Female Condom Unveiled For World Cup

[Rii]

I don't think people are saying there's no such thing as personal responsibility but when someone gets robbed/raped/killed it is the aggressor who is at fault.

Oh I think they are. Angela stepped far over that line (even if that's not what she intended to convey) but more broadly I don't think it's actually possible to venture the notion of taking sensible precautions to ensure one's safety wrt to the danger of rape (as one does with every other aspect of one's life) without having a flock of seagulls descend from above. Folks are so hung up on trying to out-do one another in being opposed to abhorrent notions (like, umm, actually blaming the victim) that anything bearing even the vaguest resemblance to such is mindlessly savaged, and reality just passes on by. The amusement comes from the fact that it's not even internally consistent. If it was, folks'd consider locking the door to one's house when they go out to be 'acting the victim'. And nobody is that stupid.

 

[Rii]

It's kind of amusing to see how fast people lose their shit at the suggestion that folks should exercise anything resembling judgement when it comes to the subject of rape. Most folks are pretty comfortable with pointing out that walking around a bad part of town at night listening to your iPod and counting a fat wad of cash at night is, well, stupid. But when it comes to rape, such eminently sensible observations become 'blaming the victim' and 'excusing the rapist'.

Except, that is, when they're presented by such folk themselves as examples of measures they're forced to take to reduce the risk of dangerous encounters, such as not walking down dimly lit alleys. Why they do not typically describe such measures as 'blaming themselves' is as yet inexplicable.

The explanation is easy to me:

Whether its a mugging on a street or a rape in a club, the only person who decides a crime is going to be committed is the criminal. The impetus to commit a crime always remains on the criminal. A victim's lack of sensibility should never recuse a criminal from his actions - be it theft, rape, or whatever.

It is not the victim's burden to stop a criminal's behavior. The criminal is 100% responsible for his own actions.

Who the fuck implied otherwise?

Thanks, Exhibit A.

 

[Luther Sloan]

It's kind of amusing to see how fast people lose their shit at the merest hint of the notion that folks should exercise anything resembling judgement or indeed higher brain activity when it comes to the danger of rape. Most folks are pretty comfortable with pointing out that walking around a bad part of town at night listening to your iPod and counting a fat wad of cash is, well, stupid. But when it comes to rape, such eminently sensible observations become 'blaming the victim' and 'excusing the rapist'.

Except, that is, when they're presented by such folk themselves as examples of measures they're forced to take to reduce the risk of dangerous encounters, such as not walking down dimly lit alleys. Why they do not typically describe such measures as 'blaming themselves' is as yet inexplicable.

Rii:

Yes. Exactly. It's like the guy who goes around drinking and walks into busy streets late at night and eventually gets hit by a car. Is it the drivers fault for not paying more attention or the drunks fault for walking into traffic late at night?

Sure. The rapist is at the majority at fault. And it is a horrible horrible thing. And in most cases it is 100% their fault. And yes. The rapist is the one causing the crime. But if women didn't set themselves up to be taken advantage of in the first place in certain cases (they wouldn't be taken advantage of then). It's sad to say. But that's how the world is. You play with fire.... Your gonna get burned. I mean, ask any stunt guy if he has any injuries. Chances are he probably has a few.

Women have to be careful on how they handle themselves in this world because it is a very dangerous place.

I don't think people are saying there's no such thing as personal responsibility but when someone gets robbed/raped/killed it is the aggressor who is at fault.

Sidious:

Thats exactly what they are saying. It's okay to flaunt your cash in a shifty part of town and not expect to be at partial fault for doing so. The thief is entirely at fault for committing the crime against you. Surely flaunting 100 dollar bills around a bunch of questionable characters in a bad night club is not your fault that a thief or criminal took your money. And not the fact that you flaunted your money around carelessly in the first place.

But again. Rape is a touchy subject. As well as it should be. The pain attached to it is immense and life altering. And the Rapist is usually at 100% at fault in most cases. It's just women have got to put on their thinking caps when they go out into this big bad world of ours to protect themselves. Otherwise they are setting themselves up for trouble.

