Redemption Part II Nagging Question

[Anwar]

Well, I got the feeling that the Romulan Higher-Ups knew the "2000 soldiers to hold Vulcan" thing wouldn't work and just wanted Sela as a scapegoat. After all, she was only a 20-something whose main claim was being an Admiral's daughter. Nobody would miss her (assuming her daddy was dead).

So, she either was imprisoned or executed by the Romulans after that.

 

[Tom]

The romulans are idiots to follow Sela who is half human and half Romulan, then years later they follow Shinzon, a human clone. You would think the way the romulans are they would be more pick about who they follow. I would go on to Nero but he was just leader of a bunch of minors, thats all.

 

[Hober Mallow]

I loved "Yesterday's Enterprise". I also thought that Sela was a cool idea, but just not ultilized well. She ended up only being a reason to have Denise Crosby come back for another role, which was really only for the fans.

That didn't end up being the reason, that was the only reason she was there. It was Denise Crosby's idea for her to return.

 

[Christopher]

The romulans are idiots to follow Sela who is half human and half Romulan, then years later they follow Shinzon, a human clone. You would think the way the romulans are they would be more pick about who they follow.

So you think race should be the sole arbiter of leadership ability?

First off, the Romulans never "followed" Sela. She was a commander in their military -- the equivalent of a captain in Starfleet. She served the Romulan government, not the other way around. She rose to that rank because she proved herself capable, and she was able to convince the government to undertake these plans, plans in which her racial origin were totally irrelevant (since one was directed against the Klingons and the other against the Vulcans).

As for Shinzon, a Romulan military faction believed they were using him as an ally, pawn, or figurehead in overthrowing the sitting government so that they could remove resistance to their policies. One could see it as analogous to the Mexica people helping Hernando Cortez, an "alien," overthrow the Aztec Empire which oppressed them. In both cases, they underestimated how much power the "alien" would end up seizing. But politics makes strange bedfellows, and it's hardly unprecedented for a people to choose a leader not of their own nationality or race if they think that's the best person for the job.

I would go on to Nero but he was just leader of a bunch of minors, thats all.

Funny, they didn't look like children. Or do you mean they were minoring in starship operations with a major in mining and mineral engineering?

I loved "Yesterday's Enterprise". I also thought that Sela was a cool idea, but just not ultilized well. She ended up only being a reason to have Denise Crosby come back for another role, which was really only for the fans.

That didn't end up being the reason, that was the only reason she was there. It was Denise Crosby's idea for her to return.

I think the key word choice there is "he ended up only being a reason...", i.e. that in the final analysis, no other reason for the character ever emerged.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, I don't even think her rank was due to ability, I think it may have been because of her father (who she was either alienated from, or dead, at the time of TNG). Ranking Romulan official who got to have his way with a human woman and all that...

 

[Whill]

I would go on to Nero but he was just leader of a bunch of minors, thats all.

Funny, they didn't look like children. Or do you mean they were minoring in starship operations with a major in mining and mineral engineering?

LOL, my wife gets mad when I do stuff like that. But I'm not the best speller myself. I do have there, their and they're strait though!

I loved "Yesterday's Enterprise". I also thought that Sela was a cool idea, but just not ultilized well. She ended up only being a reason to have Denise Crosby come back for another role, which was really only for the fans.

That didn't end up being the reason, that was the only reason she was there. It was Denise Crosby's idea for her to return.

I think the key word choice there is "he ended up only being a reason...", i.e. that in the final analysis, no other reason for the character ever emerged.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Thank you.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Actually, I don't even think her rank was due to ability, I think it may have been because of her father (who she was either alienated from, or dead, at the time of TNG). Ranking Romulan official who got to have his way with a human woman and all that...

That's part of my accepting of a woman not even in her mid-twenties being a Commander in the Romulan forces. The other part is that I think that attaining the rank is easier than holding on to the rank in the Romulan military, and that she kept her rank at least up to Unification spoke to her connections and possibily her skill.

Like I said in the other Sela thread recently, had she been used more, it might actually help to make some sense out of her. Instead, she's used in two/three episodes and never referred to again, and it makes her connection to Tasha pointless - she could have been just another Romulan Commander and the most we'd lose is about five/ten minutes of 'Redemption II.' Having an episode where the Enterprise attempts to locate survivors of the Enterprise-C would have at least been a step towards justifying it by giving the show a story out of her backstory.

 

[Christopher]

Actually, I don't even think her rank was due to ability, I think it may have been because of her father (who she was either alienated from, or dead, at the time of TNG). Ranking Romulan official who got to have his way with a human woman and all that...

That's part of my accepting of a woman not even in her mid-twenties being a Commander in the Romulan forces. The other part is that I think that attaining the rank is easier than holding on to the rank in the Romulan military, and that she kept her rank at least up to Unification spoke to her connections and possibily her skill.

Either way, the point remains that the whole Romulan Empire didn't "follow" her. She was never running the whole show, any more than Picard ran the Federation.

Like I said in the other Sela thread recently, had she been used more, it might actually help to make some sense out of her. Instead, she's used in two/three episodes and never referred to again, and it makes her connection to Tasha pointless - she could have been just another Romulan Commander and the most we'd lose is about five/ten minutes of 'Redemption II.'

