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Size comparison Constitution and Intrepid?

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@Vance - A few questions then (not that it'll change your mind)...

Why model the density of the starship Enterprise to a real-world ship that is suppose to float on water? Aren't you limiting the density deliberately?

Why compare to Star Wars when TOS preceded it by nearly a decade?

Why is it not possible to consider advanced, very dense materials for starship construction? Is it just not conceivable for science fiction?

Why couldn't the mass be something arbitrary like 300,000 metric tons or 90,000 metric tons?

I understand that the "1,000,000 million tons" do not mesh with your sensibilities, but this is Star Trek. How is "warp drive" not bullshit? Or putting the bridge on the top most exposed level of the ship be not dumb-ass? Star Trek is what it is, IMHO :)
 
Why model the density of the starship Enterprise to a real-world ship that is suppose to float on water?

Because it's not an issue of bouyancy, but the relative density of the vessel. Remember, the Enterprise is lessly-packed than the Nimitz. Even if you assume that the bulkheads and structural parts of the vessel are more dense, the Enterprise is STILL mostly empty air (through the hulls) or possibly even vaccuum (nacelles).

Why compare to Star Wars when TOS preceded it be nearly a decade?

A lot of the numbers invented for TNG were made as a penis-contest with Star Wars. Sadly, I'm not making this up. The numbers were mandated to be 'more impressive than Lucas'.

Why is it not possible to consider advanced, very dense materials for starship construction? Is it just not conceivable for science fiction?

Physics. You're only going to get SO heavy of materials before you're required to have high-nucleus atoms. Remember, even at 190,000MT, we've got some heavy materials being used already. Ten times that, the ship is literally made of compressed lead.

Why couldn't the mass be something arbitrary like 300,000 metric tons or 90,000 metric tons?

Either number could work well. However, the 190,000MT was derived by a nautical engineer in charge of designing the ship, remember? If my choice is to choose between a real engineer who knows these things, and a fanboi with an axe to grind with Franz Joseph and pulls stuff out of his ass... for some reason I'm going to choose the former.

I understand that the "1,000,000 million tons" do not mesh with your sensibilities, but this is Star Trek. How is "warp drive" not bullshit? Or putting the bridge on the top most level of the ship be not dumb-ass? Star Trek is what it is, IMHO :)

Warp Drive is a neccesary conceit for Star Trek. Changing everything else about physics just for the sheer hell of it is not. Again, it's what turns a science-fiction franchise into the 'special moron' case. How much did everyone start mocking TNG and, particularly, VOY because they were using technobabble while being perfectly clear that they didn't know what any of the words actually meant?

Besides, if you screw up the basic real-world science, I'm pretty sure you didn't give a shit about the fantastic stuff, either.

The bridge is a different issue. But, seriously, burying the bridge in the hull isn't exactly going to make much difference to explosive yields measured in Megatons. "Thank god that two inches of plasterform was there, else we would be fucked!" This is keeping in mind the nonsense of manually targeting an area around 25' across that's moving FTL from tens of thousands of kilometers away.
 
Because it's not an issue of bouyancy, but the relative density of the vessel. Remember, the Enterprise is lessly-packed than the Nimitz. Even if you assume that the bulkheads and structural parts of the vessel are more dense, the Enterprise is STILL mostly empty air (through the hulls) or possibly even vaccuum (nacelles).

How do you know that the Enterprise is less packed than the Nimitz? The Nimitz has this huge hangar cavern where the Enterprise does not.

A lot of the numbers invented for TNG were made as a penis-contest with Star Wars. Sadly, I'm not making this up. The numbers were mandated to be 'more impressive than Lucas'.

That's kinda sad, but TOS still preceded Star Wars. The Star Wars argument doesn't make sense in this case.

Physics. You're only going to get SO heavy of materials before you're required to have high-nucleus atoms. Remember, even at 190,000MT, we've got some heavy materials being used already. Ten times that, the ship is literally made of compressed lead.