 

[Miss Chicken]

Once again I will state that men who use a woman's behaviour or way she dresses as an excuse to rape her would find an excuse no matter how she dressed or acted. If such a man couldn't use the excuse that she wore no panties, than he would use the excuse that she wore too much makeup, or she looked cheap because she bleached her hair, or because she was out late at night, wasn't chaperoned or didn't wear a burqa etc.

 

[Rii]

Women have to be careful on how they handle themselves in this world because it is a very dangerous place.

That goes for men too.

More specifically I think it's foolish to refuse to acknowledge the power of sexuality; and the dangers of stoking those fires by word or action if one has no interest in feeling the heat.

Similarly, as an ardent supporter of free speech I nonetheless would consider certain kinds of speech in certain environments to be foolish and dangerous. Touting white supremacy and the virtues of slavery at a black pride rally, say.

It's not about excusing the actions of criminals, it's about 'hey you, wake the fuck up'. We don't have the option of living in a world where our rights are inviolate, where what should be is what is. There's only this one.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Miss Chicken:

Rapists should never get a free pass card. They are sharks. Pure and simple. But if you swim in a pool of sharks. Surely you wouldn't pour chum into the water or antagonize them in any way, though.


Side Note:

But again, I feel your pain and you have my deepest deepest heart felt understanding and ear (if you need it).

 

[Bears Discover Fire]

It's kind of amusing to see how fast people lose their shit at the suggestion that folks should exercise anything resembling judgement when it comes to the subject of rape. Most folks are pretty comfortable with pointing out that walking around a bad part of town at night listening to your iPod and counting a fat wad of cash at night is, well, stupid. But when it comes to rape, such eminently sensible observations become 'blaming the victim' and 'excusing the rapist'.

Except, that is, when they're presented by such folk themselves as examples of measures they're forced to take to reduce the risk of dangerous encounters, such as not walking down dimly lit alleys. Why they do not typically describe such measures as 'blaming themselves' is as yet inexplicable.

The explanation is easy to me:

Whether its a mugging on a street or a rape in a club, the only person who decides a crime is going to be committed is the criminal. The impetus to commit a crime always remains on the criminal. A victim's lack of sensibility should never recuse a criminal from his actions - be it theft, rape, or whatever.

It is not the victim's burden to stop a criminal's behavior. The criminal is 100% responsible for his own actions.

Who the fuck implied otherwise?

Thanks, Exhibit A.

Multiple people in this thread have implied otherwise, dude.

You don't know many crime victims, do you? Most of them erroneously DO blame themselves in part for their attacker's actions. A good chunk of the rest of us blame them, too, impeding a victim's chances for reparation and dignified treatment under the law. Your arguments are specious in that regard.

A crime victims' inner world is wracked with If Onlys and I Should Haves, in large part because our society goes out of its way foist accountability for criminal actions on victims.

If only I hadn't had that last drink.

If only I hadn't put down my drink.

If only I had not walked alone to my car.

If only I had walked alone to my car (incidents of acquaintance rape far outstrip their dark alleyway/stranger counterparts).

If only I had run a different direction.

If only I could have punched him, just once.

If only I had gun.

If only I didn't have a gun.

If only I had cut my hair, so he couldn't grab me.

If only I had realized sooner I was in a corner.

If only I hadn't taken that short cut.

If only I had chosen a 'safer' place to live.

If only I hadn't been friendly with the guy at the bus stop.

If only my purse strap was across my back, and not on my shoulder.

If only I had waited for the next elevator.

If only I had not worn that dress.

If only I had not put on makeup.

If a victim believes they themselves somehow forced or compelled a criminal to harm them, he/she will never recover from the violation. This is fundamental to the recovery of a crime victim, and is (ideally) the cornerstone of an enlightened justice system's attitudes toward victims and offenders. Practically, the latter rarely happens because we do hold 'sensible measures' against a victim as a rubric of blame.

FYI: the 'sensible' precautions doled to women to 'protect' themselves against rape and other crimes are pretty fuckin' useless, seeing the majority of rapes do not happen according to the narrative maintained by the advice givers. In fact, a good deal of the advice advice serves to better position rapists and other assailants against potential victims, and provides built in sympathetic platforms for criminals to plead toward their behalf.

