Is the Star Wars saga better with Episodes I to III or worse?

[FluffyUnbound]

Reading the thread makes it clear that quite a few people have a big, big problem with the character of Anakin - his arc, his depiction, the actors used to portray him.

And that made me think of a question.

It seems pretty clear that the PT focuses on Anakin in the way that it does because Lucas conceived it as the reverse of the story of Luke. And my question is: Am I the only one who never really liked Luke all that much?

I think the success of the OT made Lucas think that the audience really liked its "Scrawny Whiny Blonde Kid Makes Good" story, and he therefore concluded that contrasting that with a "Scrawny Whiny Blond Kid Turns Out Bad" story in the PT would work. And that really dreadful "insight" gave us the casting decisions, the story arc, the whiny dialogue, etc.

In other words, Lucas made Anakin into a little wuss because he thought we liked Luke as a little wuss.

Personally, given the story he chose to tell I wish Lucas had started making the PT as soon as RTJ left theatres. If he had done that, Christian Bale would have been the right age to play Anakin in all three films [depending on how you spaced the releases] and that was pretty much the only thing that could have saved the PT.

 

[JarodRussell]

What the prequels especially lacked was a normal human being. It was all about Jedis and Sith and Droids, and every fight scene turned into an hour long battle with people jumping hundreds of meters into the air doing crazy shit nobody else could be doing in the real world. They even made R2 D2 fucking fly!!!

It simply lacked down to earth characters like Han, Lando, Leia that got into down to earth action.

 

[Gaith]

To say that "only one" actor could have saved the PT is absurd.

And yes, we liked Luke, because he had a compelling character arc with good dialogue and clear motivations. We never had to put up with crap like wondering why, after he'd earned the gratitude of the queen of a bloody planet, he couldn't have arranged for someone to buy his mother out of frickin' slavery, with a nice pension somewhere.

Because the OT movies were inherently good, not lamefests to endlessly rationalize over, apologize and make excuses for.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

To say that "only one" actor could have saved the PT is absurd.

Lucas made the decision to build his story around a child actor [in the first movie] and a teenage character [in the second].

In the post-1983 time frame, the list of child actors who didn't instantly make everything they were in unwatchable is very short.

It's even shorter if the audience has to buy in to the idea that the kid is smart and talented.

I can think of two or three in that time frame, tops, who could have salvaged the Jake Lloyd role: Christian Bale, Max Pirkis, Haley Joe Osment. Of those three, only Bale could then have transitioned to adult Anakin credibly. So, yeah, to me that means the prequels were always doomed without that one actor, unless there was some great undiscovered child actor talent out there we've never seen.

 

[davejames]

What the prequels especially lacked was a normal human being. It was all about Jedis and Sith and Droids, and every fight scene turned into an hour long battle with people jumping hundreds of meters into the air doing crazy shit nobody else could be doing in the real world. They even made R2 D2 fucking fly!!!

It simply lacked down to earth characters like Han, Lando, Leia that got into down to earth action.

Agreed. There was no one whatsoever that you could identify with in those movies.

Personally I always felt that Obi-wan should have been the "Han" of the prequels. You could always sense that he was much more of a fun, rebellious type in his youth, who probably wasn't the model Jedi everyone wanted him to be. I imagined him and Anakin as being almost the Butch and Sundance of the SW universe.

Unfortunately Lucas instisted on making every last Jedi a dull, lifeless stick in the mud. And Obi-wan was probably the most boring one of all. Despite being so many years younger, he was still talking and acting like an 80-year old.

 

[Gaith]

unless there was some great undiscovered child actor talent out there we've never seen.

There's always great talent out there for those powerful and bold enough to look for it.

 

[ALF]

I didn't notice much of a difference, we saw so very little of the Empire in the OT I'm not sure how people can make that claim in the first place.

It's quite obvious. In the PT, everything is clean and fresh looking, while in the OT, everything is dirtier, and more "lived in" looking. Watch the series again and you'll see it.

Besbin looked pretty clean to me and so did the Death Star, the Falcon looked worn but that was part of it's charm.

Besbin & The Death Star - both on the payroll of The Empire.
Falcon - private property of Han Solo, smuggler.

Personally I always felt that Obi-wan should have been the "Han" of the prequels. You could always sense that he was much more of a fun, rebellious type in his youth, who probably wasn't the model Jedi everyone wanted him to be. I imagined him and Anakin as being almost the Butch and Sundance of the SW universe.

Yes, I could sense a bit of this... I think it would have come across a lot better if it was done properly.

 

[DarKush]

Fluffy Unbound bought up an interesting idea when they described Anakin and Luke's arcs. But I disagree that Anakin's arc was the reverse of Luke's. I think it would've made the prequels better if Anakin's arc actually was a reverse of Luke's instead of sort of starting out like Luke's but then getting mangled along the way.

