When I was a kid, if a girl or a boy was wearing a cap in the classroom, he/she was always asked to take it off.
French lawmakers Approve Full Veil Ban
- Thread starter Angela 0077
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When I was a kid, if a girl or a boy was wearing a cap in the classroom, he/she was always asked to take it off.
I read today that Syria has also banned the full veil.
As mentioned before, if she is the one who generally runs the errends, then yes, she will. I doubt most oppressive men are going to do "women's work" just because she can't wear a veil doing it.
As for the truly oppressive assholes, they exist in any culture. In fact, there was a news story not too long ago about a man who kept his wife locked in his house for like 15 years before she escaped. Then, the was the guy over in Europe somewhere the kept his daughter and her children fathered by him locked in a celler.
^^ Banning fashion accessories is unlikely to fix that.
As you said, Americans are different; we don't think Human Rights are superficial.
You're illogical (and superficial because you occult the meaning behind the apparence). The veil is a piece of cloth and now it's a question of human right.
Don't consider yourself the leader of human rights, it's going to make laugh.
As far as I'm concerned (and as a French) it's one hell of a conundrum
1) Some women are forced to wear it, that's sad and shouldn't be allowed however
2) Some women actually choose willingly to wear it in accordance to their idea of religion and that shouldn't be restricted
3) I don't see how we can make a law that protects the first category without hurting the second category
4) I'm a gamer, I play games, video games, board games, etc... and if there's something I've learned it's that rules wording is the most important thing. Because the first thing people will do is to abuse the rules however they can to beat the game. It's the same thing about laws and since there's no definition of the veils (because there's not one Islam and there's not one Islamic culture and an infinity of veils) there's no way to write a law about it without either be too specific or way too generalized.
In short:
- there's no way to write a law that will work and do good.
- It's a society issue not a legislative one
In the end it'll probably be deemed unconstitutional by the Conseil Constitutionel (something close yet different from the Supreme Court)
If anything this law is a blatant attempt at pandering to an extremist minority by putting the blame on another minority playing it safe with the majority (and secretly hoping a large part of the majority is silently agreeing).
The French secular tradition (Laïcité) is that religion and political power should be kept separated, religion and spirituality are individual freedom that shouldn't be enforced upon others.
That's still in the works as there's many examples of meddling, especially with catholicism, France's historical majority religion (our President being appointed Chanoine of Latran by the Pope in 2007 was quite a heated debate over here) but that's what we're aiming for according to our constitution (even when our politicians forget about it).
As far as I'm concerned that means that blatant religious adherence symbols shouldn't be worn by state officials and representatives, whatever the symbol and the religion attached to it.
Whatever religious symbols a civilian wishes to wear in his home or in public is his to choose as long as he stops wearing it when he's working as a police officer, as a public school teacher, acting as an elected official, etc...
1) Some women are forced to wear it, that's sad and shouldn't be allowed however
2) Some women actually choose willingly to wear it in accordance to their idea of religion and that shouldn't be restricted
3) I don't see how we can make a law that protects the first category without hurting the second category
4) I'm a gamer, I play games, video games, board games, etc... and if there's something I've learned it's that rules wording is the most important thing. Because the first thing people will do is to abuse the rules however they can to beat the game. It's the same thing about laws and since there's no definition of the veils (because there's not one Islam and there's not one Islamic culture and an infinity of veils) there's no way to write a law about it without either be too specific or way too generalized.
In short:
- there's no way to write a law that will work and do good.
- It's a society issue not a legislative one
In the end it'll probably be deemed unconstitutional by the Conseil Constitutionel (something close yet different from the Supreme Court)
If anything this law is a blatant attempt at pandering to an extremist minority by putting the blame on another minority playing it safe with the majority (and secretly hoping a large part of the majority is silently agreeing).
The French secular tradition (Laïcité) is that religion and political power should be kept separated, religion and spirituality are individual freedom that shouldn't be enforced upon others.
That's still in the works as there's many examples of meddling, especially with catholicism, France's historical majority religion (our President being appointed Chanoine of Latran by the Pope in 2007 was quite a heated debate over here) but that's what we're aiming for according to our constitution (even when our politicians forget about it).
As far as I'm concerned that means that blatant religious adherence symbols shouldn't be worn by state officials and representatives, whatever the symbol and the religion attached to it.
Whatever religious symbols a civilian wishes to wear in his home or in public is his to choose as long as he stops wearing it when he's working as a police officer, as a public school teacher, acting as an elected official, etc...
That wasn't the case when I lived there and you've ignored my point about making an attempt ti fit in with the culture you're living but whatever.
When were you in France and where did you live? Upper class, and some workplace might shun it, but for most of the population jeans must be the most common piece of clothing over here since... well my whole lifetime (I think the only times I've seen my father wearing something else was at weddings and funerals, honest).
Back when I was in college (more years than I care to admit
) and I lived in Aix-en-Provence. My point though wasn't about the jeans though but about adjusting to the culture you're living in. It didn't have to be about jeans, it could have been about pink flamingos. 
I don't disagree with that. As you said, it's a thorny issue, with no simple solution.
They aren't the cause of it, either. That's my point.
If a man is going to abuse a woman, he will do it regardless of the religion or what she's wearing.
However, if he isn't abusive, and only going along with a religion he was raised in, he might have second thoughts about the entire thing - not the religion itself, just the part about subjugating women.
^^ That's an educational issue, not a legislative one.
You can't possibly be that obtuse. If it were just about a piece of cloth, you wouldn't be so gung ho about banning it.
You're illogical (and superficial because you occult the meaning behind the apparence). The veil is a piece of cloth and now it's a question of human right.
Now this is a Post that makes sense.
This definition of Laïcité is so IIIrd République ! You know very well it means so much more today !
You can't possibly be that obtuse. If it were just about a piece of cloth, you wouldn't be so gung ho about banning it.
You're illogical (and superficial because you occult the meaning behind the apparence). The veil is a piece of cloth and now it's a question of human right.
But I know it's not only a piece of cloth, that there is a symbol of oppression behind it and you know what ? I've experience this oppressive thing at work.
I know women who look like walking lampshades who are not even permitted to speak for themselves.
Same thing could be said of oppressing a group of people due to race, rather than gender.
It's been 150 years, but people still need to be educated.
How long should we wait before women in a certain religion are granted their freedom?
^^ If the laws in France don't acknowledge the equal Rights of women, they should concentrate on fixing that rather than legislating dress codes.
Of course they're permitted to speak for themselves. They're also permitted to wear or not wear lampshades as they choose. Or has France banned lampshades now, too?
You'd be surprised...and the one who is not allowing free speech to those women is not the French state. I speak from experience as a medical worker.
No, I wouldn't be surprised at all. I've worked in the medical field for 25 years, 22 of them in women's health, 14 of them as manager of a Midwifery Service. This is one reason I know that banning fashion accessories will do absolutely nothing to fix the problem.