TOS most sexist episodes/moments

[DevilEyes]

The first thing they teach you in self-defense classes (which I have been taking), is that the head is the most vulnerable spot on the entire body; the most important thing is to always protect your head. A blow to the head might knock you unconscious, cause a concussion/brain damage, or even kill you. It's always better to receive a blow to your arm, leg, shoulder, side, anything but your head. At best, it distracts you and makes you incapable of defending yourself for a moment. And when you're punching your opponent, their head is what you're first targeting, if you can: a short thrust in the eyes to distract them, then a punch into the face, a slap on the face, or a kick in the chin. Other spots you can target are the knees, the neck, the shin-bone, the belly... but the head is always the primary target, as even a weak punch to the head distracts an opponent for just enough time for you to either run, or punch them more strongly a couple of more times and then run... and, as I said, a blow to the head might also knock them down or out, if one can and has to do it.

On a human. We weren't talking about humans.

And you have information that it works different with Cardassians...? Maybe they are knocked out with a punch to their elbow?

 

[Pauln6]

Generally, we should be aiming for more equal characters and, if reflecting against a TOS background, that would mean toning down machismo for the men and dialing up confidence, competence, and just plain numbers for the women.

The second one sure, the other no. None of Star Trek's characters are macho stereotypes. They're just male. From what I've seen over the last couple of decades, the general principle is that in order to make women look good you have to make men look bad. Women's strength and competence is reflected in the weakness and incompetence of their useless male colleagues.

I think you may be oversensitive to the issue. Strong women does not have to equal weak men. I don't recall any examples in Trek where this was the case unless you count dumb security guards but that speaks to their purpose as cannon fodder to ramp up the tension rather than their gender. I recall that Troi was often portrayed as pretty hopeless, Archer always felt too laid back to me, and Tucker took advantage of his friendship with the Captain to behave unprofessionally but none of those things can be directly compared to the gender or roles of their contemporaries - the characters were just a bit off for my tastes.

NuBSG probably gave us the best mix but I think people get hung up on the fact that Stabuck was a ball-buster while Apollo was calmer and more sensible. His character wasn't bad because Starbuck was more macho though - he was a competent pilot and leader who stood by his convictions while she was a screw-up from a broken home. The Baltar and Six dynamic had a weak male and strong female and it was great! But you also have Adama and Roslin, Chief and Cally, Helo and Athena. There were plenty of competent male and female equal and unequal combinations throughout the whole show. If you focus on just a couple you miss the big picture which is variety.

Alias did suffer a bit from creating an overpowered female lead but that isn't to say that her male contemporaries were weaker, bad, or incompetent, just that she was a bit too good in comparison. Buffy is similar (albeit in a superhero show your superhero will always be better). The breadth of the characters is such that you can't just take Buffy as your one example to compare against your male characters. Firefly is another good example of a mix of male and female characters who are equal overall in spite of their different qualities.

Kirk is portrayed as having significant intelligence, with test scores higher than any of the cadets he got in to a fight with early in the film. He's not 'macho', he's an intelligent, capable commander who has a certain lack of respect for the chain of command when he believes he's right, which he was throughout the film.

Hell - you were the one who brought up the bar room brawl!

 

[Orcus]

The first thing they teach you in self-defense classes (which I have been taking), is that the head is the most vulnerable spot on the entire body; the most important thing is to always protect your head. A blow to the head might knock you unconscious, cause a concussion/brain damage, or even kill you. It's always better to receive a blow to your arm, leg, shoulder, side, anything but your head. At best, it distracts you and makes you incapable of defending yourself for a moment. And when you're punching your opponent, their head is what you're first targeting, if you can: a short thrust in the eyes to distract them, then a punch into the face, a slap on the face, or a kick in the chin. Other spots you can target are the knees, the neck, the shin-bone, the belly... but the head is always the primary target, as even a weak punch to the head distracts an opponent for just enough time for you to either run, or punch them more strongly a couple of more times and then run... and, as I said, a blow to the head might also knock them down or out, if one can and has to do it.

On a human. We weren't talking about humans.

And you have information that it works different with Cardassians...? Maybe they are knocked out with a punch to their elbow?

"Those were not his knees."

Oh, sorry - we're talking about Cardassians, aren't we?

 

[skylark14]

Yeah, it's the fault of the writer, so if the writer was male, it's a man's fault. Your point?

My point is simple: Man does something wrong, he's evil. Woman does something wrong, somehow it's a man's fault and she's excused.

Marla McGivers, anyone ? She betrayed her shipmates, but that's Khan's fault, isn't it ?

