But, Kirk was talking about allowing the Klingon race to go extinct. Spock had not mercy for a ship full genocidal maniacs.
NuKirk as reflective and literate as original Kirk?
- Thread starter Cadet49
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Yeah, what a witty remark! Supremely funny! I'm laughing so hard!
Or not.
Yeah, what a witty remark! Supremely funny! I'm laughing so hard!
Or not.
LOL.
Yet he did have mercy for a ship like that in "Arena."
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Note Spocks face when Kirk says "Let them die". A combination of disbelief and disapproval.
And in regards to the Klingons versus a ship of Romulans, think back to Picard in Insurrection. At what point does it become OK to kill a helpless enemy? A million? A thousand? One? Where do you draw the line?
And in regards to the Klingons versus a ship of Romulans, think back to Picard in Insurrection. At what point does it become OK to kill a helpless enemy? A million? A thousand? One? Where do you draw the line?
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That scene became infamous because Meyer cut away from Kirk's own reaction, which was surprise at his own words. It's still in the novel, though.
Good point. And the answer is: NEVER. Murder is murder. Whether you kill a murderer or an innocent bystander makes no difference.
Killing Nero in cold blood (it was an execution really) was the biggest un-Trek moment of this movie (but yeah the audience liked it blabla, and that's all what counts yadada, I know).
kkozoriz1
Fleet Captain
Compare Kirk's cut reaction with KuKirk's approval. He's apparently glad that Spock's so willing to execute Nero. I really had trouble with how they portrayed NuKirk.
They could have had Nero redeem himself a bit by allowing Kirk to save his crew while allowing himself to die.
But, Kirk did not say kill them. Kirk said let them die. Kind of reminds me of that Enterprise episode where Phlox would not save a race that was going extinct due to natural causes. And they were subjugating their successors.The Klingons were going to go extinct due to their own stupidity. They clearly had subjugated hundreds of worlds. Yet the Federation chose to help them. How much of that is because it is the right thing to do and how much is to prevent the damage that would occur before they died out? Unlike the species from Enterprise, the Klingons have warp drive.
As for the Narada, Spock was obviously traumatized. Kirk still offered to help. It was over kill for him to open fire on them once it was clear they could not escape.
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Yes, for me anyway, Star Trek is more than just the sets and the characters, though that all comes together in the mix. It is also the values and attitudes and usually a willingness to resolve moral issues.
By the way, I'm not sure we can assume Nero and co are dead. We don't see the Narada exploding. The tentacled "crumple zone" takes a hit or two, but the ship just seems to disappear down the rabbit hole, more or less in one piece. Maybe they were keeping their options open for a sequel if Nero was received well enough? Though I doubt that will happen now personally.
Edit:
Sorry, missed your post:
True, but the problem is it doesn't look like that's why Kirk opened fire.
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Nice idea, but the Abramsverse is only 25 years old. Still, you never know with red matter I guess.
Edit: Silly me, I see what you mean!
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Yeah, what a witty remark! Supremely funny! I'm laughing so hard!
Or not.
Obviously, no wit is required to get a
out of Zim. Any insult to the film, no matter how witless or stupid, will do the trick.And you know what? He’s right. The film is a worthless bag of filth. It’s a canker, an open wound. I would rather kiss a Laker than watch it again. It’s a putrescent mass, spineless claptrap deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. It is a monument to stupidity. It is a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon. I will never get over the embarrassment of being a fan of TV series and films that are part of the same franchise as that malformity. I barf at the very thought of it. It has all the appeal of a paper cut. Even Mike and the ’bots can’t sit through it. It’s vile, worthless, less than nothing. It’s a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. It is a technicolor yawn. Did I mention that it smells?
Etc....
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Yup - it pandered to the movie-going public's thirst for blood and vengeance - a really nasty moment. At least if the dialogue had provided a more palatable excuse, such as 'Gravitational fluctuations are preventing us from transporting off the crew but we cannot take the risk that the vessel will survive a trip through a wormhole.' Instead we had self-satisfied smugness - a really unappealing attitude to an execution and, in fact, the kind of attitude that leads to war crimes in the 'real world'.
Cmdr Straker
Ensign
Obviously, no wit is required to get a
And you know what? He’s right. The film is a worthless bag of filth. It’s a canker, an open wound. I would rather kiss a Laker than watch it again. It’s a putrescent mass, spineless claptrap deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. It is a monument to stupidity. It is a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon. I will never get over the embarrassment of being a fan of TV series and films that are part of the same franchise as that malformity. I barf at the very thought of it. It has all the appeal of a paper cut. Even Mike and the ’bots can’t sit through it. It’s vile, worthless, less than nothing. It’s a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. It is a technicolor yawn. Did I mention that it smells?
Etc....
I never heard a more accurate description of the Abramsverse in my life.
