Captain Kirk's death

[Miss Mess]

Was it necessary, was it well executed, or was it just a plain dumb idea?

I've seen every star trek TOS movie a million times but have never been quite brave enough to face the death of my idol in 'Generations'...

What's the general concensus?

Am i obligated, as a committed ST: TOS fan, to watch it?

 

[Whill]

Was it necessary, was it well executed, or was it just a plain dumb idea?

I've seen every star trek TOS movie a million times but have never been quite brave enough to face the death of my idol in 'Generations'...

What's the general concensus?

Am i obligated, as a committed ST: TOS fan, to watch it?

So you haven't seen the movie yet know Kirk dies. No, I don't think you are automatically obligated to watch this movie just because you are a TOS fan. I do however feel you are obligated if you are posting a thread about whether you should or not.

There is a sub-consideration to question of whether Kirk's death was "necessary". Was it necessary for what? Kirk's death was absolutely necessary for the sake of the TNG movies series. I'm a fan of both TOS and TNG, and I realize that TNG films could not have succeeded at all without the death of Kirk (see below for more).

Was it necessary to close the narrative of the character or TOS? That depends more on you. After watching TUC, how did you imagine the life of Kirk after age 60? Did you not want a definitive ending, letting the end of TUC suffice for the end of his character's narrative? Does it work for you for Kirk to just retire to the simple life, settle down and live happily ever after until the end of his days?

That doesn't work for me. The Kirk I love is an action-junky adventure hero. I think the ending of TUC is just fine and appropriate for the final voyage of Kirk and his crew on the Enterprise (A) as show in that movie. But after that I can't imagine a quiet retirement and old age for Kirk. I wanted a heroic death for my beloved hero like the one Spock got in TWOK (before coming back to life). I needed finality. What makes Kirk such a hero is not his larger-than-lifeness. It was his humanity. I felt Kirk should go out in a blaze of glory, saving millions of lives.

For the two of you out there that haven't yet seen this movie, minor general spoilers follow...

Generations actually protrays two deaths for Kirk. There is the 23rd century death that history remembers, and there is the final 24th century death that Captain Picard alone is a surviving witness to. I thought the first death that history remembers is overall more appropriate to how I envisioned the death of Kirk, and the one that works better cinematically. Kirk goes out in a blaze of glory heroically risking his life to save Scotty, Chekov, Sulu's daughter and the new Enterprise (B). His second death is the one that many fans feel doesn't quite do Kirk justice (or is not well-executed). It's not quite a blaze of glory, but Kirk does die after heroic efforts that save Picard, the entire crew and families of Enterprise-D, and the lives of (unseen) millions.

If you put Kirk's two deaths together, that about adds up to everything I expected in Kirk's demise. I feel his final death could have felt more epic, but within the structure of this story, I think it still works. If Kirk having two deaths (and a subtle suggestion that a part of Kirk will live on in a heavenly state of existance eternally) intrigues you, then you should definitely see this movie!

Below is a quote from a post of mine in a thread about Kirk's death in Generations. It does go more into the themes of the movie without giving away much detail about how it all actually happens.

The studio definitely did fear that not enough Trek film customers would accept a Trek movie series without Kirk, but the main purpose of Kirk being in the Generations wasn't really to try to turn TOS movie fans into TNG movie fans (although I'm sure they were hoping for that too). Kirk had to die for the TNG films to succeed, and I don't think that TUC would have worked if they killed off Kirk in that film. That was a retirement of the whole crew type of film that ended appropriately for that mood, a final adventure in which they start the long peace process between the UFP and the Klingons.

Kirk was there in Generations to pass officially the torch from film captain to film captain. Kirk absolutely had to die for that to fully take effect. If Kirk hadn't died then you would have had even more comparisons between the TOS and TNG movies with many fans constantly clamoring for Kirk's return. Kirk had to die to help Trek fans accept that he was gone for the sake on non-Kirk Trek. Kirk retiring and living happily ever after until the end of his days would just seem like a lame ending for such an epic hero. Kirk is dead. Whether you liked exactly how they did or not, the torch had been passed from Kirk to Picard.

With that criteria, I think they did a decent job overall. They wrote a story that incorporated themes relavent to this passing of the torch. The title of Generations not only refers to TNG as product identity. It also refers to the two different generations of starship captains whom the torch is being passed between. Since Kirk had to die, the film title also refers to a theme for Picard related to mortality: his new regret that he had never produced offspring to carry on the family history now that his only brother and nephew had died. Kirk served to help resolve Picard's sense of loss by reminding him that he was really making a difference as a starship captain, a lesson that Kirk learned in the previous Trek films after accepting promotion and feeling old and stangant without his command. This is all tied together by Picard's realization that his family history had lead him to a more important tradition, that of being an Enterprise captain. Thematically, this movie works.

