could then have to wade through pages and pages across several books of Chakotay turning into some emo soap opera? Yeah. That's what VOY fans always wanted to read.

Soo... you don't like Before Dishonor and feel like it did a bad job. Fair enough, and you ask for that story to be couched in a Voyager tale. But the response to Full Circle has been overwhelmingly positive, so it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't?

That’s only an opinion Kestrel, the response to “Full Circle” and “Unworthy” or any of the rest of the current Trek novels were not enough to keep Margaret Clark her job, which is proof enough that although this small circle of Trek readers may have liked what was being written the reading public on a whole didn’t, so don’t try to call “Full Circle” a success when it very clearly was not.

I thought the books were okay as in, written well enough (not epic, but I don't expect that from Treklit though there have been notable exceptions). The story advanced in a pleasing way taking Voyager back to the Delta Quadrant. I liked Eden a great deal. They managed to tie up some story lines (I hope the klingon one never surfaces again) and, (the best part for me) point towards a continuation of the Borg story in Destiny.

But really, none of that has anything to do with Janeway being dead. Her being alive wouldn't have changed a thing about the series, except they would need another reason for Chakotay to have a breakdown. I think that's about all they got out of offing her, Chakotay's breakdown, which as I've said was really tedious to me. You keep pointing to Full Circle as though this proves her death was a good publishing choice.. but there is nothing about the advancement of the story that needed her death other than Chak's breakdown. I'm sure they could have found some other reason to screw him over for a couple books. Full Circle being a decent read is not a result of Janeway's death.

I want to point out that I never "asked for the story to be couched in a Voyager tale". I didn't even think of Before Dishonor as a TNG book until reading it in this thread because all the series have been blended increasingly together since Destiny. I do think that that publishing such a terribly written book was a mistake on Pocket Books part when they are seemingly trying to up the quality of Treklit.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Okay, I want the novels to bring Janeway back, and hate the way she was killed off, but honestly, Full Circle and Unworthy are wonderful continuations of the Voyager story, and this repetitive knee-jerk trashing of them is just silly.

The fact that Kirsten Beyer is writing a third Voyager novel suggests Pocket is quite happy with how the novels did, so the suggestion that they 'failed' seems to lack any basis in logical argument whatsoever.

Who is trashing them? I haven't seen anyone trashing them. As I've said I found the Chakotay emo theme really puke worthy but I still read them and like the direction they are going in. These books being enjoyed has nothing to do with Janeway's death! Her death was not necessary for these storylines at all!

 

[kimc]

Saturday Night live isn't funny.

Betty White as McGruber's Grandmother really wasn't funny.

Best of intentions however I believe.

I thought Betty White did a great job on SNL

As for why I want Janeway back it's for the simple reason that I want to read stories featuring here and I'd be willing to pay for good ones if available. In the meantime I read the free ones online.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Studio audience was brought to orgasm everytime she took the stage, and she's always a special presence but... Sometimes you roll a hard eight.

I'm watching the e4st Wing right now and they were just talking about "smart reporters" discovering the president is being a bad sausage, and CJ responds Ted Baxter could figure it out.

It's been a while since I've seen YOUNG Betty playing the part of a stunning bitchy cow pulling strips off everyone on the set of the Mary Tyler Moore Show.