(Yes, I know it was sarcasm. But true nevertheless)Actually, interpretations here have varied as to Kirk's reaction. It would be appreciated if you didn't present that as fact.
I'd still like a screen-cap of Kirk's "self-satisfied smugness" since I'm disinclined to look it up myself and I recall (quite possibly erroneously) more of an expression of "grim determination".
And really, we're talking about Kirk getting the chance to dish out some whoop-ass on the guy who killed his father. Give him some damn credit for at least offering to rescue Nero first, since I doubt most movie-goers would have cared if that had been omitted.
I'm very tired of people pouncing on any perceived character weaknesses while conveniently ignoring anything that might discredit their opinions. I suppose people were hoping these characters would reflect the idealism of TNG instead...you know, that series that's set further in the future and that often receives criticism for portraying unrealistically perfect humans.
"You got it" was the line Kirk used when Nero said he'd rather die. The line was delivered with a ton of smugness. Sorry.
I have a hard time believing Kirk would have a thirst to avenge someone he'd never met. Spock was the one with the real axe to grind against Nero and his men.
Obviously, no wit is required to get a
And you know what? He’s right. The film is a worthless bag of filth. It’s a canker, an open wound. I would rather kiss a Laker than watch it again. It’s a putrescent mass, spineless claptrap deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. It is a monument to stupidity. It is a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon. I will never get over the embarrassment of being a fan of TV series and films that are part of the same franchise as that malformity. I barf at the very thought of it. It has all the appeal of a paper cut. Even Mike and the ’bots can’t sit through it. It’s vile, worthless, less than nothing. It’s a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. It is a technicolor yawn. Did I mention that it smells?
Etc....
I never heard a more accurate description of the Abramsverse in my life.
If you don't like the film ignore it instead of going on about the same stuff over and over again for a year like an obsessed masochist.
I didn't realize you'd have to actually have known your father to want to punish the person who killed him...oh, and billions of other people...
Actually I'd rather that the characters are not perfect, although Enterprise got the mix of flaws largely wrong in my view, flawed heroes are usually more fun. I'm also a flag waver for the 'Han shot first' faction.
I accept that our interpretations of the characters' motives are subjective but that would also be true of any crew watching the situation unfold - 400+ people are on the ship with views as diverse as the fans no doubt. Both Kirk and Spock have reason to hate Nero. Spock might even get a pass because his race has to suppress intense emotions and he's just lost both his mother and his planet - his rage could be irepressible. However, that does then paint this as a revenge killing or execution with personal motives and that is not something that should really be condoned with Federation era ideals. If so many fans have serious concerns about the motives of this execution, I think it's arguable that many of the crew of the ship would too - yet that is brushed under the carpet in favour of rapid promotion.
Obviously, I am viewing the Federation through rose-tinted spectacles (the Menagerie involved the death penalty for disobeying an order!) and obviously the writing reflects the times that the script is written. I think fans are just a bit worried that our modern society is moving toward an understanding that violence or revenge are rarely the answer e.g. in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan, while the Federation is being painted as an institution that professes high ideals that can be arbitrarily enforced down the barrel of a gun. It's too reminiscent of the Iraq debacle for my tastes and seems at odds with many ideals of the TOS episodes (although it was often Spock that had to remind Kirk of less violent alternatives I suppose).
I think it's been discussed on other threads that stressing in dialogue that Nero was still a threat or explaining the risks of his surviving another trip through time might have mitigated against the impression given.
I accept that our interpretations of the characters' motives are subjective but that would also be true of any crew watching the situation unfold - 400+ people are on the ship with views as diverse as the fans no doubt. Both Kirk and Spock have reason to hate Nero. Spock might even get a pass because his race has to suppress intense emotions and he's just lost both his mother and his planet - his rage could be irepressible. However, that does then paint this as a revenge killing or execution with personal motives and that is not something that should really be condoned with Federation era ideals. If so many fans have serious concerns about the motives of this execution, I think it's arguable that many of the crew of the ship would too - yet that is brushed under the carpet in favour of rapid promotion.
Obviously, I am viewing the Federation through rose-tinted spectacles (the Menagerie involved the death penalty for disobeying an order!) and obviously the writing reflects the times that the script is written. I think fans are just a bit worried that our modern society is moving toward an understanding that violence or revenge are rarely the answer e.g. in the Middle East, Northern Ireland, or Afghanistan, while the Federation is being painted as an institution that professes high ideals that can be arbitrarily enforced down the barrel of a gun. It's too reminiscent of the Iraq debacle for my tastes and seems at odds with many ideals of the TOS episodes (although it was often Spock that had to remind Kirk of less violent alternatives I suppose).
I think it's been discussed on other threads that stressing in dialogue that Nero was still a threat or explaining the risks of his surviving another trip through time might have mitigated against the impression given.
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