• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spock & Uhura romance

That's why Uhura is perfect for him. She has emotions but will never be bedeviled by them. She gives Spock hope that there's a way out of his inner conflict (which of course is created by his Vulcan, not his human, half - Vulcans having more violent emotions than humans, apparently to a dysfunctional extent.)

This is the TOS board so the vision of Vulcans is that from TOS - not the revisionist Vulcans that appeared after the series ended, no doubt due to many of the writers (usually female) who focus on feelings when they write.

In another thread I've stated my opinion and backed it up with literature of the era that Vulcans in TOS were not these "highly emotional, feminine, deep feeling creatures keeping it all inside". That was a revisionist view probably resulting from the ST novel era when many writers simply could not do anything but describe a character's feelings.

Reply #147, 148 and 149 under this thread:

http://trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=118209&page=10


TOS Vulcans had supposed evolved beyond their passions into LESS passionate and emotional creatures that humans were. TOS Vulcans were cold, mysterious and logical. They didn't have to "struggle for control" - it was in their nature to be highly rational and logical, with little emotional input to their behavior. That was the beauty of Spock. Because he had a human mother, he had inherited emotions of human -- more powerful than those of his pure-bred Vulcan father and entire race. So, when he chose to follow the Vulcan way over the emotional human way, it was a dramatic, tough struggle for him, and it effected the audience in a powerful, unique fashion. Spock was alone with his struggle - the entire planet of Vulcans were NOT dysfunctional, nor could they relate to Human emotions. Pure bred Vulcans were really logical and rational by nature - not just faking their unemotionality.

Spock chose the Vulcan route because he thinks it is the best way and strives to be like the pure-bred Vulcans (notice his mother also thinks the Vulcan way is better). He is ashamed that his humans half has given him human'like emotions and fights this, denies the emotions, deludes himself and others - it's a fascinating struggle in the TOS era. He views behavior influenced by emotions as bad. He doesn't want to resolve the conflict - he wants to be emotionless. He respects the Vulcan way and wishes he could be more like one.

Many seem to want emotional-repressed Vulcans and romantic Vulcans. They do not appeal to me, because their "differentness" from the rest of the species we see in Trek has been lost. If we do not like nuTrek and the romancing of Spock.. it is not because we don't see it in the TOS episodes. It is because it violates the characterization of TOS Spock - and with it much of the cerebralness and the emotionless, logical perspective he brought to it.
 
That's why Uhura is perfect for him. She has emotions but will never be bedeviled by them. She gives Spock hope that there's a way out of his inner conflict (which of course is created by his Vulcan, not his human, half - Vulcans having more violent emotions than humans, apparently to a dysfunctional extent.)

This is the TOS board so the vision of Vulcans is that from TOS - not the revisionist Vulcans that appeared after the series ended, no doubt due to many of the writers (usually female) who focus on feelings when they write.

In another thread I've stated my opinion and backed it up with literature of the era that Vulcans in TOS were not these "highly emotional, feminine, deep feeling creatures keeping it all inside". That was a revisionist view probably resulting from the ST novel era when many writers simply could not do anything but describe a character's feelings.
Well, this is very interesting. Many of the writers (usually female)? :confused: Which writers are these? I would like a list, please. I am very curious to know why you chose to emphasize the writers' gender, of all things. I don't know which female writers are those supposed to be, but what I do know is that the writer who was crucial in writing Spock and Vulcans in TOS was female (D.C. Fontana). It's interesting that you don't mention that fact. So, does she fall into your despised group of female writers who are too emotional? But she wrote for TOS, so that would go against your claim that Vulcans were not written as emotional in TOS?

