My imperfect theory is that instead of internal control (i.e. logic), the Romulans perfected a system of external control (i.e. dictatorship). Because if you look at intelligence units like the Tal Shiar, every citizen is wound up tight in that Empire. You can't step out of line.
Spock & Uhura romance
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My imperfect theory is that instead of internal control (i.e. logic), the Romulans perfected a system of external control (i.e. dictatorship). Because if you look at intelligence units like the Tal Shiar, every citizen is wound up tight in that Empire. You can't step out of line.
I don't know which ENT episode you're talking about, but the canon fact about Vulcan emotions being very strong, much stronger than Human, is most definitely much older than ENT. I knew about it long before I even watched a single episode of ENT.
It was longtime fanon, canonized in ENT, in a memorable conversation between T'Pol and Trip. Dunno if the writer was female - probably not - most of the writers on that show were guys and I didn't bother to notice who wrote what - but it hardly matters now. One way or the other, it's 100% pure, unadulerated FACT now.
It was established in TNG "Sarek" (which I re-watched today). Sarek, warning Picard about the dangers of a mind-meld: "Vulcan emotions are extremely intense... We have learned to suppress them. No Human could control them, they would overwhelm you!"
The writer of the episode is Peter S. Beagle. Doesn't look female...
As for TOS, it didn't establish that Vulcan emotions are stronger than Human, but it did establish that Vulcans used to be very violent in the pre-Surak past ("Balance of Terror", "The Savage Curtain", "All Our Yesterdays").
I'm still at a loss as to who are those female writers that are responsible for "revisionist" Vulcans and who focused on "feelings". Still waiting for maryh to provide names. The female writer who did most to develop Vulcans is, of course, D.C. Fontana in TOS. I can hardly think of any female writers who wrote anything of note about Vulcans in any of the movies, TNG, DS9 or VOY. On DS9, "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" with the jerk Solok was written by Ron Moore, while "Field of Fire" with the deranged Vulcan serial killer was written by Robert Hewitt Wolfe. VOY Tuvok episodes were written by Mike Sussman and Michael Piller ("Meld"), Joe Menosky ("Alter Ego"), Kenneth Biller ("Random Thoughts"), Bryan Fuller, Nick Sagan and Jimmy Diggs ("Gravity"), Andre Bormanis & Robert Doherty ("Riddles"); the only Vulcan episode of VOY written by a woman is "Blood Fever" (Lisa Klink) but that's about Pon Farr rather than "feelings".
On ENT, the people mainly responsible for the "revisionist" Vulcans are certainly Rick Berman and Brannon Braga: showrunners for the first 3 seasons, writers of "Broken Bow", "Carbon Creek, "The Seventh", "Stigma", "Harbinger", and the story for "The Andorian Incident", "Shadows of P'Jem", "Fusion", "Bounty", "Azati Prime". The only female writers involved with writing episodes about Vulcans in the first 3 seasons were Marie Jacquemetton, who co-wrote "Breaking the Ice" with her husband Andre, so that's just 1/2 of the writing team of the episode; and Phyllis Strong, who just wrote "Damage" on her own (IMO one of the best episodes of the series) in season 3 (whose events were so much based on what came before that it would be really weird to state that she was responsible for the storyline about T'Pol's Trelium addiction, which had been going on for an entire season, and was directly established in the previous episode, "Azati Prime" and "Harbinger" before that) and co-wrote the teleplays for "Shadows of P'Jem" and "Fusion" with Mike Sussman (on B&B's story) and "Bounty" with Mike Sussman and Hans Tobeason (again on B&B's story), and since those episodes had A and B storylines, for all we know she might not have even been involved with the Vulcan storylines. Other T'Pol/Vulcan season 3 episodes were written by: Jonathan Fernandez ("Impulse", the one with the zombie Vulcans), Mike Sussman ("Twilight"), B&B again ("Harbinger", where T'Pol's erratic behavior begins), B&B and Coto ("Azati Prime").