 

[Iasius]

Once again I will state that men who use a woman's behaviour or way she dresses as an excuse to rape her would find an excuse no matter how she dressed or acted. If such a man couldn't use the excuse that she wore no panties, than he would use the excuse that she wore too much makeup, or she looked cheap because she bleached her hair, or because she was out late at night, wasn't chaperoned or didn't wear a burqa etc.

That's not really an argument that concerns the excuse a man might use. Rape is obviously inexcusable under any circumstances.

For example, when a thief breaks into my car and steals my stereo, he's 100% guilty (I trust I don't have to point out here that the crimes and consequences aren't at all similar ...).

However since I would consider that somewhat inconveniencing, I take the face plate of that stereo with me when I'm not in the car. That also inconveniences me, but less than having my car broken into.
Now, in an ideal world, I could leave my car with open doors out on the street at night, but this isn't an ideal world.

Similarly, what you wear is a tradeoff as well. But it's not something that really concerns a potential rapist using it as an excuse. It's whether you are and/or feel safer wearing say revealing clothes (or a female condom ...).

It's sort of funny in the context of this thread. I mean why should women have to wear a condom to protect themselves against rape? Isn't that blaming the victim?
No, it's a measure of protection in a society that doesn't completely guarantee your safety. And as long as that society doesn't do a better job, you have to decide what you want to do about it yourself.

Again, that doesn't mean a victim is guilty of anything. Those are different concepts. One is self defense, the other is a crime.


Edit: I agree that "wear different clothing" is a pretty useless suggestion. It just struck me as odd to be dismissed as something as blaming the victim immediately in this thread. I mean, you can just as easily add "If only I had worn a female condom" to that list (don't have a clue how effective it'd be though).

 

[Rii]

A crime victims' inner world is wracked with If Onlys and I Should Haves, in large part because our society goes out of its way foist accountability for criminal actions on victims.

Bullshit. People do that stuff because it's perfectly natural for people to do that stuff, for everything from missing a bus to losing a job to breaking a leg. And it has nothing to do with blame per se.

If I miss the bus because it came 2 minutes early, and I could've left the house 2 minutes earlier than I did but stopped to have a coffee, then I could reasonably say 'If only I hadn't stopped for that coffee I would've made the bus' and it would be perfectly true. That doesn't mean I blame myself for missing the bus, I blame the bus for being early!

If a victim believes they themselves somehow forced or compelled a criminal to harm them, he/she will never recover from the violation. This is fundamental to the recovery of a crime victim

So here is where we get to switch sides: people are not processes and their experiences are not a playground for your theories. Maybe some people like being treated like a flowchart, I don't know, but I prefer to treat them like human beings.

FYI: the 'sensible' precautions doled to women to 'protect' themselves against rape and other crimes are pretty fuckin' useless, seeing the majority of rapes do not happen according to the narrative maintained by the advice givers.

It's a good thing I haven't offered any, then. I'm perfectly comfortable working solely within the trainwreck of an internal framework whereby - on the sole issue of sexual assault - women should apparently be encouraged to believe that they live on an entirely different plane of existence, lest anything else be construed as 'blaming the victim'.

 

[SiorX]

Oh I think they are. Angela stepped far over that line (even if that's not what she intended to convey) but more broadly I don't think it's actually possible to venture the notion of taking sensible precautions to ensure one's safety wrt to the danger of rape (as one does with every other aspect of one's life) without having a flock of seagulls descend from above. Folks are so hung up on trying to out-do one another in being opposed to abhorrent notions (like, umm, actually blaming the victim) that anything bearing even the vaguest resemblance to such is mindlessly savaged, and reality just passes on by. The amusement comes from the fact that it's not even internally consistent. If it was, folks'd consider locking the door to one's house when they go out to be 'acting the victim'. And nobody is that stupid.

Perhaps part of the reason why many of us are quick to irritation at any helpful suggestions for preventing rape is because we've heard it all before and 99% of it is bullshit.

It's not that there's anything logically wrong with the notion that there may be some things one can do to slightly lessen their chances of being the victim of any crime.

However, I sincerely doubt there's anything you could offer as "what women can do to prevent being raped" that we've not all heard a million times. Most such suggestions are either completely irrelevant to the actual scenarios in which most rapes occur, or prohibitively impact a person's way of life to an extent much greater than taking the front panel off your car stereo.