For whatever it's worth, I first saw this episode in the 60s, and it never entered my mind then or since that McGivers' behavior was Khan's fault. Nor that Palamas' behavior was Apollo's fault, etc. My first thought was always about the failures of StarFleet's psychological screening procedures regarding its female members. (Of course, it also failed for most of the StarFleet captains) My next reaction as a child in the 60s was to momentarily drop out of the story and blame the writer, usually male as DevilEyes states.

To me, it may be a mistake to blame TOS's portrayal of women as a product of the 60s mentality. I was there for the first showings, and my jaw dropped just as much then as people's do today. I think maybe it wasn't so much a 60s mentality we see in the shows as an early 20th century mentality. Out of curiosity I checked the birthdates for Arthur Singer who wrote the story for Turnabout Intruder (1910) and Carey Wilbur who co-wrote Space Seed (1916). Gene Coon and Gene Roddenbury both born in the early 20s. Arthur Singer would have been old enough to remember when women couldn't even vote.

 

[Hermiod]

And you have information that it works different with Cardassians...? Maybe they are knocked out with a punch to their elbow?

Cardassians, like many races in Star Trek, have stronger bone structure in their heads than Humans, hence Seska's comment.

I think you may be oversensitive to the issue. Strong women does not have to equal weak men. I don't recall any examples in Trek where this was the case unless you count dumb security guards but that speaks to their purpose as cannon fodder to ramp up the tension rather than their gender..

I'm not arguing that Star Trek did this. It's a feature of many modern television shows, however. The fact that the almost universally male security guards in TOS served as cannon fodder, however, is a problem.

There were plenty of competent male and female equal and unequal combinations throughout the whole show. If you focus on just a couple you miss the big picture which is variety.

Battlestar Galactica treated gender as a complete non-issue, to its praise, aside from the infamous "Unfinished Business" boxing match which should have left Galactica missing its best pilot when you look at the size of Jamie Bamber's arms in comparison to the size of Katee Sackhoff's head.

Buffy is similar (albeit in a superhero show your superhero will always be better).

Buffy has significant problems with its portrayal of men that I won't go in to here. Watch season seven, however, and tell me that its writers even vaguely like men.

I'm not going to derail this thread in to a more general discussion of the portrayal of men in the media as it's supposed to be about TOS. Suffice to say, I can list hundreds of shows which portray men poorly - we're all perverts, desperate virgins, philanderers, invariably to blame for relationship break-ups, abusers, rapists, incompetent parents, lazy, stupid, childish, selfish, borish, violent and none of us will ever say no to sex no matter how unappealing the person offering it is.

It's okay for women to kill us, abuse us, rape us, attack us, insult us, cheat on us, assault us and generally make our lives miserable because we're male and we must have done something to deserve it.

 

[DevilEyes]

NuBSG probably gave us the best mix but I think people get hung up on the fact that Stabuck was a ball-buster while Apollo was calmer and more sensible. His character wasn't bad because Starbuck was more macho though - he was a competent pilot and leader who stood by his convictions while she was a screw-up from a broken home. The Baltar and Six dynamic had a weak male and strong female and it was great! But you also have Adama and Roslin, Chief and Cally, Helo and Athena. There were plenty of competent male and female equal and unequal combinations throughout the whole show. If you focus on just a couple you miss the big picture which is variety.

Alias did suffer a bit from creating an overpowered female lead but that isn't to say that her male contemporaries were weaker, bad, or incompetent, just that she was a bit too good in comparison. Buffy is similar (albeit in a superhero show your superhero will always be better). The breadth of the characters is such that you can't just take Buffy as your one example to compare against your male characters. Firefly is another good example of a mix of male and female characters who are equal overall in spite of their different qualities.

Your analysis of BSG is spot on... I always found it ironic when people complained that (new) BSG had 'weak whiny men' and named Starbuck and Apollo as examples - if the genders were reversed, they'd be complaining that the show emasculates men by making Starbuck an alcoholic screw-up as opposed to his more sensible and level-headed female superior officer, Apollo.

But I wouldn't call Alias a show with an overpowered female lead and weak men. It may actually be an example of the opposite. I remember that someone once said that Joanie Stubbs on Deadwood can be seen as more of a potential feminist icon than Sydney Bristow, even though the former is a brothel madame/ex-prostitute, because she is carving a more independent position in an environment where women were very subjugated, while Sydney Bristow's whole life was defined and decided for her by men. I'm not sure if it's a completly accurate statement, but there's certainly some truth to it. And I don't see many weak men on Alias.