How so? The density of Lead is what, 11,000 kg/m3? A "nearly 1 million ton" Enterprise's average density is 4,260 kg/m3. For comparison, the Intrepid (Voyager) is 1118 kg/m3 or just a little denser than water. In either case, they aren't close to lead in density...


Why couldn't the mass be something arbitrary like 300,000 metric tons or 90,000 metric tons?
Either number could work well. However, the 190,000MT was derived by a nautical engineer in charge of designing the ship, remember? If my choice is to choose between a real engineer who knows these things, and a fanboi with an axe to grind with Franz Joseph and pulls stuff out of his ass... for some reason I'm going to choose the former.

A nautical engineer does not equal a spacecraft engineer, let alone a science fiction spacecraft engineer. Nothing was pulled out anyone's ass, except perhaps the production crew and whoever approved it going on air, but one number instead of the other made it to the TV screen.

Perhaps something less offensive to say would be, "according to the episode 'Mudd's Women', Scotty said almost a million gross tons" and in most literature "190,000 metric tons" are used", so viewer decides ;)

It does boil down to a personal choice, doesn't it?

I understand that the "1,000,000 million tons" do not mesh with your sensibilities, but this is Star Trek. How is "warp drive" not bullshit? Or putting the bridge on the top most level of the ship be not dumb-ass? Star Trek is what it is, IMHO :)
Warp Drive is a neccesary conceit for Star Trek. Changing everything else about physics just for the sheer hell of it is not. Again, it's what turns a science-fiction franchise into the 'special moron' case. How much did everyone start mocking TNG and, particularly, VOY because they were using technobabble while being perfectly clear that they didn't know what any of the words actually meant?

Besides, if you screw up the basic real-world science, I'm pretty sure you didn't give a shit about the fantastic stuff, either.

The bridge is a different issue. But, seriously, burying the bridge in the hull isn't exactly going to make much difference to explosive yields measured in Megatons. "Thank god that two inches of plasterform was there, else we would be fucked!" This is keeping in mind the nonsense of manually targeting an area around 25' across that's moving FTL from tens of thousands of kilometers away.

Ah yes Technobabble, the bane of Star Trek :D It didn't happen so much in TOS but really flourished in TNG+. However as real-world science goes, Star Trek has never been something of hard science fiction.

An aside: burying a bridge probably won't help against a phaser or torpedo direct hit, but it can come in handy to near misses, micrometeorites and other strange space phenomena (and there certainly are in Star Trek) ;)
 
How do you know that the Enterprise is less packed than the Nimitz? The Nimitz has this huge hangar cavern where the Enterprise does not.

Aft half, secondary hull, one big ass hangar bay that's usually not even pressurized! And, going aside from that, look at the deck layout of the Nimitz compared to the Enterprise. Our modern sailors would consider the Enterprise a luxury! (Nevermind the rediculousness of the Enterprise-D)

That's kinda sad, but TOS still preceded Star Wars. The Star Wars argument doesn't make sense in this case.

Yes, but the 1,000,000MT actually being cited seriously took off when Okuda took over with TNG and upward, and used that as a baseline number.

How so? The density of Lead is what, 11,000 kg/m3? A "nearly 1 million ton" Enterprise's average density is 4,260 kg/m3. For comparison, the Intrepid (Voyager) is 1118 kg/m3 or just a little denser than water. In either case, they aren't close to lead in density...

I partially exaggerated, but I did point out that nothing we see in any of the series would indicate bulkheads or hull-forms that are THAT dense, and even if they were, there's just not enough of them. And having the ENTIRE ship at the mass-density of water (which is NOT light by any standard) would still preclude that pesky CREW... :P

A nautical engineer does not equal a spacecraft engineer, let alone a science fiction spacecraft engineer. Nothing was pulled out anyone's ass, except perhaps the production crew and whoever approved it going on air, but one number instead of the other made it to the TV screen.

Honestly, a lot gets pulled out of the rectum for Trek's so-called science, particularly from TNG and up. Just because the Rectum is attached to Okuda or Berman doesn't mean that it's not a Rectum.