I've talked to a lot of survivors of rape. Thanks to the internet, I've read the stories of many more. For most of us, the "tips" with which women are constantly bombarded were utterly irrelevant. Because survivors are women who thought their boyfriend was a nice guy, until he didn't take no for an answer. They're people with disabilities whose carers took advantage. They're men who went to prison and found a disgusting culture which perpetuates rape as though it were part of their sentence. They're fat women with low self-esteem who were told they ought to be grateful. They're lesbians, being taught a lesson. They are young boys abused by adults. They are transwomen working the streets. They are victims of trafficking. They are women who happened to go down to use the laundry room at just the time that the rapist saw the coast was clear. They are girls who got drunk with friends, and woke up to discover they weren't such good friends afterall. They are battered spouses who don't have the words to articulate why they feel violated. They are probably people whom you know. In the face of all that, "don't accept drinks from strange men" is fairly facile.

And it's not just that the usual tips don't work. It's also the fact that they perpetuate myths about rape. And they drown out conversation so that other more important points don't get heard, because whenever the topic of rape is raised somebody jumps in with advice about wearing shoes that are easy to slip out of, and the whole conversation gets derailed.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Also Mr Sloan has the right to have a opinion here not just all yours.

And we have the right to criticize him. Your point?

he has the right to put religion into the topic and if that helps the person to some point that is good.

And we have the right to criticize him. Your point?

I am not blaming all women Miss Chicken
I am blaming the ones who dress and act like slease bags..
if you dress in a nice way you will not be harmed in some cases

Ugh. It is physically painful for me to read this kind of shit.

Miss Chicken:

I can't imagine what you have been thru.

First reasonable thing you uttered in this thread.

Sure, you can talk about the rape of children and how wrong it is. But using the right words is key.

There are no "right words". The very idea is silly.

Well it is good you did Mr Sloan

Get a room you two.

Multiple people in this thread have implied otherwise, dude.

You don't know many crime victims, do you? Most of them erroneously DO blame themselves in part for their attacker's actions. A good chunk of the rest of us blame them, too, impeding a victim's chances for reparation and dignified treatment under the law. Your arguments are specious in that regard.

A crime victims' inner world is wracked with If Onlys and I Should Haves, in large part because our society goes out of its way foist accountability for criminal actions on victims.

If only I hadn't had that last drink.

If only I hadn't put down my drink.

If only I had not walked alone to my car.

If only I had walked alone to my car (incidents of acquaintance rape far outstrip their dark alleyway/stranger counterparts).

If only I had run a different direction.

If only I could have punched him, just once.

If only I had gun.

If only I didn't have a gun.

If only I had cut my hair, so he couldn't grab me.

If only I had realized sooner I was in a corner.

If only I hadn't taken that short cut.

If only I had chosen a 'safer' place to live.

If only I hadn't been friendly with the guy at the bus stop.

If only my purse strap was across my back, and not on my shoulder.

If only I had waited for the next elevator.

If only I had not worn that dress.

If only I had not put on makeup.

If a victim believes they themselves somehow forced or compelled a criminal to harm them, he/she will never recover from the violation. This is fundamental to the recovery of a crime victim, and is (ideally) the cornerstone of an enlightened justice system's attitudes toward victims and offenders. Practically, the latter rarely happens because we do hold 'sensible measures' against a victim as a rubric of blame.

FYI: the 'sensible' precautions doled to women to 'protect' themselves against rape and other crimes are pretty fuckin' useless, seeing the majority of rapes do not happen according to the narrative maintained by the advice givers. In fact, a good deal of the advice advice serves to better position rapists and other assailants against potential victims, and provides built in sympathetic platforms for criminals to plead toward their behalf.

Because it's worth repeating.

Perhaps part of the reason why many of us are quick to irritation at any helpful suggestions for preventing rape is because we've heard it all before and 99% of it is bullshit.

It's not that there's anything logically wrong with the notion that there may be some things one can do to slightly lessen their chances of being the victim of any crime.

However, I sincerely doubt there's anything you could offer as "what women can do to prevent being raped" that we've not all heard a million times. Most such suggestions are either completely irrelevant to the actual scenarios in which most rapes occur, or prohibitively impact a person's way of life to an extent much greater than taking the front panel off your car stereo.