The only show with overpowered women that I can think of that really go out of its way to make men weak is Xena: Warrior Princess. They even weakened Ares as the show went on (and I thought he'd get a pass for being the antagonist/villain, at least in the beginning) and made him look so wussy and silly in some episodes that it was hard to see him as a real antagonist again.

Though I can see how someone might see Janeway/Chakotay dynamic on VOY in the light of weakening male characters to make the female ones look stronger, but I'm not sure if that was intentional, rather than just the writers abandoning the Maquis concept and not wanting to write conflict within the crew, while simultaneously not having a clue how to write Native American spirituality as something other than a bunch of cliches.

And you have information that it works different with Cardassians...? Maybe they are knocked out with a punch to their elbow?

Cardassians, like many races in Star Trek, have stronger bone structure in their heads than Humans, hence Seska's comment.
.

If they have stronger bone structure in their heads, wouldn't it make sense that they have stronger bone structure overall? I don't believe they have strong heads with shaky weak little bodies to support it.

I'm not going to derail this thread in to a more general discussion of the portrayal of men in the media as it's supposed to be about TOS. Suffice to say, I can list hundreds of shows which portray men poorly - we're all perverts, desperate virgins, philanderers, invariably to blame for relationship break-ups, abusers, rapists, incompetent parents, lazy, stupid, childish, selfish, borish, violent and none of us will ever say no to sex no matter how unappealing the person offering it is.

It's okay for women to kill us, abuse us, rape us, attack us, insult us, cheat on us, assault us and generally make our lives miserable because we're male and we must have done something to deserve it.

Shows like Law and Order: SVU had episodes about males being raped by women, and tried to get across the idea that it's a serious issue. Homicide:LOTS had an episode about a well-off woman who tried to use the 'battered wife syndrome' to justify a cold blooded murder of her ex-husband that was mostly motivated by financial reasons.

I do see a lot of the portrayal of men as lazy, stupid, incompetent, etc. but it is confined to one genre - sitcom. The 'dumb, lazy man who drinks beer and watches sports all day and would do anything for a pair of boobs' cliche (with a beautiful, smart, competent wife or girlfriend) is one of the things I find most grating in the TV of the last couple of decades. Incidentally, I don't get the impression that these shows are aimed at women - they seemed to be aimed at men that the writers of those shows presume to be similar to their anti-heroes. (Therefore the dumb, lazy guy is meant to be likable, and usually has an impossibly hot, smart, competent wife - a wish-fulfillment if I ever saw one.) Speaking of which, I feel that shows aimed at women like Desperate Housewives or Sex and the City portray their female characters as a bunch of unbearable cliches - hysterical idiots/screw-ups, jealous bitches, airheads, frustrated career women, etc.

 

[Hermiod]

Your analysis of BSG is spot on... I always found it ironic when people complained that (new) BSG had 'weak whiny men' and named Starbuck and Apollo as examples - if the genders were reversed, they'd be complaining that the show emasculates men by making Starbuck an alcoholic screw-up as opposed to his more sensible and level-headed female superior officer, Apollo.

As I said, aside from "Unfinished Business", which should have resulted in Starbuck's death if it was at all realistic, nuBSG is a shining example of TV done right.

 

[DevilEyes]

Your analysis of BSG is spot on... I always found it ironic when people complained that (new) BSG had 'weak whiny men' and named Starbuck and Apollo as examples - if the genders were reversed, they'd be complaining that the show emasculates men by making Starbuck an alcoholic screw-up as opposed to his more sensible and level-headed female superior officer, Apollo.

As I said, aside from "Unfinished Business", which should have resulted in Starbuck's death if it was at all realistic, nuBSG is a shining example of TV done right.

Yeah, that fight was really unrealistic. It was a typical slash concept that didn't work that well made into het.

 

[Hermiod]

Shows like Law and Order: SVU had episodes about males being raped by women, and tried to get across the idea that it's a serious issue. Homicide:LOTS had an episode about a well-off woman who tried to use the 'battered wife syndrome' to justify a cold blooded murder of her ex-husband that was mostly motivated by financial reasons.

Our very own favourite show is guilty here - remember Enterprise's "Unexpected" ? Trip is raped in this episode and he's portrayed as an object of ridicule for it.

Other examples include Dollhouse (Echo on Daniel Perrin), Friends (Joey's casting agent who makes him sleep with her to get a job), Farscape (Grazer on Crichton), Buffy (Faith on Riley), repeated examples on Oz (Warden Glynn even advocates it as a method ), Stargate SG-1 (Hathor on Daniel), Desperate Housewives, CSI (Nick was raped as a child by his babysitter) and many others.

