Same canon?

[Captrek]

Technically the multiverse should have a shared past - if the nuTrek crew went back to 1986 they should bump into ShatnerKirk and NimoySpock saving the Whales. If they go back to 2064 they'll meet Riker and Geordi. If they go back to 2002 they'll find Archer, T'Pol, Xindi and a bunch of hookers. If they go back to 1996 they'll meet Captain Janeway and crazy Braxton. If they go back to 2151-2155 they'll watch episodes of Enterprise (let's hope they skip the first two seasons!) and so on.

Interesting. I always thought a lot of those other time travel events were more of a predestination paradox, and I'm not sure how they could be reconciled with the multiverse concept.

Data’s head must be a predestination paradox, but in the case of transparent aluminum, there is another possible explanation that I think is kind of fun:

In the “original” timeline, Dr. Nichols discovers the formula for transparent aluminum. Then McCoy and Scotty go back in time and give him the formula shortly before he was going to discover it for himself. The rest of history unfolds pretty much the same way, except Dr. Nichols’ conscience is troubled. He thinks he got the formula from two mysterious strangers who appeared out of nowhere with bogus identities, traded the formula for a giant water tank, and were never heard from again. He feels guilty about passing it off as his own work and has no idea that it really is his own.

 

[Jeyl]

If someone goes back in time, a new reality is created, but the old one still exists. It's that simple, folks !!!

City on the Edge of Forever. McCoy runs though the guardian, changes the course of history and everything in their reality gets screwed up because of it.

Or what about Star Trek First Contact? Earth obviously changed by being invaded by the Borg in the past, and they didn't even pass through the rift yet.

I can't believe that we're now going with a time travel philosophy written by the writers of the first two Transformers movies over writers like Ron D. Moore, Harlen Ellison and even Gene Roddenberry.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Those writers of the first two Transformers movies also write Fringe. They can write smart when they're not writing a film designed to sell children's toys.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Re: i'm new...

Fate guiding certain things happened in Voyager too: A flashforward scene with Kes where she scanned a Krenim torpedo was later re-enacted by Seven of Nine in "Year of Hell".

Explain that.

That's not really fate, it's coincidence as a result of causal determinism. If it was fate, more of Kes' visions of the future would have come to pass. I don't think any of them did.

 

[Jeyl]

Those writers of the first two Transformers movies also write Fringe. They can write smart when they're not writing a film designed to sell children's toys.

Well, if that's how these writers treat their jobs by going at it like "Oh, Transformers was a toy line, right? We don't really have to work on this!", they're more unprofessional than I thought.

 

[JarodRussell]

I have come to the conclusion that Orci/Kurtzman are more following the mindset of a producer than that of a scriptwriter. They think way too much in terms of "audience from 4-14 won't get it", "franchise dictates" and "it's a toyline, so what?". They don't really care about the story or characters when they write it, they care about the box office. And THAT is NOT the job of a writer. Transformers felt like it, Star Trek felt like it, Mission Impossible 3 felt like it, the new Hawaii 5-0 remake feels like it...

In the Orciverse, Time's Arrow, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact and The Voyage Home simply can't happen. He retconned time travel not to work that way.

Actually it's incorrect.

- If someone goes back in time, a new reality is created, but the old one still exists.

Lets take a look at what happened in Yesterdays Enterprise.

- The Enterprise C went forward in time. (it stayed in the same reality and skipped a few years forward).
- Since the Enterprise C was absent, hostory took a disasterous course.
- When the Enterprise C went back --> NEW REALITY.
- This new reality is what we've seen right from the beginning of TNG (barring other Time Travel incidents).

It's that simple, folks !!!

It's not that simple. When the Enterprise-C went through the anomaly, you see the entire timeline change. And Guinan notices that the timeline changed and must be reset (similar to First Contact, when they are somehow protected by the changes, Guinan has some ability to sense changes to the timeline). That is not possible in the interpretation of time travel that Orci follows. And in Time's Arrow there is a predestination paradox. There are no predestination paradoxes in the Orciverse.