I've talked to a lot of survivors of rape. Thanks to the internet, I've read the stories of many more. For most of us, the "tips" with which women are constantly bombarded were utterly irrelevant. Because survivors are women who thought their boyfriend was a nice guy, until he didn't take no for an answer. They're people with disabilities whose carers took advantage. They're men who went to prison and found a disgusting culture which perpetuates rape as though it were part of their sentence. They're fat women with low self-esteem who were told they ought to be grateful. They're lesbians, being taught a lesson. They are young boys abused by adults. They are transwomen working the streets. They are victims of trafficking. They are women who happened to go down to use the laundry room at just the time that the rapist saw the coast was clear. They are girls who got drunk with friends, and woke up to discover they weren't such good friends afterall. They are battered spouses who don't have the words to articulate why they feel violated. They are probably people whom you know. In the face of all that, "don't accept drinks from strange men" is fairly facile.

And it's not just that the usual tips don't work. It's also the fact that they perpetuate myths about rape. And they drown out conversation so that other more important points don't get heard, because whenever the topic of rape is raised somebody jumps in with advice about wearing shoes that are easy to slip out of, and the whole conversation gets derailed.

Because it's worth repeating.

 

[thestrangequark]

Some women do provoke unwanted advances and comments/catcalls but it's not the same thing as saying they provoke a rape. The two are not the same. A woman has no right to complain she is oggled and leered at if she's wearing clothing that invites it. That doesn't make it acceptable for anyone to touch, let alone rape them.

I have every right to complain, thank you very much. I should be able to dress however I please without being harassed. But, frankly, it makes no difference. A woman can walk down the street in a giant down coat and rain boots and be catcalled and yelled at. I was wearing my grey parka and rubber boots the time I was asked, "Why don't you walk that sweet pussy over here?!" So, two points -- one, I'm going to wear whatever I please, because no one has the right to dictate my fashion choices! And two, I'm going to complain and complain and complain about the inappropriate comments, gestures, stares (and, just to be clear, a guy can check a lady out without being rude and boorish, I'm talking about the over-the-top leering), until our society changes.

Luther Sloan, you have taken great issue with the words I chose, presumably "penis" and "vagina," stating that they are not the "right" ones and terming them "vulgar." Now, as you have ignored my questions and responses on the larger issues I don't know if you'll bother to address this technicality, but it's worth a shot. There are three options when discussing these subjects: One would be actual vulgarity -- I can think of plenty of crude words for those specific body parts, and I would never use any of them when discussing such a serious (and seriously disturbing) subject as baby rape; the next option would be to euphemise, another bad choice because using language like "pee pee" and "wee wee" in an adult discussion about rape is childish and downright insulting; the final option is to use the proper terminology, "penis" and "vagina," this is the correct option and the one I chose. I hate to break it to you, but babies have penises and vaginas too, and neither of those is a dirty or vulgar word.

I don't have much hope that you'll respond to anything I've said, or apologize for your rudeness in calling me "tasteless." This is a very personal subject for me. My mother was diagnosed with syphilis at the age of 2 -- she had already been raped by that age. The last time she was raped was 6 years ago, by a stranger in a restaurant parking lot, in the middle of the afternoon. I don't know how young I was when I was first sexually assaulted, but I do know that the first time I required medical attention for sex abuse I was also 2. My sister was raped at 13. I would never approach this subject in a tasteless manner, and I'm insulted that you referred to me so.

Angela, I just hope that if you take the time to think about what people are saying in this thread you'll come to realize how wrong you are. The idea that some women ask to be raped by dressing or behaving a certain way is, sadly, a pervasive one in our culture. The effects can be devastating, a personal example being my lifelong struggle with eating disorders. Eating disorders among girls who were sexually abused or assaulted are very common. They are told by people like you to blame themselves for being too pretty, too flirty, too provocative. I blamed my own body for going through puberty and developing curves. In junior high I stopped eating to try to make myself as unattractive to men as possible. I dressed in dumpy clothes (even though one of my passions is fashion), I didn't wear make up until I got to university, but of course it made no difference.

Take the time to rethink your position, considering the damage it does to the psyches of people who've already gone through enough.

