Most of what I've seen of Torchwood was/is crap, but Children of Earth was good.
Torchwood Sucks
- Thread starter Freakness
- Start date
I would have agreed with this before Children of Earth. Seasons one and two were trying too hard to be Angel, but weren't nearly as good. It was just juvenile. 'Look at us, we say rude words and show people doing naughty things, eh, eh?' It was like hormonal teenagers were writing it. Children of Earth toned this down a lot, and it was a lot better.
doubleohfive
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Children of Earth is, imho, phenomenal. I've not seen anything else of Torchwood beyond whatever references are made on Doctor Who, or whenever Jack shows up but CoE was simply outstanding, nonetheless.
It's also brutal, punishing and heartwrenching, so don't go in expecting flowers and lollipops.
It's also brutal, punishing and heartwrenching, so don't go in expecting flowers and lollipops.
Torchwood wasn't brilliant television at first. It'd definitely fly with an American audience. I feel that it stumbled at the start, started to get it's footing with Season 2, and finally grew into its own with season 3. I don't know about S4, now that I know that BBC Worldwide is handling it with an American network.
But I want it to have moments where I'm as uncomfortable as I was watching CoE. The good kind of uncomfortable. The 'wow' moment.
But I want it to have moments where I'm as uncomfortable as I was watching CoE. The good kind of uncomfortable. The 'wow' moment.
Since the thread did get necro'd, I feel it's not a bad thing to post in. The first episode of Season 1 was lackluster enough to not continue watching the series (I didn't hear great things, though). Season 2, I only caught towards the end and I noticed a trend of improvement. Then I watched Children of Earth, which was absolutely amazing.
This thread was before Children of Earth. Many people who posted in here were not optimistic that it would turn out to be good. I'm curious if the miniseries changed anyone's minds?
This thread was before Children of Earth. Many people who posted in here were not optimistic that it would turn out to be good. I'm curious if the miniseries changed anyone's minds?
I'm not a Doctor Who fan but I've enjoyed all three series of Torchwood. It doesn't feel as campy as the new DW does to me. I thought Children of Earth was great, but I also thought the first two series were pretty good. I thought the character development was good, most of the stories were as well, and I liked the unpredictability. TW didn't seem to be afraid to take chances and that was refreshing. The FX weren't bad for the most part either, though there were times it could've been better.
I watched all of Torchwood, but stuck it out mainly because I wanted to keep up with Jack's continuity for the sake of Doctor Who. Honestly, I disliked almost every minute of the first two seasons, with few exceptions.
But "Children of Earth" ...
Wow. Those five episodes were all that were needed to justify the first two seasons. I liked "Children of Earth" with about the same intensity I disliked the rest of Torchwood. Now I'm looking forward to Series 4.
And I'm very curious why I saw no discussion about Rasillon's gauntlet vs. the Resurrection Gauntlet.
But "Children of Earth" ...
Wow. Those five episodes were all that were needed to justify the first two seasons. I liked "Children of Earth" with about the same intensity I disliked the rest of Torchwood. Now I'm looking forward to Series 4.
And I'm very curious why I saw no discussion about Rasillon's gauntlet vs. the Resurrection Gauntlet.
^I've been thinking of writing a proper review, if I do you can read that.
From the notes I made on Ep 1, I can tell you that for me it really comes down to a mixture of its forboding tone (which admitedly will not work for everyone), some good performances (and in Frobisher's case, very good), much higher quality of writing from RTD than I am used to and really adept & slick direction (esp camera dir).
With the sense of dread/forboding it's just one of those thing not everyone will 'get' everytime. The other day I watched The Moonbase for the umpteenth time and finally realised how tense and unnerving it really is, which must have been even more effective on young viewers at the time. Sometimes these things just work, and when they do they really suck you into a story...
From the notes I made on Ep 1, I can tell you that for me it really comes down to a mixture of its forboding tone (which admitedly will not work for everyone), some good performances (and in Frobisher's case, very good), much higher quality of writing from RTD than I am used to and really adept & slick direction (esp camera dir).
With the sense of dread/forboding it's just one of those thing not everyone will 'get' everytime. The other day I watched The Moonbase for the umpteenth time and finally realised how tense and unnerving it really is, which must have been even more effective on young viewers at the time. Sometimes these things just work, and when they do they really suck you into a story...
They had a scary villain, good moments of action and suspense, and great character moments, imo. Combined with the fact that it was actually on a relatively ambitious scale made it one of the more enjoyable moments in television sci-fi history in recent memory.
I'm on the fence with Torchwood. Recently I watched the first four episodes for the first time. Some of it was good. I like Gwen -- she's great as this series' "Everyman"/Rose.