And then there's the line about "highly emotional, feminine, deep feeling creatures keeping it all inside". Ummm... feminine? Who said anything about Vulcans being feminine? How does being emotional have anything to do with being feminine or masculine? :vulcan:

It seems that your mode of thinking is very dependent on gender stereotypes:

emotional = feminine = inferior
=/
rational = masculine = superior

Just like in your previous post about Byronic hero where you choose to denigrate literary classics written by - surprise, surprise - women, writing them off as "Harlequin romances", which they are not (and nevermind that the writers in question - Jane Austen, Charlotte Bronte, Emily Bronte - are completely different from each other), while, for some reason, you forgot about the male authors who originated the Byronic hero in the first place (well, obviously) or followed into Byron's footsteps with Byronic heroes of their own... or the male authors who wrote other Victorian novels that were just as focused on romance as those you mentioned. Why not choose to thrash Byron, Pushkin or Lermontov when you're at it? Or why not throw Dickens (Great Expectations, Our Mutual Friend) or Hardy (Tess of d'Urbervilles, Jude the Obscure, Far From the Madding Crowd, etc.) into the mix as authors of what you call "Harlequin romances"? How interesting that it's just works by female authors - even though they happened to be completely different from each other - that you choose to put into your little "Harlequin romances" box...

Well, some of us neither believe in the cliche of "emotional = feminine" (I think it's utter nonsense), nor think that "emotional = inferior"... nor that "feminine = inferior".
 
^^^

One of TOS's recurring themes was that Logic nor Emotion was better. Sometimes one was shown to be superior, whereas at other times the other was shown to be superior.

emotional = feminine = inferior -- your association, not mine. I see value in both emotion and logic. I see value in both female and male. TOS Spock represented logic. It wasn't better or worse, but offered a differing perspective.
 
That's why Uhura is perfect for him. She has emotions but will never be bedeviled by them. She gives Spock hope that there's a way out of his inner conflict (which of course is created by his Vulcan, not his human, half - Vulcans having more violent emotions than humans, apparently to a dysfunctional extent.)


This is the TOS board so the vision of Vulcans is that from TOS - not the revisionist Vulcans that appeared after the series ended, no doubt due to many of the writers (usually female) who focus on feelings when they write.
.
Ah the Vulcans from TOS. That would include Spock ( who's half human), Sarek (who married a human. Hardly typical), T'Pau and everone's favorite two timing back stabber, T'Pring. Not much to go on there. We also know from TOS that Vulcans are much like their Romulan cousins and only their devotion to logic and control of their emotions keep them from acting on their baser impulses. (Though not so much in T'Pring's case.

TOS Vulcans had supposed evolved beyond their passions into LESS passionate and emotional creatures that humans were. TOS Vulcans were cold, mysterious and logical. They didn't have to "struggle for control" - it was in their nature to be highly rational and logical, with little emotional input to their behavior. That was the beauty of Spock. Because he had a human mother, he had inherited emotions of human -- more powerful than those of his pure-bred Vulcan father and entire race.
Sorry, I dont belive you inherit emotions. Or that Vulcans are naturally rational and logical. Its a learned behaviour and achived through control and discipline, not genetics or evolution.
 
Sorry, I dont belive you inherit emotions. Or that Vulcans are naturally rational and logical. Its a learned behaviour and achived through control and discipline, not genetics or evolution.

But you DO accept that Vulcan emotions are supposedly inherently MORE powerful than a humans - as the revisionism says? If so, is that genetic or learned?
 
Sorry, I dont belive you inherit emotions. Or that Vulcans are naturally rational and logical. Its a learned behaviour and achived through control and discipline, not genetics or evolution.

But you DO accept that Vulcan emotions are supposedly inherently MORE powerful than a humans - as the revisionism says? If so, is that genetic or learned?
Going by TOS I'd say there might be a genetic factor. They seem more aggressive than humans when their control is compromised. Over all though, its a silly concept.

