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What's the deal with the "French surrendering" jokes?

http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

Is distorted, but pretty funny none the less.

I like the two rules for French military success.

1) France's armies are victorious only when not led by a Frenchman(Joan of Arc, Napoleon).

2) France only wins when America does most of the fighting.

All joking aside however I chalk up much of France's dismal military record to a rather horrible strategic geographical position. No one can wage war in western Europe without going through France.

#2 is kind of offensive considering that in WWI 1,3 million french soldiers died (+ a couple hundred thousand civilians), and "only" 120K Americans and in WWII +500K French and "only" 220K Americans. So who did more of the fighting?

And anyway, France's military record is not dismal at all. France managed to become and stay a major power in Europe longer and more consistently than any other country.

eta: damn, the iguana beat me to the punch. ;)
 
Can't really just use numbers of the dead as a statistic to show who did more fighting, though, it doesn't lead anywhere. Russia lost almost 24 million people in WW2. Germany lost between 7-9 million. Russia didn't do 3x the fighting, they fought each other...
 
It's a culturally inspired joke.

People joke about Americans being fat, loudmouthed, belligerant arseholes.
People joke about the English being repressed, with bad teeth, and even worse cooking.
People joke about the Scots being alcoholic, heroin addicts who deep fry every meal they eat.
People joke about Australians all being convicts.
People joke about....

Seeing a pattern here?

It's a bit of light-hearted ribbing. Countries all over the world share this kind of banter, especially when they have a close shared history, like England and France do, so get over it. It's only serious when PC arseholes make it serious.
 
It's a culturally inspired joke.

People joke about Americans being fat, loudmouthed, belligerant arseholes.
People joke about the English being repressed, with bad teeth, and even worse cooking.
People joke about the Scots being alcoholic, heroin addicts who deep fry every meal they eat.
People joke about Australians all being convicts.
People joke about....

Seeing a pattern here?

It's a bit of light-hearted ribbing. Countries all over the world share this kind of banter, especially when they have a close shared history, like England and France do, so get over it. It's only serious when PC arseholes make it serious.

Have to agree here. Many of you have far too thinned skins. It's a joke people. :rolleyes:
 
It's not merely surrenderings, though that's the common joke. Amongst some U.S. AMERICANS, the French have a reputation of being considered "chicken shits", whether it's deserved or not. A lot of it is based on WW2 and post WW2 stuff...

The Vichy French government's deportation of Jews to the Nazis.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7893127.stm

The Vichy French opposing allied landings in North Africa.

Not letting the USA fly bombers over French territory when Reagan bombed Lybia. (People hyped that up when I was young.)

The UK hates France for it's own reasons.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3634345/30-reasons-why-we-hate-the-French.html

#30 is a good reason to hate the British. ;)

Anyway, it's flattery, better to be hated than forgotten! Who the fuck hates Luxembourg...maybe the French...
 
Can't really just use numbers of the dead as a statistic to show who did more fighting, though, it doesn't lead anywhere. Russia lost almost 24 million people in WW2. Germany lost between 7-9 million. Russia didn't do 3x the fighting, they fought each other...

Indeed. If we're going to talk about France in World War I, we should talk about how the bravery, steadfastness, and self-sacrifice of her soldiers allowed them to overcome serious deficiencies in her military leadership until Petain became supreme commander in 1917.

We should talk about how France kept on fighting for more than four years, even after the Germans occupied the richest, most industrialized, and most productive part of the country.

We should talk about how the French withstood the full fury of the enemy for months in 1916, during the Battle of Verdun, and still managed to scrape together the resources to make a major contribution to the Battle of the Somme.

We should talk about how the French Army never folded, even after the Nivelle Offensive of 1917 sparked widespread mutinies. And about how the war would have been lost, no matter what the British and Americans did, if the French had thrown in the towel the way the Russians did. Every great Continental army eventually fell apart under the strain of heavy losses and repeated defeats--except the French.

In fact, to judge from the horrible losses that France sustained during World War I, and the damage inflicted on their country, it might have been better for the French if they had all been cowards. For France, World War I was a Pyrrhic victory. They would have been better off surrendering. And I'm sure that fact was weighing on a lot of people's minds in 1940.
 
Can't really just use numbers of the dead as a statistic to show who did more fighting, though, it doesn't lead anywhere. Russia lost almost 24 million people in WW2. Germany lost between 7-9 million. Russia didn't do 3x the fighting, they fought each other...