Five/ten minutes that completely derailed the main story of the episode with no real payoff. So it would be no great loss.

 

[Anwar]

Well, they already had set up her appearance in "Mind's Eye". They had to eventually reveal her otherwise we'd be left wondering who the shadow woman with Crosby's voice was and why she was with Romulans.

 

[Christopher]

^All part of the same strategy. Obviously, if they'd never decided to bring back Crosby as Sela, they wouldn't have included that mystery woman in "The Mind's Eye."

 

[Timo]

Given how the mystery enemy of "The Neutral Zone" mutated from insectoids to the Borg while we waited, and did so in an entirely consistent and enjoyable manner, I guess TNG writers could have invented a suitable new identity for the mystery woman of "Mind's Eye" if either Crosby's availability or the plotlines so far planned for her didn't pan out.

Spock's long-lost daughter? Caithlin Dar? Time-traveling T'Pau of Vulcan? Nothing really limited the writers there, as the shadowy character had displayed no specific character traits beyond "shadowy" and hadn't even been played by Crosby...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[DonIago]

I minored in Shadowy back in college...

 

[Ssosmcin]

Given how the mystery enemy of "The Neutral Zone" mutated from insectoids to the Borg while we waited,

Are you thinking of the aliens from "Conspiracy?" They were the only inscetoids we saw and they were never followed up on. The mystery menace from "The Neutral Zone" was just that - a mystery. We knew nothing about them until Data mentioned a connection in "Q, Who?" A connection which didn't make a lot of sense considering Q had to zap them all the way across the galaxy for the Borg to know of the Federation. Yet the Neutral Zone is right at the edge of Federation space. This implies the Borg came all that way then went "ah fergit it" and zipped back, without assimilating anyone else.

 

[Anwar]

Actually, that was it. The Borg attacked those outposts, decided there was nothing of worth there and went somewhere else. Then when the ENT-D showed up they figured "Huh, how'd they get out here?" and then when the ENT-D just vanished they were "Whoa, better check them out again".

 

[Mysterion]

Given how the mystery enemy of "The Neutral Zone" mutated from insectoids to the Borg while we waited, and did so in an entirely consistent and enjoyable manner, I guess TNG writers could have invented a suitable new identity for the mystery woman of "Mind's Eye" if either Crosby's availability or the plotlines so far planned for her didn't pan out.

Spock's long-lost daughter? Caithlin Dar? Time-traveling T'Pau of Vulcan? Nothing really limited the writers there, as the shadowy character had displayed no specific character traits beyond "shadowy" and hadn't even been played by Crosby...

Timo Saloniemi

If you wanna go that route, why not Saavik? She finally decided to embrace her Romulan heritage. Would have tied-in with Spock being around for the story, and been a shocker for the fans.

 

[Mr Silver]

If you wanna go that route, why not Saavik? She finally decided to embrace her Romulan heritage. Would have tied-in with Spock being around for the story, and been a shocker for the fans.

The original script for TUC had Saavik in place of Valeris, however Nick Meyer, Leonard Nimoy and Gene Roddenberry agreed that it would be wrong for Saavik to be a traitor, since she was regarded as a fan favourite, not only that but also her motivations would be complicated...for example:

A) Saavik doesn't want peace between the Federation and the Klingon Empire, because they killed David Marcus, The Grissom Crew and if not for David stepping in, they would have killed her (in TSFS novelisation, it was stated that Saavik and David were a couple), however "Revenge isn't Logical" and thats the problem, Saavik, although half-romulan (see TWOK deleted scene) exhibited a dominant Vulcan personality, therefore it would be a mess for them to attempt to explain away

B) Saavik is following orders from her superiors, namely Admiral Cartwright the problem with this is, as we've seen Saavik is quick to question command decisions, she also wouldn't betray her mentor, Spock and indeed Captain Kirk (who greatly helped her career) with orders from a superior with questionable motives

there could be other reasons, but those are the two I can think of, as you can see, in TUC it would be hard to justify Saavik's betrayal in the story, so what makes it any different if she were to betray the Federation in "Redemption"?

For starters, given Saavik has been essentially raised in the Federation way of life (and from what we've seen she's happy with it) why would she suddenly decide to help the enemy, sure it would be a mindfuck to the fans, but with every villain, comes a story, a reason for their "descent into madness" and I just can't picture anything working where Saavik is concerned

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

And if they did come up with a decent 'descent into madness' story for Saavik, it would also have caused the story to stop and explain her motivation for betraying them. That would have taken a chunk of time that would have basically put the story's main plot on pause.

 

[Anwar]

And anyways, why would Saavik frame David's own father as part of the plot to kill Gorkon?!

 

[Pauln6]

Saavik would have been problematic but it would have been waaay cool if she had been a traitor. The B5 traitor plot threads were lots of fun and I didn't see the Warehouse 13 traitor thread coming at all.

I would have preferred Sela to be a different actress with Tasha being part of the underground. That would have given us tons of new material to work with as far as her character was concerned.

 

[Anwar]

The B5 traitor plots were there from the beginning of the series, and made sense. Saavik being a traitor who would try to FRAME KIRK and have him sent to prison forever? Not so much.