 

[Kestra]

I've never been raped, but since other people are sharing experiences ...

The first time I was sexually assaulted I was in middle school. It was Halloween, and I wasn't wearing a provocative outfit. I was in a well-populated neighborhood running around with friends, trick-or-treating. I was a little behind the rest of the group as we left a house and passed a father with his young daughter as they were approaching the house. He let his daughter run ahead and, in the darkness, next to a tree, started to grope me. It was completely unexpected and I simply ran away. I didn't know what to do and just met up with my friends. I was too shocked and ashamed to tell anyone what happened because it seemed so outrageous.

The second time was actually in a bookstore, once again in a good part of town in the suburbs. I was in my own world, perusing sci-fi books of all things, when a man pushed me against a bookcase and once again, proceeded to grope me.

These aren't things I've really talked to anyone about, other than my husband. I wonder sometimes if they have had an effect on me and have to do with why I have a bit of a touch aversion with other people.

Anyway, don't know why I posted this, except maybe to say that sexual assault is more pervasive than we think, and that it's not always some girl who dressed too sexy for a date, or was walking in a bad part of town at the wrong time of day.

 

[Jan]

Anyway, don't know why I posted this, except maybe to say that sexual assault is more pervasive than we think, and that it's not always some girl who dressed too sexy for a date, or was walking in a bad part of town at the wrong time of day.

QFT. It's a crime of opportunity and violence, not of somebody's sexual urge gone out of control.

Jan

 

[Luther Sloan]

And we have the right to criticize him. Your point?

Iguana:

Do you have the right to...

Disagree? Yes.
Criticize? No.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criticize
http://trekbbs.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_flames

Ugh. It is physically painful for me to read this kind of shit.

Okay. Now that's just down right disrespectful of Angela's opinion. Let's be kind here, dude. A pinch of sugar goes a lot farther than you think.

 

[F. King Daniel]

Re: i'm new...

Back on the OP, I think this anti-rape device is only gonna make things worse. It's intended for use in an area known for gang rape - person 1 gets his dick mangled, persons 2, 3 and 4 remove said device and the poor girl's left hung from a tree or something when they're done.

As a one-on-one defence it'll only work if the guy sticks his dick in first, and it's a device ripe for misuse.


The way this thread's going I'm gonna end up some sort of man-hating man. I just want to remind everyone that not everyone's an evil molesting raping fucktard. Although I sometimes wonder about the ratio, there are nice guys out there.

 

[Luther Sloan]

Luther Sloan, you have taken great issue with the words I chose, presumably "penis" and "vagina," stating that they are not the "right" ones and terming them "vulgar." Now, as you have ignored my questions and responses on the larger issues I don't know if you'll bother to address this technicality, but it's worth a shot. There are three options when discussing these subjects: One would be actual vulgarity -- I can think of plenty of crude words for those specific body parts, and I would never use any of them when discussing such a serious (and seriously disturbing) subject as baby rape; the next option would be to euphemise, another bad choice because using language like "pee pee" and "wee wee" in an adult discussion about rape is childish and downright insulting; the final option is to use the proper terminology, "penis" and "vagina," this is the correct option and the one I chose. I hate to break it to you, but babies have penises and vaginas too, and neither of those is a dirty or vulgar word.

Strange Quark:

I don't care if you use the word penis. All men and boys have them. I perfectly agree with that. But talking about the actual insertion involving children on a public forum is personally dis-tasteful to me because they are innocent and can't join the forum to defend themselves. Now you can use that word with adults all you want. But please leave the actual sex talk of children out of it. It can be viewed to some as disgusting and inappropriate. At least for me it is anyways.

I don't have much hope that you'll respond to anything I've said, or apologize for your rudeness in calling me "tasteless." This is a very personal subject for me. My mother was diagnosed with syphilis at the age of 2 -- she had already been raped by that age. The last time she was raped was 6 years ago, by a stranger in a restaurant parking lot, in the middle of the afternoon. I don't know how young I was when I was first sexually assaulted, but I do know that the first time I required medical attention for sex abuse I was also 2. My sister was raped at 13. I would never approach this subject in a tasteless manner, and I'm insulted that you referred to me so.