Actually, time travel and alternate universes in Star Trek have been really simple. Not scientifically accurate, but simple.

There are parallel universes. Look at the mirror universe episode, look at Parallels. And EACH of these universes has its OWN timeline. This gets evident in the ENT episode "A Mirror Darkly". The Defiant leaves the Prime Universe, switches into the Mirror Universe, AND travels back through time in the Mirror Universe. You can beam back and forth from one parallel universe to the other (as they did in TOS and DS9 by beaming), and you could slingshot around a sun in each of these universes to travel along the timeline that belongs to each of these universes. Just try it, you can apply that to every time travel and parallel universe episode that has ever been done in Trek, EVEN the new movie (in fact, with the obvious changes like stardates, uniforms, registry numbers, etc... in the Kelvin era, one could assume that Nero and Spock - just like the Defiant - ended up in a mirror universe and travelled back in time).

But since Orci insists on something else...

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: i'm new...

Those writers of the first two Transformers movies also write Fringe. They can write smart when they're not writing a film designed to sell children's toys.

Well, if that's how these writers treat their jobs by going at it like "Oh, Transformers was a toy line, right? We don't really have to work on this!", they're more unprofessional than I thought.

I'm sorry a film series aimed at ADHD kids didn't meet your high standards of storytelling.

Honestly, what did you expect?

 

[JarodRussell]

Re: i'm new...

Those writers of the first two Transformers movies also write Fringe. They can write smart when they're not writing a film designed to sell children's toys.

Well, if that's how these writers treat their jobs by going at it like "Oh, Transformers was a toy line, right? We don't really have to work on this!", they're more unprofessional than I thought.

I'm sorry a film series aimed at ADHD kids didn't meet your high standards of storytelling.

Honestly, what did you expect?

I think the point is that they felt the need to aim it at ADHD kids.

 

[Smiley]

Time travel worked however the creators wanted it to work throughout the 1966-2005 period, so why be surprised when the 2009 version does not match up with all of the various forms encountered in those shows and movies?

Anyway, there's nothing that says the Guardian or slingshot methods of time travel can't be done in the Abramsverse just because a singularity transported Nero and Spock to another universe and time.

 

[DonIago]

Re: i'm new...

Well, if that's how these writers treat their jobs by going at it like "Oh, Transformers was a toy line, right? We don't really have to work on this!", they're more unprofessional than I thought.

I'm sorry a film series aimed at ADHD kids didn't meet your high standards of storytelling.

Honestly, what did you expect?

I think the point is that they felt the need to aim it at ADHD kids.

Or perhaps they were directed to aim it at such.

 

[Devon]

I have come to the conclusion that Orci/Kurtzman are more following the mindset of a producer than that of a scriptwriter. They think way too much in terms of "audience from 4-14 won't get it", "franchise dictates" and "it's a toyline, so what?". They don't really care about the story or characters when they write it, they care about the box office. And THAT is NOT the job of a writer.

When hired by a major studio to write a film that is getting millions of dollars soaked into it... then it is their job. The rest, as you mentioned, is your own conclusion, as incorrect as it may be.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

I have come to the conclusion that Orci/Kurtzman are more following the mindset of a producer than that of a scriptwriter. They think way too much in terms of "audience from 4-14 won't get it", "franchise dictates" and "it's a toyline, so what?". They don't really care about the story or characters when they write it, they care about the box office. And THAT is NOT the job of a writer. Transformers felt like it, Star Trek felt like it, Mission Impossible 3 felt like it, the new Hawaii 5-0 remake feels like it...

In the Orciverse, Time's Arrow, Yesterday's Enterprise, First Contact and The Voyage Home simply can't happen. He retconned time travel not to work that way.

Actually it's incorrect.

- If someone goes back in time, a new reality is created, but the old one still exists.

Lets take a look at what happened in Yesterdays Enterprise.