I think the films should have started out with Anakin already a Jedi instead of yearning to be one or yearning for adventure or escape like Luke did. Of course, Anakin did have the desire to be free, so his yearnings had more weight behind them IMO, though Jake Lloyd's acting was so wooden that it didn't feel that way. Anyway, I think the arc should've been Anakin already a Jedi and slowly descending, as he realizes he wants more, that he doesn't like living the Jedi code, that he wants to be selfish, that he wants things for himself, etc. Luke started out a little selfish and became selfless. Anakin should have been the opposite, but I think GL couldn't allow Anakin to be a an anti-hero or full-fledged villain until the very end, and then he had to rush it.

I also agree with Jarod Russell that there were no down-to-earth characters in the PT. If anything, it should've been Anakin. Of course the PT was dealing with Jedi, Chancellors, and Princesses and Senators, so there was going to be more formality than the OT's band of rebels. But still it would've been nice to have characters that felt more like they had a pulse. Especially in TPM, GL had them playing so cold and lifeless, particuarly Amidala that it was hard accepting the much more warm person in AOTC.

 

[DWF]

It's quite obvious. In the PT, everything is clean and fresh looking, while in the OT, everything is dirtier, and more "lived in" looking. Watch the series again and you'll see it.

Besbin looked pretty clean to me and so did the Death Star, the Falcon looked worn but that was part of it's charm.

Besbin & The Death Star - both on the payroll of The Empire.
Falcon - private property of Han Solo, smuggler.

Not really Besbin we're trold by Lando was too small of an operation to be noticed by the Empire. Still as I said waht little we see of the Empire is clean.

 

[Admiral_Young]

As we found out though Lando was lying to Han when he said Besbin was too small of an operation for the Empire to find since they did and he made the deal with Vader.

 

[DWF]

As we found out though Lando was lying to Han when he said Besbin was too small of an operation for the Empire to find since they did and he made the deal with Vader.

No he wasn't lying, Boba Fett followed the Falcon to Besbin and told the Empire where they headed. Since the Falcon didn't have hyperdrive it was pretty easy for the Empire to get there ahead of them and make th edeal that Lando was talking about.

 

[FluffyUnbound]

Fluffy Unbound bought up an interesting idea when they described Anakin and Luke's arcs. But I disagree that Anakin's arc was the reverse of Luke's. I think it would've made the prequels better if Anakin's arc actually was a reverse of Luke's instead of sort of starting out like Luke's but then getting mangled along the way.

I think the films should have started out with Anakin already a Jedi instead of yearning to be one or yearning for adventure or escape like Luke did. Of course, Anakin did have the desire to be free, so his yearnings had more weight behind them IMO, though Jake Lloyd's acting was so wooden that it didn't feel that way. Anyway, I think the arc should've been Anakin already a Jedi and slowly descending, as he realizes he wants more, that he doesn't like living the Jedi code, that he wants to be selfish, that he wants things for himself, etc. Luke started out a little selfish and became selfless. Anakin should have been the opposite, but I think GL couldn't allow Anakin to be a an anti-hero or full-fledged villain until the very end, and then he had to rush it.

I agree.

I think the best available Anakin arc, assuming Lucas didn't mind plagiarizing, was probably the Lawrence of Arabia arc, darkened up a little further and given a sci-fi gloss.

You start the character out as someone with a lot of talent, who feels underutilized by the Jedi system. When the Separatist conflict starts, he gets opportunities to display his talents, and discovers that he really, really likes them and loves the conflict itself. And then the Dark Side snatches him - because he tries to use it to enhance his powers, since he now loves the fight more than the cause.

It's a classic arc and it also neatly avoids undermining the future character of Darth Vader.

 

[davejames]

If nothing else, watching the utterly annoying young Anakin in the prequels suddenly makes me appreciate Luke and Mark Hamill's performance even more. He gets a bad rap sometimes, but he at least created a likeable character that you could kind of identify with. And you really believed the journey that he took from young, whiny kid to mature Jedi.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Not to mention another problem I have with the prequels is Anakin and Padme's romance. Not that he met her when he was 9 and she was 14...that Padme fell in love with a whiny, spoiled brat who admitted that he slaughtered dozens of people out of grief and revenge for killing his mother. I'm not sure if Padme just didn't understand what he meant or if she was being naive and just saw past that and thought it was some kind of blip? Then because he's already been corrupted and poisoned by Palpatine he threatens to kill the woman he loves more than life it's self because his jealously and corrupted sense of possession allows him to believe that Obi-Wan and Anakin are having an affair...oh and this is just after he agrees to learn the dark side so that he can use that power to save her from dying! Just Lucas's inconsistency with his writing leaves one wondering.

What I like about the Clone Wars series from what I've seen along with the movie is that Anakin seems to be portrayed and written the way that Lucas intended him to be but for whatever reason wasn't able to execute. Anakin is confident, brash, clever, skilled, moderately reckless but so far I've seen no signs of the arrogant, whiny brat he was in the films. He's actually very likable. Even Obi-Wan's characterization has been more fleshed out. Perhaps it's the very nature of having actual episodes to be allowed to do this but I don't see why either character couldn't be handled this way in the actual films.