I think your choice of words were poor involving children. I don't think you are tasteless as a person. I would never say that. And I can't imagine what had happened to you either. It must be extremely painful beyond what most people could ever endure. As I said to Miss Chicken, my heart goes out to you and what has happened to you. Also, if you ever (still) needed to talk to someone. I would be willing to listen, too. And offer support.

Angela, I just hope that if you take the time to think about what people are saying in this thread you'll come to realize how wrong you are. The idea that some women ask to be raped by dressing or behaving a certain way is, sadly, a pervasive one in our culture. The effects can be devastating, a personal example being my lifelong struggle with eating disorders. Eating disorders among girls who were sexually abused or assaulted are very common. They are told by people like you to blame themselves for being too pretty, too flirty, too provocative. I blamed my own body for going through puberty and developing curves. In junior high I stopped eating to try to make myself as unattractive to men as possible. I dressed in dumpy clothes (even though one of my passions is fashion), I didn't wear make up until I got to university, but of course it made no difference.

Obviously this is not the case in every given situation. And you obviously should never make yourself unattractive to men. But as I said before. If your swimming in a pool of sharks, throwing chum into the water and antagonizing the sharks doesn't help (Such as groping on guys in a bar with no panties every weekend or walking home by yourself each night in a questionable neighborhood).

 

[thestrangequark]

Luther Sloan, you have taken great issue with the words I chose, presumably "penis" and "vagina," stating that they are not the "right" ones and terming them "vulgar." Now, as you have ignored my questions and responses on the larger issues I don't know if you'll bother to address this technicality, but it's worth a shot. There are three options when discussing these subjects: One would be actual vulgarity -- I can think of plenty of crude words for those specific body parts, and I would never use any of them when discussing such a serious (and seriously disturbing) subject as baby rape; the next option would be to euphemise, another bad choice because using language like "pee pee" and "wee wee" in an adult discussion about rape is childish and downright insulting; the final option is to use the proper terminology, "penis" and "vagina," this is the correct option and the one I chose. I hate to break it to you, but babies have penises and vaginas too, and neither of those is a dirty or vulgar word.

Strange Quark:

I don't care if you use the word penis. All men and boys have them. I perfectly agree with that. But talking about the actual insertion involving children on a public forum is personally dis-tasteful to me because they are innocent and can't join the forum to defend themselves. Now you can use that word with adults all you want. But please leave the actual sex talk of children out of it. It can be viewed to some as disgusting and inappropriate. At least for me it is anyways.

Of course it's disgusting, but it's also relevant to the topic at hand and an important issue about which people need to be informed and educated. By the incredible amount of misconception in evidenced in this very thread it is clearly a topic that needs discussing, and if it makes people uncomfortable they don't need to participate.

Again, I hope you realize what a privilege it is to take such offense.

I don't have much hope that you'll respond to anything I've said, or apologize for your rudeness in calling me "tasteless." This is a very personal subject for me. My mother was diagnosed with syphilis at the age of 2 -- she had already been raped by that age. The last time she was raped was 6 years ago, by a stranger in a restaurant parking lot, in the middle of the afternoon. I don't know how young I was when I was first sexually assaulted, but I do know that the first time I required medical attention for sex abuse I was also 2. My sister was raped at 13. I would never approach this subject in a tasteless manner, and I'm insulted that you referred to me so.

I think your choice of words were poor involving children. I don't think you are tasteless as a person. I would never say that. And I can't imagine what had happened to you either. It must be extremely painful beyond what most people could ever endure. As I said to Miss Chicken, my heart goes out to you and what has happened to you. Also, if you ever (still) needed to talk to someone. I would be willing to listen, too. And offer support.

It's a nice gesture, but we clearly have some very fundamentally different opinions on the nature of rape and how it ought to be dealt with.

Angela, I just hope that if you take the time to think about what people are saying in this thread you'll come to realize how wrong you are. The idea that some women ask to be raped by dressing or behaving a certain way is, sadly, a pervasive one in our culture. The effects can be devastating, a personal example being my lifelong struggle with eating disorders. Eating disorders among girls who were sexually abused or assaulted are very common. They are told by people like you to blame themselves for being too pretty, too flirty, too provocative. I blamed my own body for going through puberty and developing curves. In junior high I stopped eating to try to make myself as unattractive to men as possible. I dressed in dumpy clothes (even though one of my passions is fashion), I didn't wear make up until I got to university, but of course it made no difference.