In season 4 (with Coto as the showrunner), Judith Reeves-Stevens joined the staff together with her husband and co-writer, Garfield Reeves-Stevens. Both were previously known as Trek lit authors. They wrote everything together. So again, we have a male-female writing team. I fail to see how anything written by them could be attributed to "female writers" rather than "male writers". Anyway, Reeves-Stevenses were involved in the Vulcan trilogy, which is usually credited with correcting the continuity problems and errors made by B&B in the previous seasons (such as the mind-meld issue from "Fusion" and "Stigma"). They are credited with writing "The Forge", while the other 2 parts of the 3-parter are credited to Andre Bormanis and Mike Sussman, respectively. Previously, "Home" (T'Pol and Trip go to Vulcan, T'Pol's mother is introduced) was written by Mike Sussman. The other episodes credited to Reeves-Stevenses are "Observer Effect", "United", "Divergence" and "Terra Prime"; the last one, which is really the only one out of those that is noted for dealing with Vulcans (i.e. T'Pol) being emotional, was co-written by Manny Coto and Andre Bormanis. It was the second part of a two-parter whose first part, "Demons", was written by Manny Coto. I think it's also pretty clear that Trip/T'Pol relationship was mostly the doing of Manny Coto, who joined the staff in season 3 and became a showrunner in season 4, and obviously, Reeves-Stevenses are hardly responsible for the creation of storylines (T&T, T'Pol's Trelium addiction) that started before they even joined the staff.
So... yeah, I'm still waiting to learn how it's the "female writers focusing on feelings" that are responsible for theso-called "revisionist" Vulcans... unless someone knows something about Beagle, Braga, Berman, or Coto that I don't know...
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On TOS, Spock and others spoke of historical Vulcan behavior as extraordinarily violent "even by human standards" - the extreme nature of it comes up in "Balance Of Terror," "All Our Yesterdays" and "The Savage Curtain" among other places. Whether they were in fact more emotional than human beings is entirely open to interpretation.
Its best not to think about that and concentrate on Mariette Hartley.
Just as it was in The Immunity Syndrome.
That's a very good question and answering it would finally provide the key to "unlocking" the Romulans - making them believable and coherent as a single species, the way DS9 did for the Cardassians.
And that's a very good start for an answer. Some Trek writer needs to get to work on fleshing that out.
Not any more. ENT canonized the notion that Vulcans are more violently emotional than humans. (And no, you can't just say ENT doesn't count because it mostly sucks.
)Which of course means that Spock's problem was never his human side. It was his Vulcan side. (And this makes sense to me - that Vulcan guff always set off my bullshit meter.)
The atavachron did not properly prepare Spock for living in the past, since his physiology is too different from the inhabitants?
Who says Roumlan society is not highly violent, but not to the point of racial extinction?
T'Girl, do you have any external references for post#199.
Who says Roumlan society is not highly violent, but not to the point of racial extinction?
T'Girl, do you have any external references for post#199.
Or Starfleets use of substandard materials.
Also, the Romulan Empire is (or was) a major galactic power. That power is based on conquering other civilizations and engaging in unprovoked assaults on other galactic powers like the Federation. Maybe the reason (or result of this) is to provide an "external outlet" for their people's aggressive tendencies.
Well, during the time of TOS we know nothing of Romulas as "a major galactic power." We only know of one or two planets that Earth fought a war with and that now have very little or nothing to do with the rest of the Galaxy.
Abrams's Star Trek doesn't tell us anything new about the Romulans either.
Abrams's Star Trek doesn't tell us anything new about the Romulans either.
I've gotten the sense that if the Federation and the Klingons take them that seriously, then they must be a major power. Plus, Memory-Alpha refers to them as such.
Memory-Alpha's encyclopedia isn't canon. 
We've seen...a Romulan prison camp. Have we ever heard of a Romulan colony or conquered world?
We've seen...a Romulan prison camp. Have we ever heard of a Romulan colony or conquered world?
Memory-Alpha's encyclopedia isn't canon.
We've seen...a Romulan prison camp. Have we ever heard of a Romulan colony or conquered world?
No, but it's based only on canon sources and it's written through the consensus of numerous Trekkies who I assume know what they're talking about. It's also known that the Romulans took over Remus and turned their citizens into a subclass.
Hey, if you don't agree, that's fine. I admit that we don't know much about the Romulan Empire. However, we don't even know much about the Klingon Empire and yet they were in the series a lot more than the Romulans were.
Sci-Fi doesn't have to contain drama - but if it's on the screen it better give some action and drama. However, Sci-Fi is supposed to stimulate the mind, make us think about things. The drama in Sci-Fi comes from man's reaction to technology we don't have yet and how it will effect mankind. We don't currently have doomsdays or Venus pills -and those are key elements to thier stories. ALL Sci-Fi contains human reactions to ideas and things scientifically possible but not yet encountered. BTW I was glad to see that the world's oldest profession was still alive and well, just technologically updated in Mudd's Women.