Perhaps something less offensive to say would be, "according to the episode 'Mudd's Women', Scotty said almost a million gross tons" and in most literature "190,000 metric tons" are used", so viewer decides ;)

It does boil down to a personal choice, doesn't it?

If you want to accept numbers that don't pass 5th grade science, I reserve the right to consider that choice moronic - particularly when it's lobbed around as an authoritive number that it was never ever ever meant to be.

Ah yes Technobabble, the bane of Star Trek :D It didn't happen so much in TOS but really flourished in TNG+. However as real-world science goes, Star Trek has never been something of hard science fiction.

True, but it hurts it far more to screw up the REAL science just to sound cool, which is seriously what happened through TNG and on. That turns science-fiction into the 'idiot box' and you lose what made Trek attractive in the first place. TOS knew to bypass the 'magic box' stuff most of the time and keep the focus on the stories (and keep the tech talk simple, to the point, and dramatic).

An aside: burying a bridge probably won't help against a phaser or torpedo direct hit, but it can come in handy to near misses, micrometeorites and other strange space phenomena (and there certainly are in Star Trek) ;)

Eh, not really. If you're crusing around at .5C relativity (the rated velocity of the ship within subspace), pretty much any particle you hit is going to rip nice holes clean through the entire ship. Won't matter where the bridge is STILL. That's why the ships have shields and a deflector grid, after all.
 
How do you know that the Enterprise is less packed than the Nimitz? The Nimitz has this huge hangar cavern where the Enterprise does not.
Actually, I did general deck plans of the Nimitz so I would have a base line to compare my work on the Enterprise against.

After all, we are talking about a ship that has 12 times the crew compliment of the Enterprise... so they gotta live some place.

It does boil down to a personal choice, doesn't it?
Yes... and if you want people to take you seriously.

If a writer's exaggeration is more important to you than the designer of the ship's own work, that says something about you and your work to the rest of us.

I'd say that Vance and myself are willing to cut a show that was made under the extreme conditions of a weekly series schedule (and the lack of tools we take for granted) a margin for error that you haven't. Considering that no one involved in making up the tech of TOS believe in the number that you want to use, and it only made it into the show under the stress of the schedule, I don't understand why you (or any one else for that matter) would give this reference any weight.

My suggestion... listen to what Vance has said here.
 
Except of course that there exists a "Gross Tons" so you're just trying to inject the word "Register" into it, correct?
No, the term "gross ton" was typically used in naval parlance to refer to "gross register ton." Kinda like when somebody says "twenty five knots," they're probably talking about "nautical miles per hour," not counting the number of knots in their shoelaces.

Afterall, Scotty didn't sound like he was referring to the volume of the ship ;)
Didn't he? It appears pretty obvious he was making a reference to the hugeness of the Enterprise. Why, in a weightless environment such as space, would he need to reference its mass?
 
Packing them in? The Enterprise (NCC-1701) has a pretty decent degree of room for a crew of 430.

That was an in-joke for DS9, where everyone has quarters the size of a deluxe apartment and because they hire so few extras, the halls are usually near deserted.
 
Well, looks like Shaw and Vance are very convinced that 190,000 metric tons is the way to go. Where exactly does it come from?

Franz Joseph's Tech Manual? That lists the "Deadweight Tonnage" of the Enterprise at 190,000 metric tons. That's cargo and capacity only.

TMOST by Whitfield and Roddenberry? That lists the "Gross Weight" of the Enterprise at 190,000 tons. Is this the reference then since it is referring to the ship's weight?

I mean, it's useful to know exactly where you guys are coming from :)
 
Except of course that there exists a "Gross Tons" so you're just trying to inject the word "Register" into it, correct?
No, the term "gross ton" was typically used in naval parlance to refer to "gross register ton." Kinda like when somebody says "twenty five knots," they're probably talking about "nautical miles per hour," not counting the number of knots in their shoelaces.