Obviously this is not the case in every given situation. And you obviously should never make yourself unattractive to men. But as I said before. If your swimming in a pool of sharks, throwing chum into the water and antagonizing the sharks doesn't help (Such as groping on guys in a bar with no panties every weekend or walking home by yourself each night in a questionable neighborhood).

This is a poor analogy, and the reason it is a poor analogy goes to the very heart of this pervasive attitude of blaming the victim. The reason this is a poor analogy is that it is in the nature of sharks to eat chum. They do it to survive. You are implying that it is in the nature of men to harass and rape -- that they just can't help themselves. Now, sexual urges are strong in most people, that is natural, but whether violent expression of those urges is natural (in the biological sense, i.e. genetic), is up for debate. What is not up for debate is the fact that humans have higher reasoning and should be able to control themselves.

 

[iguana_tonante]

Anyway, don't know why I posted this, except maybe to say that sexual assault is more pervasive than we think, and that it's not always some girl who dressed too sexy for a date, or was walking in a bad part of town at the wrong time of day.

Unfortunately, I don't think that your experiences (or those of anybody else) would change the mind of some people that think rape happens to people that are asking for it.

And we have the right to criticize him. Your point?

Do you have the right to...

Disagree? Yes.
Criticize? No.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/criticize
http://trekbbs.com/faq.php?faq=vb_faq#faq_flames

You seem to have problems with your definitions. From your link:

crit·i·cize

/ˈkrɪt

əˌsaɪz/ Show Spelled [krit-uh-sahyz]

–verb (used with object)
1. to censure or find fault with.
2. to judge or discuss the merits and faults of: to criticize three novels in one review.

–verb (used without object)
3. to find fault; judge unfavorably or harshly.
4. to make judgments as to merits and faults.

—Synonyms
1. condemn, blame. 2. appraise, evaluate.

I don't see any instance of the work "attack". If you don't want yourself or your opinions criticized, you have no places in a discussion board (note: "discuss the merits and faults"). Kitchen, heat, and all that jazz.

However, I would like to point out a couple of sentences from your other link:

Obviously, you cannot insult other people. You may disagree with someone's opinion, but you may not attack the person themselves for posting that opinion.

What about you calling tsq "tasteless" and telling her she shouldn't have posted that here in the forum? So, maybe you should check your backyard before crying fault.

Ugh. It is physically painful for me to read this kind of shit.

Okay. Now that's just down right disrespectful of Angela's opinion.

Her opinion that some women that dress sexy or chat with guys in clubs are asking to be raped and brought it on themselves? You betcha I'm disrespectful or that opinion.

Let's be kind here, dude. A pinch of sugar goes a lot farther than you think.

I'm not kind to people that condone or justify rape.

 

[Luther Sloan]

This is a poor analogy, and the reason it is a poor analogy goes to the very heart of this pervasive attitude of blaming the victim. The reason this is a poor analogy is that it is in the nature of sharks to eat chum. They do it to survive. You are implying that it is in the nature of men to harass and rape -- that they just can't help themselves. Now, sexual urges are strong in most people, that is natural, but whether violent expression of those urges is natural (in the biological sense, i.e. genetic), is up for debate. What is not up for debate is the fact that humans have higher reasoning and should be able to control themselves.

Strange Quark:

Well, we are not going to agree on the other issue (involving kids). So I am going to try and not debate it with you personally. And I would never excuse what rapists do. They should never get a free pass for what they do to women. And the shark comparison is not meant to be an exact comparison. It is show that a person has to use their own best judgement (in certain cases) to minimize getting attacked. I mean, you wouldn't flaunt 100 dollar bills in a bad part of town and not expect to get robbed. Now, this is not to say that women can't dress and appear attractive and can't go to night clubs. All I am saying is that they have to be smart about it (in not putting themselves in situations that could put them under attack). And that is what Angela was getting at, too. Now, this is not always the case for every area or person. But there are smart tactics out there that women can use (without compromising their attractiveness (not slutiness)) to protect themselves in certain cases.