- The Enterprise C went forward in time. (it stayed in the same reality and skipped a few years forward).
- Since the Enterprise C was absent, hostory took a disasterous course.
- When the Enterprise C went back --> NEW REALITY.
- This new reality is what we've seen right from the beginning of TNG (barring other Time Travel incidents).

It's that simple, folks !!!

It's not that simple. When the Enterprise-C went through the anomaly, you see the entire timeline change. And Guinan notices that the timeline changed and must be reset (similar to First Contact, when they are somehow protected by the changes, Guinan has some ability to sense changes to the timeline). That is not possible in the interpretation of time travel that Orci follows. And in Time's Arrow there is a predestination paradox. There are no predestination paradoxes in the Orciverse.


Actually, time travel and alternate universes in Star Trek have been really simple. Not scientifically accurate, but simple.

There are parallel universes. Look at the mirror universe episode, look at Parallels. And EACH of these universes has its OWN timeline. This gets evident in the ENT episode "A Mirror Darkly". The Defiant leaves the Prime Universe, switches into the Mirror Universe, AND travels back through time in the Mirror Universe. You can beam back and forth from one parallel universe to the other (as they did in TOS and DS9 by beaming), and you could slingshot around a sun in each of these universes to travel along the timeline that belongs to each of these universes. Just try it, you can apply that to every time travel and parallel universe episode that has ever been done in Trek, EVEN the new movie (in fact, with the obvious changes like stardates, uniforms, registry numbers, etc... in the Kelvin era, one could assume that Nero and Spock - just like the Defiant - ended up in a mirror universe and travelled back in time).

But since Orci insists on something else...

The nail has been hit quite squarely on the head in this post. Very well stated indeed.

 

[Ryan8bit]

Time travel worked however the creators wanted it to work throughout the 1966-2005 period, so why be surprised when the 2009 version does not match up with all of the various forms encountered in those shows and movies?

It's probably because time travel never had such radical ramifications on how future stories will pan out. Most all of the stories that involved it were one and done.

And I think lots of people just thought time travel was just too convoluted to make sense of in the first place. The very fact that it was handled with mutable and immutable timelines just made things not very sensible. With this movie they now suggest something entirely different that hasn't been seen before, which is the method of a mutable timeline which tries to repair itself, as if the timeline is some sort of conscious entity or if there is some sort of guide over fate. For as much as some complain about characters looking different, ships not looking right, or stardates being wrong, most of those things pale in comparison to the sudden introduction of concepts of fate.

Anyway, there's nothing that says the Guardian or slingshot methods of time travel can't be done in the Abramsverse

Well, except for the producers saying that they wouldn't be using time travel, and that they wanted it to be harder to achieve. I think they said somewhere that they didn't want them to just be able to slingshot whenever they wanted, which is just another sign of a veiled reboot.

 

[OneBuckFilms]

I have come to the conclusion that Orci/Kurtzman are more following the mindset of a producer than that of a scriptwriter. They think way too much in terms of "audience from 4-14 won't get it", "franchise dictates" and "it's a toyline, so what?". They don't really care about the story or characters when they write it, they care about the box office. And THAT is NOT the job of a writer. Transformers felt like it, Star Trek felt like it, Mission Impossible 3 felt like it, the new Hawaii 5-0 remake feels like it...

A couple of facts for you:
- They were initially scared and intimidated about writing a Star Trek story.
- They did a LOT of research to try and find a way to keep existing Canon intact while creating something fresh.
- It is extremely well documented that Orci and Kurtzman were/are BIG Star Trek fans BEFORE they ever became writers.
- Like ANY and ALL writers, they did have goals to meet in terms of making Star Trek accessible to non-fans.

It's not that simple. When the Enterprise-C went through the anomaly, you see the entire timeline change.

That was dramatically intended, but you ACTUALLY saw a wavy effect.

And Guinan notices that the timeline changed and must be reset (similar to First Contact, when they are somehow protected by the changes, Guinan has some ability to sense changes to the timeline).

She senses that something is wrong, yes. Little is actually known about where/how this capability is really manifest.

