THe Sorrows of Empire - Expanded version

[Christopher]

Of course Starfleet is the military. They're the people the government lets fire the guns in war.

Yes, technically Starfleet is the defensive force of the Federation, but its officers are primarily scientists and diplomats, not warriors. So it stands to reason that they'd be trained in a way that nurtured their individuality and self-respect rather than breaking them down psychologically with institutionalized bullying so they can be molded into obedient grunts. Indeed, not every military today uses such harsh tactics. Just because America does it, that doesn't automatically mean it's the right or the only way to do it.

 

[Dayton Ward]

^ No, I'm not taking offense to that. Not at all.

 

[RonG]

Jus finished The Sorrows of Empire today.. yet another solid Mack novel .

I never read the original version (matter of fact, Trek TPBs are virtually non-existant here in Israel, as opposed to the MMPBs, which arrive in bookstores a bit late but fairly regularly..), so I didn't have a basis for comparison.

All in all, a great novel, with just the right amount of tips-of-the-hat and homages. The ending was (as intended, obviously) bittersweet, and had an tragically-epic quality to it.

Now we just have to wait for Rise Like Lions, eh?

 

[JD]

From earlier in the thread:

Well, according to David Mack Rise Like Lions is only a possibility, not a 100% certainty. Here's a quote from the thread devoted to that topic.

^ Well, this is where I mea culpa: I was supposed to take that out at editing and I forgot.

Bottom line: though I have proposed such a project, it has not yet been approved by CBS or Pocket or in any way contracted for. When I wrote the About the Author page on the expanded version of The Sorrows of Empire, neither I nor Margaret had any idea she was soon to be laid off, and she had been keen to acquire Rise Like Lions.

It's my hope I will get to move forward on the project this year, but this is a case in which I, quite simply, spoke too soon. I apologize to my readers, and to my editors and publisher for the confusion.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I'm holding out hope that we'll get to see RLL. I'm assuming Mr. Mack still wants to write it, and that's all the reassurance I need. And given the optimistic title, I'm guessing that it turns out all right in the end.

 

[JD]

I just finished the book last night. I already liked the original version, but I really feel the new content just took it up to a whole other level. I really liked the way it spread the focus to other characters than just Spock, I especially liked the added character development for Carol Marcus, and the addition of the Vanguard material. I'm huge fan of Vanguard, so anytime it's tied into another series or books, I'm very happy.

 

[Cap'n Crunch]

I really enjoyed the original The Sorrows of Empire. The expanded version was even better. I read the expanded novel not too long after the original because I wanted to be able to tell what was new. At first I was a bit worried that it would seem repetitive reading the two so close together, but it wasn't. The original material was distributed evenly enough that it was almost like reading a whole new novel. I liked the Vanguard material that was added. I may get Shards and Shadows sooner than I would have so that I can find out more about mirror Vanguard.

There was one minor difference I noticed and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why it was changed. In the original, the assassin's armor is made out of ultritium, but in the expanded version it was trilithium. It's just such a small change and it doesn't really matter, but it did bring me out of the story (just a little) because I kept trying to figure out why it was changed.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Trilithium is an explosive, innit?

 

[captcalhoun]

yes. so's ultritium.

 

[David Mack]

^ At the time I made the change, I was certain I had a good reason. Now, however, I can't recall what it was. It might have been that I'd established in the first Vanguard novel that ultritium was a known explosive in 2365 (in the prime Star Trek universe). Because the Empire would likely have a means to detect known compounds, I changed it to another typically associated with a later time period, to imply that this was something new which would evade the 23rd-century sensors of the Terran Empire.

 

[Christopher]

^I think you mean 2265.

 

[Rowan Sjet]

Well if it's known in 2265, then surely it will be known in 2365 as well. So it's still accurate.

 

[Rat Boy]

After months of not being able to find this book in California, I finally stumbled across it while on vacation in Pennsylvania. Certainly helped pass the time on the flight back. Mack the Knife's in rare form here.

 

[Corran Horn]

One odd thing I've noticed in the MU. It seems like while circumstances came together such that neither Jake nor the O'Brien children were born in the MU, our mirror heroes were lucky enough that none of those things got in the way of *their* parents having kids.

The Terran population definitely would've started declining post-Alliance. I presume that Spock's assassination and the fall of the Empire/Republic would have happened long before Sisko (well, bad example, his birth was engineered by the Prophets), Bashir, and O'Brien were even born making it possible that they'd have never been born.

 

[Snaploud]

I find it interesting that Bashir was either born without any mental disabilities or that his parents still found a way to get him genetic intervention.

 

[Corran Horn]

I find it interesting that Bashir was either born without any mental disabilities or that his parents still found a way to get him genetic intervention.

Hmm. I thought I'd read in the DS9 Companion that he was played as if he was just 'normal' Jules all growed up.

 

[Snaploud]

I find it interesting that Bashir was either born without any mental disabilities or that his parents still found a way to get him genetic intervention.

Hmm. I thought I'd read in the DS9 Companion that he was played as if he was just 'normal' Jules all growed up.

It's possible. The description of Jules (from Julian's parents) seemed to indicate an individual with severe mental disabilities. They could have been over-reacting, but it's unlikely the person described could have become as high-functioning as seen in the MU universe (without medical intervention).

Perhaps MU Jule's parents worked with the enemy and got medical improvements for their child in exchange (just enough to become "normal")...

 

[Christopher]

Or maybe it's like how Eureka recently justified Kevin not being autistic in the altered timeline: his condition was the result of a variety of both genetic and environmental factors, so if events had been different, the disability might not have occurred.

And Mirror-Bashir couldn't have been played as pre-engineered "Jules" all grown up, because the idea of Bashir being genetically engineered wasn't devised until a few seasons after we met Mirror-Bashir.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Perhaps MU Jule's parents worked with the enemy and got medical improvements for their child in exchange (just enough to become "normal")...

In the RU, Richard Bashir is kind of a layabout, never lasting too long at any one job. His MU counterpart could be the opposite - a very powerful (for a Terran) official who had a lot of clout and could get the treatments whenever he wanted.

 

[Corran Horn]

Or maybe it's like how Eureka recently justified Kevin not being autistic in the altered timeline: his condition was the result of a variety of both genetic and environmental factors, so if events had been different, the disability might not have occurred.

And Mirror-Bashir couldn't have been played as pre-engineered "Jules" all grown up, because the idea of Bashir being genetically engineered wasn't devised until a few seasons after we met Mirror-Bashir.

The actor mentions in the DS9 Companion that he imagined Jules was not genetically engineered in a commentary on one of the episodes...he must've been retcon'ing it I guess.