I do see a lot of the portrayal of men as lazy, stupid, incompetent, etc. but it is confined to one genre - sitcom. The 'dumb, lazy man who drinks beer and watches sports all day and would do anything for a pair of boobs' cliche (with a beautiful, smart, competent wife or girlfriend) is one of the things I find most grating in the TV of the last couple of decades. Incidentally, I don't get the impression that these shows are aimed at women - they seemed to be aimed at men that the writers of those shows presume to be similar to their anti-heroes. (Therefore the dumb, lazy guy is meant to be likable, and usually has an impossibly hot, smart, competent wife - a wish-fulfillment if I ever saw one.) Speaking of which, I feel that shows aimed at women like Desperate Housewives or Sex and the City portray their female characters as a bunch of unbearable cliches - hysterical idiots/screw-ups, jealous bitches, airheads, frustrated career women, etc.

Sex and the City is the single most obvious example of sheer, unadulterated misandry in the history of television. Every single problem any of them have is blamed on men and they gleefully encourage it. And the best part ? As you point out, it hates women too! It portrays you all as a bunch of shallow, shoe-obsessed size queens.

Do not assume that I am blaming women for the portrayal of men in the media. TV writing is a heavily male-dominated field. Men are responsible for allowing their gender's role and contribution to society to be devalued and mocked.

 

[DevilEyes]

Shows like Law and Order: SVU had episodes about males being raped by women, and tried to get across the idea that it's a serious issue. Homicide:LOTS had an episode about a well-off woman who tried to use the 'battered wife syndrome' to justify a cold blooded murder of her ex-husband that was mostly motivated by financial reasons.

Our very own favourite show is guilty here - remember Enterprise's "Unexpected" ? Trip is raped in this episode and he's portrayed as an object of ridicule for it.

Yes, I argued that on ENT board: http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=124213

Other examples include Dollhouse (Echo on Daniel Perrin), Friends (Joey's casting agent who makes him sleep with her to get a job), Farscape (Grazer on Crichton), Buffy (Faith on Riley), repeated examples on Oz (Warden Glynn even advocates it as a method ), Stargate SG-1 (Hathor on Daniel), Desperate Housewives, CSI (Nick was raped as a child by his babysitter) and many others.

Oz is definitely not an example of treating male rape lightly. It was a major theme and showed the consequences on the victims. There was nothing flippant or comic about its portrayal of any of the rapes on the show. Glynn was hardly the spokesperson for the show, he he was just as unconcerned with the murders of the inmates and never bothered much with the investigations. A female-on-male example, Claire Howell's sexual harassment, abuse and rape of the inmates was also portrayed in all its ugliness and there was nothing comic about it.

 

[Kegg]

"Unexpected" is pretty much the Star Trek 'weird stuff happens to my body via aliens' episode. There is an reverse of this pregnancy plot involving a woman, it's TNG's "The Child." That episode doesn't play the idea for laughs but it doesn't really act all horrified at it either.

 

[Hermiod]

Oz is definitely not an example of treating male rape lightly. It was a major theme and showed the consequences on the victims. There was nothing flippant or comic about its portrayal of any of the rapes on the show. Glynn was hardly the spokesperson for the show, he he was just as unconcerned with the murders of the inmates and never bothered much with the investigations. A female-on-male example, Claire Howell's sexual harassment, abuse and rape of the inmates was also portrayed in all its ugliness and there was nothing comic about it.

It's not about comedy, it's about repercussions.

In the end, despite being a murderer and a rapist, we are asked to feel sorry for Howell because she is pregnant, possibly with one of the inmates she has raped as the father - she doesn't even know, and her religious beliefs preclude having an abortion.

There are no genuine repercussions to Howell's actions. She does not end up in jail herself, she is never charged with any crime. As a result, she's a great example of how female characters get away with a vast array of crimes against male victims.

"Unexpected" is pretty much the Star Trek 'weird stuff happens to my body via aliens' episode. There is an reverse of this pregnancy plot involving a woman, it's TNG's "The Child." That episode doesn't play the idea for laughs but it doesn't really act all horrified at it either.

There's another issue with "Unexpected". The episode has to go to great lengths to explain that the child is not actually Trip's, biologically speaking. If not, they would need to explain why the child automatically belonged with its mother.