That is not possible in the interpretation of time travel that Orci follows.

Actually, it's not technically possible in the scenario intended.

And in Time's Arrow there is a predestination paradox. There are no predestination paradoxes in the Orciverse.

You are correct, but the Head going back in time creates a new Reality, in which the same future events will take place.

Actually, time travel and alternate universes in Star Trek have been really simple. Not scientifically accurate, but simple.

Very true.

There are parallel universes. Look at the mirror universe episode, look at Parallels. And EACH of these universes has its OWN timeline. This gets evident in the ENT episode "A Mirror Darkly". The Defiant leaves the Prime Universe, switches into the Mirror Universe, AND travels back through time in the Mirror Universe. You can beam back and forth from one parallel universe to the other (as they did in TOS and DS9 by beaming), and you could slingshot around a sun in each of these universes to travel along the timeline that belongs to each of these universes. Just try it, you can apply that to every time travel and parallel universe episode that has ever been done in Trek, EVEN the new movie (in fact, with the obvious changes like stardates, uniforms, registry numbers, etc... in the Kelvin era, one could assume that Nero and Spock - just like the Defiant - ended up in a mirror universe and travelled back in time).

But since Orci insists on something else...

Perhaps the middle ground would be that the Alternate Reality scenario may not quite apply to every scenario, and be dependent on the method of backward time travel.

 

[M'Sharak]

^ OneBuckFilms, did you really mean that lengthy quote to read as if JarrodRussell was having a conversation with himself? You've got a number of things attributed to him which I'm not sure he actually ever said.


Edit:

OK, fuck it. I think I've got it sorted out so that what Jarrod said is properly attributed to Jarrod and what you said isn't attributed to Jarrod. From here on, please use the Quote function in the manner in which it is intended to be used.

 

[Devon]

Here's an interesting article:

http://io9.com/5238315/6-theories-of-time-travel-in-star-trek

 

[Jeyl]

- They did a LOT of research to try and find a way to keep existing Canon intact while creating something fresh.

And what did they do with that research?

(In regards to Delta Vega)"We moved the planet to suit our purposes. The familiarity of the name seemed more important as an Easter egg than a new name [would have been]."

So if they were to say...write a Star Wars movie and a character decides to land on a very tropical planet that has oceans and snow covered territories, they'll decide to call it Tatooine even though the planet is for all intents and purposes NOT the Tatooine that was previously established. They named it that simply because the name sounds familiar.

 

[F. King Daniel]

They called it "Delta Vega" because it's a cool name for a planet. Delta Vega was hardly Romulus, Vulcan, Kronos or even Bajor - it was a one-shot bit part world of no more importance than any other planet-of-the-week. The writers thought it cute that their James Kirk's first alien world would have the same name as the first world TOS Kirk visited. That's all. It's not some unholy plot against Gene Rodenberry's creation.

 

[Jeyl]

Delta Vega was hardly Romulus, Vulcan, Kronos or even Bajor

Ya, whatever planet they don't misname, they just destroy. It's a better trade off by far. Still, if honor is in the details, they still got Vulcan's orange colored atmosphere wrong.

The writers thought it cute that their James Kirk's first alien world would have the same name as the first world TOS Kirk visited.

But it wasn't. The TOS kirk had visited many alien worlds before Delta Vega. Worlds like Tarsus IV where they witnessed Kodos kill 4,000 colonists, he visited Axanar when he was a first year cadet in the academy, he surveyed the planet Neural as a lieutenant, and had the traumatic experience in dealing with the cloud creature on Tycho IV.

Now, if you really want to get technical, the very first planet we ever saw Kirk visit was planet M-113.

 

[I-Am-Zim]

"Cute"...Yeppers. That's just what Star Trek needs. More cuteness.......I say they should just replace the tribbles with ewoks in the next movie. That would really be "cute".

But, not as cute as blowing up Vulcan or Romulus. And definitely cuter than "moving" Delta Vega and changing its atmosphere to "suit their purposes".