OTOH you have Space Opera. "Space opera is a genre of science fiction that emphasizes romantic adventure, interstellar travel, and space battles where the main storyline is centered around interstellar conflict and character drama."
OR
"An increasingly popular genre of Science Fiction. The term is largely self explanatory in that a space opera is a drama that is simply put in the context of science fiction. Although it can be "hard" science fiction, space operas typically focus on the characters to a point where the actual setting (space obviously, but more specifically, a technological future) is largely unimportant."
Though always having elements of Space Opera in all of Trek, over time it has gotten more Space Opera and less Sci-Fi. The cerebral aspect of Trek has been completely obliterated. One character responsible for keeping it cerebral in TOS was Spock. Knowledge is acquired by comparison and contrast. This character offered us a contrast to humans that stimulated thought. He was a cerebral character with a hidden dramatic aspect. The difference between he and Humans (like business on Organia) took a turn for the worse in nuTrek.
Dennis said:
I believe I claimed I was disappointed in nuTrek - and I don't need any particular credibility to make this claim. But it is more polite to make the claim on this forum than on others.
Temis the Vorta said:
And one of the elements I was hoping would get jettisoned by the nuMovie so we could get closer to TOS Sci-Fi instead of the human saga/space opera that later Trek became. TOS had more of a "Twilight Zone" template. Got more of the "Star Wars" template instead - and one of my many disappointments with nuTrek.
I liked TOS better than later Trek because I think it has LESS of your, very correct, observation about human superiority. Vulcans were quite respected, admired - almost super-human in TOS. Spock is the one who had to condescend to admit that human ways did have some value. The beauty of the K/S/M trio was that their perspectives were equally valuable.Temis the Vorta said:
Skylark14 said:
A "heat cycle" varies from a "menstrual cycle". For more info:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estrous_cycle
Humans are one of the few species that mate when they aren't fertile. Some believe this evolved so that humans would associate emotions and feelings with sexuality instead of the pure, physiological induced sexuality of other species.
I will send DevilsEyes names through private messages - we don't know who is a member here and I wouldn't want to hurt feelings.
A possible mechanism for Vulcan evolution of reduced emotionality.
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/01/16/the-sins-of-the-fathers-take-2.html
Actually, as I noted in my previous post, TNG established that long before ENT.Not any more. ENT canonized the notion that Vulcans are more violently emotional than humans. (And no, you can't just say ENT doesn't count because it mostly sucks.
A lot of drama wants to make us think, its not exclusive to Sci-Fi. I'd say using your definition, Star Trek was not "Sci-Fi". If you think the Doomsday Machine or the Venus drug were what we where suppose to be thinking about at the ends of those episodes then you totally missed the point. Hell, if you think Mudd's Women were prostitutes I think you missed the point too.maryh said:
TOS in a nutshell.
Increasinglly popular?? When was this written? At the turn of the last Century? Again, an apt description of TOS.
Space Opera is a major element in TOS.
Not sure the spouting off facts and figures or claiming to be logical or emotionless translates fully as cerebral. Some of those facts could easly be said by the ships computer, Scotty or even McCoy. Spock's appeal goes far beyond his intellect. And I think he was stimulating more than thought in a few viewers.
I dont see TOS as any more cerebral than its contempory televised drama. Being set on a spaceship doesnt make it more cerebral than a show set on a ranch or a law office. I think Star Trek's Sci-Fi level was always pretty low to begin with. Its not a show about science or technology. Those things just provide a backdrop for the drama.
Are you sure we watched the same show? Because TOS was very much about "human saga/space opera". Twilight Zone was very much focused on human drama too. the Sci-Fi was a jumping off point for the stories and not the main focus.
Please, again are we watching the same show? TOS is all about humanities way being the better way. Spock was respected and admired my his crewmates but only when they weren't bitching about him or to him. But more often than not it was the human way that proves superior when Spock is in a tight spot.( though he is loath to admit it). I dont think we saw enough other Vulcans to get a read on how they were perceived. Sarek for sure got mixed reviews. And T'Pau is famous for turning down a seat of the UFP council. Again a mixed message.
Considering the pounding the Enterprise seemed able to take repeatedly and always came through (with Scotty's ingenuity as well) I hardly think that's likely.Or Starfleets use of substandard materials.
I've longed argued that ENT counts as donkey-doo and has zilch relevance in regards to TOS. And I maintain that. As it's already been mentioned it's nothing but revisionism.Not any more. ENT canonized the notion that Vulcans are more violently emotional than humans. (And no, you can't just say ENT doesn't count because it mostly sucks.