Well, there is a "Gross Ton"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ton

and "Gross Register Tonnage"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonnage

And since the dialogue is:
"Almost a million gross tons of vessel depending on a hunk of crystal the size of my fist."
It's obvious which you've chosen :rolleyes: ;)

Afterall, Scotty didn't sound like he was referring to the volume of the ship ;)
Didn't he? It appears pretty obvious he was making a reference to the hugeness of the Enterprise. Why, in a weightless environment such as space, would he need to reference its mass?

A large volume of empty ship vs a ship of large mass. Hmm, I'll go with the crystal is being used to move a large mass :)
 
I mean, it's useful to know exactly where you guys are coming from :)

"Star Trek Is..."
"Star Trek: Season One Writer's Guide"
"Star Trek: Season Two Writer's Guide"
"Star Trek: Season Three Writer's Guide"
"Book of General Plans"
"Star Trek: Technical Manual"
"Star Trek: The Role Playing Game (1st Edition)"
"Star Trek: The Trivia Game"
"The Making of Star Trek"
"Star Trek: Phase II Season One Writer's Guide"
"Star Trek: The Motion Picture: Blueprints."
"Star Trek: Enterprise Flight Manual"
"Star Trek: The Motion Picture (Novelization)"

Basically anything that came out during the TOS-TUC period that wasn't Okuda or that episode all agreed on the mass. FASA changed the mass in their second edition game because they messed up their construction rules.
 
I'd say that Vance and myself are willing to cut a show that was made under the extreme conditions of a weekly series schedule (and the lack of tools we take for granted) a margin for error that you haven't. Considering that no one involved in making up the tech of TOS believe in the number that you want to use, and it only made it into the show under the stress of the schedule, I don't understand why you (or any one else for that matter) would give this reference any weight.

@Shaw, why are you asking to cut the show some slack when I have not criticized the figure given in the show? Can you show me where I crossed this line into criticizing the show to get you two in such a defensive position?

As to why it is given any weight, that's because it was mentioned in the show. The only apparent foul that was caused was not also mentioning differing literary sources, IMO.
 
I mean, it's useful to know exactly where you guys are coming from :)

"Star Trek Is..."
"Star Trek: Season One Writer's Guide"
"Star Trek: Season Two Writer's Guide"
"Star Trek: Season Three Writer's Guide"
"Book of General Plans"
"Star Trek: Technical Manual"
"Star Trek: The Role Playing Game (1st Edition)"
"Star Trek: The Trivia Game"
"The Making of Star Trek"
"Star Trek: Phase II Season One Writer's Guide"
"Star Trek: The Motion Picture: Blueprints."
"Star Trek: Enterprise Flight Manual"
"Star Trek: The Motion Picture (Novelization)"

Basically anything that came out during the TOS-TUC period that wasn't Okuda or that episode all agreed on the mass. FASA changed the mass in their second edition game because they messed up their construction rules.

Vance, as I pointed out in a previous post since you list two of the sources: Which measurement is it? FJ uses 190,000 mt as DWT aka cargo. TMOST uses 190,000 mt Gross tons which is the total ship.

I've got some old FASA books lying around, might just go see which measurement they use :D
 
Vance, as I pointed out in a previous post since you list two of the sources: Which measurement is it? FJ uses 190,000 mt as DWT aka cargo. TMOST uses 190,000 mt Gross tons which is the total ship.

I've got some old FASA books lying around, might just go see which measurement they use :D

It's not exactly treated consistantly. Most sources (anything that references the Technical Manual) keeps it at Deadweight, adding some fully-loaded mass depending on your interpretation of cargo. TMoST wasn't written by tech experts, keep in mind, and just lifted the info from the Writer's Guide, which just says 'weight'.
 
Where exactly does it come from?
Walter Matthew Jefferies, the designing of the Enterprise in the Fall of 1964.

It isn't my number, it is his. It isn't my design, it is his. I take no ownership or credit for his work.

A slip in the proofing of a script didn't cause anyone involved in TOS to revisit or revise that figure, so I don't see any reason to entertain it now.