Despite the fact that retirement was appropriate for the crew end of the previous film, it seems that for a character like Kirk, retirement would never do. It would make him feel old like being an admiral had. So it seems fitting that early in his retirement he heroicly sacrificed his life to save the new Enterprise. That seems a fitting death for an epic hero, at least how history remembers his death. And his first death had to be by saving the Enterprise-B, next in the generations of Enterprises after his two ships. And despite the fact that you may be disappointed by exactly how Kirk died his real final death, you have to acknowledge that at least they gave Kirk two deaths in the film. Kirk is just too big for one death!

And there was no need for Kirk to return to the Nexus anyway, because he is still there and always will be...

Remember...

There was a part of Guinan that never left the Nexus, so we can assume it is probable that there is a part of Kirk still in there too. And since there is a timeless quality to reality in the Nexus, we can assume that the Nexus-Kirk is disconnected from the physical Kirk that left, so the Nexus-Kirk lives on in the Nexus beyond the death of the physical Kirk.

Besides the echo left behind being a way that Guinan could provide guidance to Picard from within the Nexus, it also served as a subtle suggestion of a "sci-fi heaven" of sorts for Kirk to live in for all eternity. So a part of Kirk is immortal...

Please watch this movie and let us know what you think!

 

[Trek_princess]

I wish Kirk had died more heroically. For me, his death felt anti-climatic. Next to ST V, ST 7 is my least favorite of the TOS films. Captain Kirk is one of the coolest heroes ever - if he has to die, he should go out with fireworks. Generations was awkwardly handled. Spock's "death" in TWOK was a heroic death, but Kirk's death is just kind of sad.

 

[Too Much Fun]

I don't buy this whole 'he had to die to pass the torch to the next screen captain' argument. Did Captain Picard have to die on screen to pass the torch to Chris Pine's Kirk?

 

[Neutral Zone]

Like many I too am fan of Kirk, to me he was a super hero when ST first hit the screens. I think he had to die eventually but there never would be a satisfactory death to suit all fans so this way was as good as any. I always imagined that he would have gone out in a blaze of glory fightingthe Kilingons, perhaps better still saving the lives of a Kilingon planet and therefore making him the hero of those who were once his moratl enimies.

You're not committed to watch the movie, but as a ST fan I think you should or else it will feel like having a jigsaw puzzle with a piece missing.

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

I actually liked his first "death" better.. and I do think it is kind of cool that he didn't die saving the ship/galaxy once, he did it twice. That is so Kirk. He dies a hero saving the ship and goes down in history that way.. then 77 years later he reappears and dies a hero saving the galaxy.

That said, sure more heroic for the final death would have been better. I am also happy that we have Shatnerverse.

 

[22 Stars]

I'm gonna call troll on this OP, by the tone and the lack of replies to the valid comments already posted.

 

[T'Bonz]

Let me make that determination, please.

 

[T'Girl]

Most Kirk fans (like myself) know that TPTB weren't happy with the original ending and that Shatner and Stewart went back out to that mountain top to reshoot the ending, a different ending.

If you've never seen it, the original ending is vastly superior, the bridge doesn't collapse, the missile doesn't blow up killing Soran.

Picard reprograms the missile to crash a few miles away as Soran watches, then the ribbon passes harmlessly overhead as Soran reaches and jumps like a child trying to get candy off the top shelf - very satisfying.

Kirk dies on the non-collapsed bridge of his injuries, injuries received in combat, not from falling into a gully.

In the end, as Soran advances on him, Picard simply picks up and shoots Soran in the stomach with his own gun.

Picard inters Kirk under a cairn of rocks.

---

Maybe you think the re-shot version is better. The original version can be found on Youtube. Somewhere.

 

[Miss Mess]

Thanx for the feedback. Even though it's gonna kill me, I still feel the need to watch 'Generations' in order to get the full picture.
I'll get back to everyone soon.

 

[Captrek]

Was it necessary, was it well executed, or was it just a plain dumb idea?

I've seen every star trek TOS movie a million times but have never been quite brave enough to face the death of my idol in 'Generations'...

What's the general concensus?

Am i obligated, as a committed ST: TOS fan, to watch it?

This might be an interesting edit for a TOS fan: After Kirk’s first “death,” jump immediately to Kirk in the Nexus. What Picard tells Kirk about the situation may be all the exposition we need to understand the rest of the film.

If that does work well, maybe somebody could make a Kirk-oriented fanedit, not only cutting everything between Death #1 and the Nexus, but also removing any unnecessary Enterprise-D footage and reinserting the TOS-oriented deleted scenes (orbital skydiving, Chekov and Scotty mourning Kirk). Sort of a counterpoint to Kirkless Generations.

 

[FormerLurker]

Most Kirk fans (like myself) know that TPTB weren't happy with the original ending and that Shatner and Stewart went back out to that mountain top to reshoot the ending, a different ending.

If you've never seen it, the original ending is vastly superior, the bridge doesn't collapse, the missile doesn't blow up killing Soran.

Picard reprograms the missile to crash a few miles away as Soran watches, then the ribbon passes harmlessly overhead as Soran reaches and jumps like a child trying to get candy off the top shelf - very satisfying.