What bugs me the most is how unprofessional everyone acts all the time. In a group that's supposedly above national governments, the UN, etc., why would you deliberately have misfits who rival members of G. I. Joe from the '80s cartoon in their lack of professionalism?
What bugs me the most is how unprofessional everyone acts all the time. In a group that's supposedly above national governments, the UN, etc., why would you deliberately have misfits who rival members of G. I. Joe from the '80s cartoon in their lack of professionalism?
For the most part, I find the show fun. Some elements of it, like the hyper-sexuality, seem a little silly to me, but they give its own flavor, I guess.
Well, I liked it because they finally did something interesting with the characters ... including, unfortunately, killing a lot of them off. I liked the adversaries Torchwood found itself facing and their motivations, and I liked the alien threat that drove the story and their creepy demands.
I also liked the horrible decision Jack had to make and the consequences of that decision -- even though they ultimately defeated the aliens, the cost to Jack was something my friends and family talked about for weeks afterwards.
But I do admit, I haven't watched it since. Frankly, it was too dark a story for my tastes. While I did enjoy sitting through each segment, in the end it was too much for me. I'm a daddy, you see, and Jack's crisis at the end was such that I wouldn't have made the same decision he did, even though he made the coldly correct choice. I'd have happily sacrificed every one of your offspring rather than jeopardize my own.
That's why he's the hero, and I'm the thing you never want placed in his position.
The cost of the deus ex machina was his grandson. That's hardly great writing; it's clear to me they wanted to have Jack do something like that so it could look dark and tragic. To me the story was overlong, a bit boring in places, and flawed in its premise. And the PM was unrealistically twunty just so we could have Frobisher do in his family for the sake of more manufactured tragedy.
Jesus Fucking Christ, I hate it when people do this.
The term deus ex machina has a meaning, okay? It's not just a term for any form of plot resolution you disliked. And you know what part of the definition of deus ex machina is?
It doesn't come at a cost!
In fact, that's why so many modern audiences don't like deus ex machinas -- they involve a solution suddenly arriving with no effort or cost on the part of the protagonists. Like the gods who appear from nowhere to rescue Medea in her play, the deus ex machina just happens.
So, if there's a cost to a deus ex machina?
Then it's not a deus ex machina.
Now, if the ending of Children of Earth didn't work for you? Fine. Whatever.
But don't call it a deus ex machina, 'cos it wasn't. Deus ex machina does not mean "ending I didn't like."
I think what Bones is getting at here is that we'd never seen Jack's grandson (Steven) prior to the beginning of "Children of Earth" ... the character was created simply so that he could be sacrificed at the end. So what kind of a sacrifice was that, really?
Well, as a self-contained story, it's as big a sacrifice as any of the others made. Like you, Sci, I'm willing to take it on those terms, although if RTD had really been thinking ahead, he'd have seen to it that we were introduced to the Jack's family at least back in Season 2. So I'm not willing to accept Bones' interpretation of Steven's death as part of a deus ex machina resolution, but it's not perfect.
Similarly, I liked watching Frobisher more than Bones did. A dedicated bureaucrat, willing to do anything to advance the interests of the state. Until it came to his own family and he realized the horrors he had supported. I got a sadistic kick out of watching the noose gradually tighten around his neck, because I've met people of his mentality. Worked with a few, even, and they never quite seem to have to confront the reality of what they are so dramatically as Frobisher did here.
"Children of Earth" resonated with me because of it's anti-state message. It was a wonderful thing to see coming out of England after decades of fetishizing central authority there. CoE was a warning about the dangers of entrusting the state with too much authority. That's a damned powerful message that compensates for a lot of bad writing and two previously dismal seasons/series of Torchwood. Maybe Bones got that bit and simply dismissed it, or perhaps it simply didn't resonate with her as much as it did me. But I liked the story and found it both powerful and moving.
I'm all for pre planning and putting things in place long before they need to be used, but there are limits, and Jack's grandson showing up is the a sort of thing every tv show has done, hell how many shows bring someone in at the start of an episode only to kill them 30 minutes later? At least Jack's grandson was brought in 5 episodes before the payoff Plus they obviously killed off you know who who'd been in it since episode 1 of season 1!
The ending was a bit of a letdown, but frankly it's hard to come up with anything that's better that wouldn't completely fuck up the Whoverse, and it didn't detract from what was an incredibly good serial. Five days of some of the most tense telly I've seen in ages, the BBC treating science fiction with some respect, RTD reigning himself in and showing what he can do?
Plus they obviously killed off you know who who'd been in it since episode 1 of season 1!The ending was a bit of a letdown, but frankly it's hard to come up with anything that's better that wouldn't completely fuck up the Whoverse, and it didn't detract from what was an incredibly good serial. Five days of some of the most tense telly I've seen in ages, the BBC treating science fiction with some respect, RTD reigning himself in and showing what he can do?