ETA: "Amok Time". It's right there in the title. This wasn't just Spock. The Vulcans know all about it and have special words and ceremonies built around this loss of control and upswelling of emotions. Its hardwired into their DNA and no amount of logic,control and disipline can stop it. It hits them amd Bam!, it's like Red hour on Beta III. When Spock was trapped on Sarpeidon he reverted to the primitive and emotional ways of his Vulcan ancestors. ( not his human ones) Again must be something in his genetics
 
Last edited:
Sorry, I dont belive you inherit emotions. Or that Vulcans are naturally rational and logical. Its a learned behaviour and achived through control and discipline, not genetics or evolution.

But you DO accept that Vulcan emotions are supposedly inherently MORE powerful than a humans - as the revisionism says? If so, is that genetic or learned?
Going by TOS I'd say there might be a genetic factor. They seem more aggressive than humans when their control is compromised. Over all though, its a silly concept.

I'm simply explaining why some of us won't be watching nuTrek.

What you found as silly, I found as one of the the most thought provoking, and interesting concepts presented in Trek. If we discover life on other planets - besides physical differences, or cultural differences, or differences in the methods of communication (telepathy perhaps?), or mental abilities (aliens may be less intellegent or more!!) etc -- could they differ from us emotionally? I think I see differences in the levels of emotionality within species right here on Earth. Why not other planets? Though DevilsEyes may get on my case - females tend to be more emotional and sensitive than males -- and that is even within the same species!!

I find lots of food for thought in this idea. And the trio that K/S/M represented balanced each other perfectly.
 
Last edited:
So you're in agreement with that "revision" but not the others? Star Trek in general and TOS in particular promoted the idea that folks are alike all over. ( and if you arent like us, you should be ;) )

I think men are just as emotional was women, they ( well we) just express it in different ways and at different times. And culturally we are programmed to keep certain emotions private.
 
So you're in agreement with that "revision" but not the others? Star Trek in general and TOS in particular promoted the idea that folks are alike all over. ( and if you arent like us, you should be ;) )

I think men are just as emotional was women, they ( well we) just express it in different ways and at different times. And culturally we are programmed to keep certain emotions private.

The idea that we are all alike kind of makes the IDIC concept useless ;). I do think the differing hormone levels present in different genders effects behavior. Valuing differences is as positive as valuing sameness. Comparison and contrast are one of the essential elements of learning and discovery. I hope we aren't ever all the same. It would be very boring.
 
At least the medallion was!!
It seemed to keep a low profile in TOS before ( of course) and after it was introduced.
It didn't need to be introduced. TOS was full of conflict before and after.
Conflcits? I thought we were talking about IDIC. The C stands for combination, right? No one, including Spock, invoked or mentioned IDIC when dealing with cultures or ideas different than their own.
 
It seemed to keep a low profile in TOS before ( of course) and after it was introduced.
It didn't need to be introduced. TOS was full of conflict before and after.
Conflcits? I thought we were talking about IDIC. The C stands for combination, right? No one, including Spock, invoked or mentioned IDIC when dealing with cultures or ideas different than their own.

We are hogging this thread with simpleness. D stands for diversity. Diverse should be valued. Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad, evil, wrong etc. As Spock says:

MIRANDA: I understand, Mister Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.
SPOCK: And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty.

Notice ways is plural.

I am not of the body and I will NOT be absorbed!!
 
It didn't need to be introduced. TOS was full of conflict before and after.
Conflcits? I thought we were talking about IDIC. The C stands for combination, right? No one, including Spock, invoked or mentioned IDIC when dealing with cultures or ideas different than their own.

We are hogging this thread with simpleness. D stands for diversity. Diverse should be valued. Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad, evil, wrong etc. As Spock says:

MIRANDA: I understand, Mister Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.
SPOCK: And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty.

Notice ways is plural.

I am not of the body and I will NOT be absorbed!!
And????
 
So you're in agreement with that "revision" but not the others? Star Trek in general and TOS in particular promoted the idea that folks are alike all over. ( and if you arent like us, you should be ;) )

I think men are just as emotional was women, they ( well we) just express it in different ways and at different times. And culturally we are programmed to keep certain emotions private.