 

[davejames]

Not to mention another problem I have with the prequels is Anakin and Padme's romance. Not that he met her when he was 9 and she was 14...that Padme fell in love with a whiny, spoiled brat who admitted that he slaughtered dozens of people out of grief and revenge for killing his mother. I'm not sure if Padme just didn't understand what he meant or if she was being naive and just saw past that and thought it was some kind of blip? Then because he's already been corrupted and poisoned by Palpatine he threatens to kill the woman he loves more than life it's self because his jealously and corrupted sense of possession allows him to believe that Obi-Wan and Anakin are having an affair...oh and this is just after he agrees to learn the dark side so that he can use that power to save her from dying! Just Lucas's inconsistency with his writing leaves one wondering.

I'm sure Lucas probably felt he was making Anakin into some sort of dangerous "bad boy" type that Padme would be attracted to.

But clearly he didn't have a clue in how to create such a character. lol

 

[Aragorn]

Don't forget how absolutely wasted Natalie Portman was in the third movie. Her only purpose was to give birth and die, and Lucas couldn't even write her a credible reason for death!

I like the prequels, they're nothing special but they're not White Chicks or Jonah Hex either. But their existence doesn't change anything about the original trilogy. Lethal Weapon 4 doesn't take away from Lethal Weapon.

 

[Silvercrest]

Anakin is confident, brash, clever, skilled, moderately reckless but so far I've seen no signs of the arrogant, whiny brat he was in the films. He's actually very likable. Even Obi-Wan's characterization has been more fleshed out. Perhaps it's the very nature of having actual episodes to be allowed to do this but I don't see why either character couldn't be handled this way in the actual films.

We got a quick look at a likable Anakin during the aerial battle on Coruscant, at the beginning of ROTS. And that was the only time.

 

[Base_Delta_Zero]

As for the looks, you could argue that Tatooine was a criminal haven, the Falcon was a smuggling vessel, and Hoth and Yavin were shoestring outposts of desperate Rebels on the run and Dagobah is a swampy mudhole. All the spiffy looking places are Bespin, an independent operation not involved in the civil war, and the Star Destroyers and Death Stars, run by the Empire.

The prequel locations were almost exclusively high-property value planets untouched by war and starships of the rich and famous.

Not that I want to defend the Prequels or anything. I still think the PT should have had a better mix of lived-in and spiffy locales. It was way too CG-clean and plastic, but whatever.

------

I'll second the Lawrence of Arabia storyline for Anakin in place of what we got or even the starting as a pinnacle Jedi and falling steadily from there idea mentioned. Frankly, anything other than the ridiculous annoying kid - whiny bitch - stalker asshole - serial killer progression we got.

And I was definitely hoping for Obi-Wan to be the Han Solo of the PT when I saw those first previews. No truly likable/relatable non-wanktastic character to experience the story with was a huge handicap.

End result, while the PT is essentially an abomination and I voted worse in the poll, there are some cool tech/visual/character additions I enjoyed. Not so much I wouldn't be willing to erase them and have Lucas and Co. start from scratch, though.

 

[DarKush]

I've never seen Lawrence of Arabia, but from Fluffy Unbound's description, I like the analogy.

Also, I agree with the criticisms about the portrayal of Anakin and Padme's relationship. It was way too plot driven. I'm sorry, but the relationship did a disservice to Padme's character. In TPM, she was cold and remote, but a steely warrior princess willing to sacrifice all for her people. Padme was a fighter. She remained a fighter in AOTC, but I think her judgment went out the window with Anakin.

I still can't buy that crap about it's 'human to be angry' in regards to his confession of mass murder. Yeah, being angry is human, but there are different ways to handle it than to kill a whole village. She had her blinders on way too much for someone who was a planetary leader and also a galactic Senator. I think the character was well versed in emotional control and restraint to allow 'love' to cloud her judgment so badly. And she was wasted in ROTS. From the strong Padme we saw in TPM and to some extent in AOTC, I don't see her ever dying of a broken heart. That was just too hokey. Padme would've clung to life to protect her children and to try to redeem Anakin. I think GL punked out on having Anakin straight up murder Padme.

One idea I thought might've helped that situation was to have Padme start out not as a princess but as a Jedi, on the same level as Anakin. And he mortally wounds her in lightsaber combat before the Duel with Obi-Wan.

 

[davejames]

End result, while the PT is essentially an abomination and I voted worse in the poll, there are some cool tech/visual/character additions I enjoyed. Not so much I wouldn't be willing to erase them and have Lucas and Co. start from scratch, though.

Yeah, to me the real shame of the whole thing is how many fantastic new designs and creatures and planets were completely wasted in those movies.

Darth Maul and his double-bladed lightsaber, the rolling Destroyer Droids, the beasts at the end of AOTC, Jango Fett, the yellow Naboo fighters...

All extremely cool stuff.