Kirk dies on the non-collapsed bridge of his injuries, injuries received in combat, not from falling into a gully.

In the end, as Soran advances on him, Picard simply picks up and shoots Soran in the stomach with his own gun.

Picard inters Kirk under a cairn of rocks.

---

Maybe you think the re-shot version is better. The original version can be found on Youtube. Somewhere.

I don't know in what alternate timeline you saw that, but it's not what I saw. In the original that I saw, Soran shoots Kirk like a dog. That's what upset test audiences so much they reshot it.

 

[Gorn Captain]

1. Why is this on the TOS board? When I opened the thread I thought it was going to be about the Tholian Web or the Enterprise Incident, or Amok Time. A TOS Kirk "death", in other words.

2. Having made that obligatory pseudo complaint, I think the necessity of Kirk's death is questionable at best. I would agree that IF Kirk were to appear in Generations, killing him might lend some finality to the old crew and help a transition to the TNG crew.

However, I don't think that it was an absolute need. TNG premiered on tv in 1987. So from that point until 1994, we were left to wonder what happened to Kirk. We knew McCoy was still alive in the 24th century. We knew by 1991 that Spock was alive, even Mr. Scott by 1992's TNG episode, "Relics".

Did not knowing Kirk's fate between whatever the most recent TOS movie and the TNG era bother me? Maybe, but only because to me the heart of Star Trek is Kirk, Spock and McCoy on the Enterprise. Still, it didn't take away my enjoyment of TNG. I mean, who watched the Enterprise D's first encounter with the Borg and said, "This is awesome! But dammit, what happened to Captain Kirk?!?"

 

[JonnyQuest037]

It was a bad idea that was badly executed. I do my best not to think of it, and if I could un-see that movie, I would.

 

[T'Girl]

Most Kirk fans (like myself) know that TPTB weren't happy with the original ending and that Shatner and Stewart went back out to that mountain top to reshoot the ending, a different ending.

If you've never seen it, the original ending is vastly superior, the bridge doesn't collapse, the missile doesn't blow up killing Soran.

Picard reprograms the missile to crash a few miles away as Soran watches, then the ribbon passes harmlessly overhead as Soran reaches and jumps like a child trying to get candy off the top shelf - very satisfying.

Kirk dies on the non-collapsed bridge of his injuries, injuries received in combat, not from falling into a gully.

In the end, as Soran advances on him, Picard simply picks up and shoots Soran in the stomach with his own gun.

Picard inters Kirk under a cairn of rocks.

The original version can be found on Youtube. Somewhere.

I don't know in what alternate timeline you saw that, but it's not what I saw. In the original that I saw, Soran shoots Kirk like a dog. That's what upset test audiences so much they reshot it.

Kirk is injured as part of his fight scene with Soran, and yes you'd think Kirk would know better than to turn his back on a supposed vanquished enemy.

Where is Kirk "shot like a dog?'

While the test audiences might not have liked Kirk being shot in the back, it was more squeeky clean Picard simply shooting Soran that resulted in the ending being reshot.

I still feel that the original is superior and Kirk's death is "better." I apologize for the quality, there are a few of these floating around, this cleaned up version is the best I could find, other versions are worse.



[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBoGjEr2H8[/yt]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enBoGjEr2H8

Perhaps what you remember FormerLurker is some fan produced video you saw once?

1. Why is this on the TOS board?

Because James T. Kirk is a TOS character.

 

[Whill]

Thanks for sharing, T'Girl! After recently watching Generations and just now watching that alternate ending, I like the one we got in the final film better. I'm not saying that either death really reflects my full ideals for Kirk's final death. And I'm not comparing only the deaths. I'm just saying that overall, the revised ending is better for the movie as a whole, IMHO. I don't really give a damn about the test audiance's opinion, but here I have to agree that I didn't like Kirk getting shot in the back either. Too Billy the Kid. And I think it is more appropriate that Soren gets blown up by his own weapon than just shot by Picard after the weapon misfires and the Nexus flies by overhead. The final ending we got has better dramatic pacing and is more cinematic. But I admit that is with respect to my criteria as a both a TOS, TNG and film fan in general. What's best for the film as a whole is most important to me.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

As movie deaths go, it'll do.

 

[sbk1234]

I agree completely with WHill's views.
For me, since it seemed so appropriate that Kirk should have had a "true hero's death," and he didn't really get one, that made his death even more tragic, therefore increasing the drama and emotion of the sequence.

 

[drychlick]

i do not like his real death too! let him got out fighting love dr

 

[Dukhat]

I just watched the Youtube video of the original ending (I had never seen it before), and I have to say, contrary to T'Girl's opinion, that it was truly a crappy ending. I got bored of the overlong and silly fight scene about 30 seconds into it, the old "pull an extra little gun out of my boot" schtick was incredibly stupid, Picard takes forever to do whatever he was doing with the rocket, Soran's jumping up and down to try to reach the Nexus is just pathetic, and when Soran finally realizes that he's lost and starts yelling at Picard, Picard simply shoots him dead. Huh? That's it?