Edit - one more comment on this. DevilEyes mentions the dumb fat husband and the hot wife wish fulfillment thing in sitcoms. On thinking about it, I could easily make the argument that the vast majority of sitcom husbands are, in fact, domestic abuse victims. While their wives are typically not violent, they do use some fairly serious levels of psychological abuse to manipulate and control their husbands. The best examples I can think of are Keeping Up Appearances' Richard (who is treated hideously by his wife Hyacinth in the show to the point where he even has to give up his job for her), Niles from Frasier and Hal from Malcolm in the Middle.

 

[DevilEyes]

^It's not about comedy, it's about repercussions.

In the end, despite being a murderer and a rapist, we are asked to feel sorry for Howell because she is pregnant, possibly with one of the inmates she has raped as the father, and her religious beliefs preclude having an abortion.

There are no genuine repercussions to Howell's actions. She does not end up in jail herself, she is never charged with any crime. As a result, she's a great example of how female characters get away with a vast array of crimes against male victims.

We were also 'asked' to feel sorry about Schillinger, Adebisi and Robson, many times over (the first two also had periods of discovering religion that seemed to be taken seriously). There was also a priest child abuser character who was portrayed in a somewhat sympathetic light. Another guard, Lopresti, also was never 'punished' for sleeping with an inmate on death row (Shirley) - maybe not rape but still very unethical in his position - even though Shirley actually revealed it (I guess they just preferred not to take an inmate's word against a CO's); and he was never punished for his complicity in what was practically the murder of Andy Schillinger by the order of his father (at best, it's facilitating a suicide). Ryan O'Reilly was not punished for many murders he caused during the run of the show (including the one Howell committed fat his request). Oz was not a kind of show where people are simply good or evil, and every evil person gets punished while the good ones are rewarded. Every character had layers, and every character, including the worst of the worst, the monsters, had moments when you could feel sorry for them. The only exceptions are a few very minor characters who didn't spend enough time on screen to become multi-layered (like CO Metzger or the two nazis who ended up dying in a tunnel)... and Governer Dev(i)lin.

 

[Hermiod]

^Schillinger and Adebisi die and Robson becomes a HIV-infected pariah and a victim of multiple rapes. Just sayin'.

 

[barnaclelapse]

It appears that every woman on the Enterprise wants Pike in Menagerie. He is given 3 choices - a blond, brunette and redhead and all 3 of course want him, or at least fantasize about him. But we are never told his fantasies about them.

You couldn't show those on TV in the 60's.

Actually you can't show it on TV now. Not even HBO.

 

[DevilEyes]

It appears that every woman on the Enterprise wants Pike in Menagerie. He is given 3 choices - a blond, brunette and redhead and all 3 of course want him, or at least fantasize about him. But we are never told his fantasies about them.

You couldn't show those on TV in the 60's.

Actually you can't show it on TV now. Not even HBO.

They didn't show their fantasies about him, either.

 

[Captrek]

From Tomorrow is Yesterday:

KIRK: Captain's log, supplemental. Engineering Officer Scott informs warp engines damaged, but can be made operational and reenergised.
COMPUTER: Computed and recorded, dear.
KIRK: Computer, you will not address me in that manner. Compute.
COMPUTER: Computed, dear.
KIRK: Mister Spock, I ordered this computer and its interlinking systems repaired.
SPOCK: I have investigated it, Captain. To correct the fault will require an overhaul of the entire computer system and a minimum of three weeks at a Starbase.
KIRK: I wouldn't mind so much if it didn't get so affectionate.
SPOCK: It also has an unfortunate tendency to giggle.
CHRISTOPHER: I take it that a lady computer is not routine.
SPOCK: We put in at Cygnet Fourteen for general repair and maintenance. Cygnet Fourteen is a planet dominated by women. They seemed to feel the ship's computer system lacked a personality. They gave it one. Female, of course.

 

[Hermiod]

^I'm going to assume that such a planet is not a member of the Federation.

Wishful thinking, I know.

 

[Pauln6]

I like to think that Kirk tried to get a bit too much snoo snoo and the female engineers knew EXACTLY how annoying the computer personality would be. Now, Eddie the Shipboard Computer would have been even better. Telling Kirk it's a strange new planet so he had to wrap up nice and warm would have saved us a lot of flimsy torn shirts.

 

[scotpens]

. . . Reminds me of Kirk’s description of childish mischief, including such things as “dipping little girls’ curls in inkwells.” I bet that’s really common with 23rd century kids.

Inkwells and the kind of pens you have to dip in them were quite obsolete even in the 1960s (except for artists and calligraphers, who still use them today.) I'm sure Kirk was intentionally using an archaic reference for the sake of humor.