Ok, but it's an indicator, and it doesn't point towards support for Caliburn24's comment, to say the least. ;)
 
#2 is kind of offensive considering that in WWI 1,3 million french soldiers died (+ a couple hundred thousand civilians), and "only" 120K Americans and in WWII +500K French and "only" 220K Americans. So who did more of the fighting?

Here's a little-known fact: more Canadians died in World War I than Americans.

Of course, that's because we were in it from the beginning, and the USA joined late. In fact, historian Tim Travers has argued that the German Army had already been defeated, even before the AEF began to make its weight felt.

It was the fear of the United States--of having to fight a country the size of Europe, after more than four years of fighting the other great powers--that finally made the Germans despair in 1918. They tried to win the war before the Americans arrived, in the spring of 1918. They failed. And they gave up, before most American soldiers even saw combat. By the autumn of 1918, German soldiers were surrendering en masse.

I've often thought that, for most of the US Army, World War I must have been a pretty good war. Travel to Europe, train a bit, see Paris, scare the Germans into asking for an armistice--and then go home, all at government expense. Good deal.
 
The "French Surrenders" jokes started after France pulled out of NATO. The French forced the removal of foreign troops and nuclear weapons. This angered some in the US as they saw it as a French "pre-surrender" to the soviets during the cold war. The assumption was that France pulled out of NATO so that the soviets wouldn't nuke them along with the rest of western Europe.

The joke was carried on as various French administrations decided to negotiate with terrorists or as a comment above pointed out, specifically did things to not anger muslim terrorists like not allowing bombers airspace access during the Lybian raids.

It's an unfair sterotype, but then, most sterotypes are. France is one of the only governments who have had the balls to kick the crap out of greenpeace so they ain't all bad.
 
I usually hear jokes about the French surrendering in conjunction with jokes about Italian war heros. As others have said, it'd be nice if there were any truth or humor in them.
 
The "French surrending" stuff reminds me of this:D:
The USA won the World War II! Without us, the Europeans would be now speaking German and Japanese!
I read similar comment on a BBC message board yesterday:rommie:
The real turning point in WWII was the Battle of Stalingrad, where the Germans where defeated..and they spent basicly the rest of the time running from the Soviets..all the way to Berlin.
But I guess they dont teach that either in the American schools..maybe its because of the Cold War additudes:shifty:
 
To be frank, I wouldn't care if the jokes were at least funny.

I didn't realize the French surrendered their sense of humour as well. :cool:

I kid, I kid. :p

It is just good natured ribbing from me. I've been to France and it is a wonderful country with a fantastic culture and a determined and strong-willed people. Those in the Resistance in WWII were badass.
 
Honestly, I'm not French but the jokes bother me too.

It bothers me because I know history. It honestly takes anti-French prejudice from the British, transports it to America, takes some weird combination of World War II and a distorted picture of Vietnam (because we apparently did so much better) and then rewrites history to make it seem like France surrenders a lot.

BTW, although it was probably intensified by the Iraq War opposition, the idea that France surrenders a lot predates it (there's the Simpsons episode where Willy calls them "Cheese-eatin' surrender monkeys").

EDIT: I'm going to have to address the albinoblacksheep thing in another post. Like I said, the France surrendering thing bothers me as a history major (or I guess I can say graduate with a history degree now). Shit like that, even if it's just supposed to be a joke, perpetuates ignorance.
 
It's a culturally inspired joke.

People joke about Americans being fat, loudmouthed, belligerant arseholes.
People joke about the English being repressed, with bad teeth, and even worse cooking.
People joke about the Scots being alcoholic, heroin addicts who deep fry every meal they eat.
People joke about Australians all being convicts.
People joke about....

Seeing a pattern here?

It's a bit of light-hearted ribbing. Countries all over the world share this kind of banter, especially when they have a close shared history, like England and France do, so get over it. It's only serious when PC arseholes make it serious.
Ethnic stereotypes are all dumb, but I was specifically interested in where this one comes from? And since most people here seem to think that it is related to the Nazi occupation in WW2, if you want to find an equivalent, it would be more like... how about, if someone made jokes about blacks and slavery? I guess you'd also say that this was only serious if PC arseholes made it so... :vulcan:
 
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