:rolleyes:

But don't get me wrong... I fully endorse and encourage your use of the figure you've already decided on. :techman:




... get you two in such a defensive position?
:guffaw:
 
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And since the dialogue is: It's obvious which you've chosen
It should be. Enterprise is a SHIP, not a truck.

A large volume of empty ship vs a ship of large mass. Hmm, I'll go with the crystal is being used to move a large mass

Mass is irrelevant where warp drive is concerned, you know that. Besides which, it's not just the engines the crystal is powering, it's the energy needs of an entire starship and everything in it. A bigger ship has larger power requirements even when it isn't going anywhere.

And BTW, since we're having this side discussion about alternate references, here's one of my favorites. The TUC blueprints are among the best in the business IMO.
 
For fuck dammit shits's sake already, Scott's line was never ever ever meant to be taken literally. He was supposed to be being hyperbolic out of frustration.(snip)
The ship was always, always, always, always 190,000MT in mass. From the first fucking draft (yes, the "Star Trek Is..." draft) through Roddenberry's own writings (TMP novelization, interviews).
From that volumetrics site I linked to (and someone else did, too), when he discusses the mass of various ships:
b. The 190,000 Tonne Fallacy The Star Trek non-canon has featured different mass estimates for NCC-1701. One of the more popular has been a figure of 190,000 metric tonnes, which originally appeared in the writer's guide (much like a 1.5 million tonne figure for Voyager). The 190,000 tonne figure, however, appeared well before the design of the ship was finalized, and before a final size had been chosen. (One of the early Enterprise concepts had the ship as being 200 feet long, and even shortly before the first pilot the ship was thought to be around 500 feet long.)
Nonetheless the figure persisted, due in part to its inclusion in Whitfield's 1968 "The Making of Star Trek" which made it easy to find and reference in an age before DVDs and VCRs. From there it made its way into Franz Joseph's Technical Manual, and from there into many other materials. Some newer non-canon materials such as the DS9TM have supported the canon mass by showing TMP-era vessels as having high densities, but others such as Starship Spotter continue to use the fandom figure.
At 190,000 tonnes, the TOS Enterprise would be 90% as dense as water . . . that is to say, the ship would float. Voyager, a ship designed to land and which is explicitly identified as being fast and nimble, would be 133% denser. That's 136,000 metric tonnes extra. This, of course, makes little sense . . . one would expect Voyager to be as light as possible, with probably the smallest density in the fleet. Otherwise they could just slap landing legs (or pontoons, for that matter) on an old Miranda class and go on about their business. There's also the oddity of the idea of the Enterprise being only 75% as dense as the Apollo command modules.
Some proponents of Trek fandom deride Scotty's canon comment as "anomalous". Others claim that Scotty was engaged in hyperbole (albeit a minimal example) because, they say, he was exasperated. In general, such 'fandom-boys' claim priority due to 35+ years of non-canon materials which have persisted with the erroneous figure. Further, it's claimed that the "Mudd's Women" statement was an error by the writer, listed in the credits as Stephen Kandel, and it's also claimed that Roddenberry personally reviewed the Franz Joseph repetition of the writer's guide figure and signed off on it.
Such arguments are flawed in multiple ways. First, the lone canon example from TOS is not an anomaly, by definition, since there is nothing canon to compare it to. Second, Scotty's tone and demeanor . . . not to mention the reaction of Kirk and Spock . . . hardly qualifies the statement as one of Scotty freaking out and exaggerating things. See the behavior here:

Third, an error that persists does not become more correct the longer it lasts. It simply becomes an older, more oft-repeated error. Given that the mass is stated in the show as "almost a million gross tons", it is rather silly to then claim 190,000 tonnes. This would be like deciding Voyager's mass was 1.5 million tonnes (as per the writer's guide) despite clear contrary statements in the show. It just doesn't happen for the 90's show, so why would one do it for the 60's show?
Finally, the TOS writers did not operate in a vacuum . . . Roddenberry's rewrites and the oversight by the writing team (with occasional input from Rand engineers) were well-known. Further, as reported in Star Trek Creator (p. 285), the writing credits submitted to the Writer's Guild for "Mudd's Women" read "Story by Gene Roddenberry; teleplay by Stephen Kandel, John D.F. Black, Gene Roddenberry". Roddenberry also attempted to charge Desilu for a "polish" of the story. Thus, there is no question on the matter of authorship and validity . . . Roddenberry was directly involved in the script which described the ship as being almost a million gross tons.
I'd add to his argument that when the mass figure was created for the writer's guide, the ship also had half the crew it would when TOS finally aired, which adds to his point that the design changed.


I'm not invested in one figure or the other, but I recognized almost all of the points he addresses in your post. And I do agree that Scotty does not seem to be using hyperbole there. Rounding up maybe, but not off by orders of magnitude.


On the other hand, the Apollo Modules had almost no free space: every bit was filled with people or equipment that was considerably denser than people. So just about any starship will be less dense than an Apollo Module. (Except that the Apollo Modules were also made as light as possible, often at the expense of durability. Hmm.)
 
Okay,that whole 'volumetrics' argument exists for no other reason than to 'prove how much better/bigger/badder Star Trek is better than Star Wars. There's a bunch of stupid on that site (taking canonista to the extremes here), and I would never cite it as authoritative on anything. In fact, I would only cite that site as proof of unhealthy obsession of minutae and a desperate cry for attention to someone who got beaten up as a kid by wanna-be Jedis in bathrobes carrying wooden sticks and going 'woosh' a lot.

You see, by that site's logic, Harry Mudd is really a polymorphed beast of burden, women don't serve in Star Fleet at all (and at least not before Pike), and Scotty's unusual drink is really named 'Green', and the Enterprise warp nacelles can change shape because different models were used. (Actually, this last one he really does say on the site, or at least used to. Enjoy your reading!)

If you don't believe me about how he approaches these subjects, please refer to his comments on shadows and the time of day in his arguments about how great Trek is. Do you know why he's so vested in the million ton Enterprise? Because it then weighs more than compartive Star Wars ships. That's it. That's his whole reason. His whole reason for being is making shit up about Star Trek and then using that as 'proof' that the Federation can kick the Empire's sorry ass.

*sighs*

And since the asshat uses his site to personally attack me on a few occaisions, as well as people who actually, ya know, worked for Star Trek, I don't feel too bad in telling him to go to hell and dismiss his rubbish accordingly. So, please don't cite him. Just... don't.
 
The little-bit-more-volumunous USS Nimitz masses in at 106,000MT and it's a far more densely-packed ship than the Enterprise is shown to be. So you've already got a ship that masses twice more than then you would expect for her size.
USS Nimitz also has as a design requirement that it be no denser than water. If it's mass in tons exceeds its volume in cubic meters, it will sink.
Even a nuclear submarine must be able to float.
A starship has no such limitation. And is also probably built of denser materials.

That would require all the equipment, etc, that we see to be solid lead at least.
That volumetrics site gives the TOS Enterprise having an overall density of around 4. If the ship's systems were as dense as lead, as you suggest, they would also fill only about 1/3 of it volume to work out to that density. If the systems were copper instead, they'd fill about half the space.
And if the ship were solid aluminum, it would be about half that dense.
Not outrageous, IMO, especially given that the hull is often supposed to be MUCH denser than lead.
If the hull were made of osmium, it would only need to fill 20% of the space to account for ALL of the mass.
 
From that volumetrics site I linked to...
Sorry, but that guy wasn't able to defend his own ideas in this forum, so citing him (or his site) isn't likely to hold much weight with many of us.

Though it seems like he has a very interesting history around the web. :wtf:

Above and beyond that, this topic has been done to death, and all the arguments and counter-arguments have long ago been made... and there is no good reason to restate any of them (as it is a pointless exercise).

You million guys should stick with that figure... it is a good figure for you guys and is quite fitting for how you see the Enterprise. And don't let anyone tell you different. :techman:
 
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