The idea that we are all alike kind of makes the IDIC concept useless ;). I do think the differing hormone levels present in different genders effects behavior.
Higher testosterone levels hardly make a person more rational/less emotional.

There are certain differences in the biology of men and women that lead to such things as statistical differences in the ability to read facial expressions or rotate objects in one's head. But being more or less emotional has nothing to do with one's sex. There are differences in gender roles, again depending on the culture in question. Men are usually taught to hide certain emotions (sorrow, pain, tenderness, fear) and encouraged to show others (such as anger or desire), while it's the opposite with women. It's learned behavior.
 
Conflcits? I thought we were talking about IDIC. The C stands for combination, right? No one, including Spock, invoked or mentioned IDIC when dealing with cultures or ideas different than their own.

We are hogging this thread with simpleness. D stands for diversity. Diverse should be valued. Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad, evil, wrong etc. As Spock says:

MIRANDA: I understand, Mister Spock. The glory of creation is in its infinite diversity.
SPOCK: And the ways our differences combine to create meaning and beauty.

Notice ways is plural.

I am not of the body and I will NOT be absorbed!!
And????

Well McCoy seemed to appreciate diversity:
""In this galaxy there's a mathematical probability of three million Earth type planets, and in all the universe three million million galaxies like this, and in all of that, and perhaps more, only one of each of us. Don't destroy the one named Kirk."

Diversity is a beautiful thing! It's not a question of making everyone the same, it's about seeing the beauty in, respecting and appreciating things that are different than ourselves!! After all variety is the spice of life.
 
So you're in agreement with that "revision" but not the others? Star Trek in general and TOS in particular promoted the idea that folks are alike all over. ( and if you arent like us, you should be ;) )

I think men are just as emotional was women, they ( well we) just express it in different ways and at different times. And culturally we are programmed to keep certain emotions private.

The idea that we are all alike kind of makes the IDIC concept useless ;). I do think the differing hormone levels present in different genders effects behavior.
Higher testosterone levels hardly make a person more rational/less emotional.

There are certain differences in the biology of men and women that lead to such things as statistical differences in the ability to read facial expressions or rotate objects in one's head. But being more or less emotional has nothing to do with one's sex. There are differences in gender roles, again depending on the culture in question. Men are usually taught to hide certain emotions (sorrow, pain, tenderness, fear) and encouraged to show others (such as anger or desire), while it's the opposite with women. It's learned behavior.

Seems to me I get more moody and sensitive at certain times - no doubt caused by hormones. I don't feel I have to deny that. I see the beauty associated with that sensitvity. One thing I think sensitivity leads to is intuition, and better awareness. It doesn't have to be seen as a flaw or inferior trait, it can be an asset too. Celebrate diversity! Kirk does:

KIRK [on monitor]: Bones, Spock. since you are playing this tape, we will assume that I am dead, that the tactical situation is critical, and both of you are locked in mortal combat. It means, Spock, that you have control of the ship and are probably making the most difficult decisions of your career. I can offer only one small piece of advice, for whatever it's worth. Use every scrap of knowledge and logic you have to save the ship. But temper your judgment with intuitive insight. I believe you have those qualities, but if you can't find them in yourself, seek out McCoy. Ask his advice. And if you find it sound, take it. Bones, you've heard what I've just told Spock. Help him if you can. But remember he is the Captain. His decisions must be followed without question. You might find that he is capable of human insight and human error. They are most difficult to defend, but you will find that he is deserving of the same loyalty and confidence each of you have given me. Take care.
 
Star Trek in general and TOS in particular promoted the idea that folks are alike all over.

Not really. While aliens lost their mystique during TNG (they did originally have them - hence the hand-wringing over Riker going into the holodeck to challenge Worf), the aliens of TOS were often (not always, true) represented as something other than just plain folks with extra nostrils. They were presented as embracing or embodying certain concepts which we may have been able to understand (or not), but which certainly weren't like us.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top