Do we have a rape gene?

[Cheapjack]

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/23/do-we-have-a-rape-gene/

I'd be interested in people's,particularly womens thoughts on this.

I think some women carry it, and it expresses itself in a peculiar form of militant feminism!!!

 

[SiorX]

I'd be interested in people's,particularly womens thoughts on this.

Evo psych is dangerous, faux-scientific bullshit.

Your last sentence is thoroughly disgusting.

 

[Cheapjack]

I would have thought, that if there is a rape gene, and there are people who think that there is, that women will carry it as well. I think it may have peculiar ways of expressing itself, even some feminists may have it, surely? Some lesbians may have it!!

There is some evidence that there is a homosexuality gene.

I did not mean to cause offence.

The article does give some opposing views, and some of those say that environment has something to do with it, but even those say environment and genes both play a role. Just trying to start a debate.

Wasn't there a TNG episode with a mental rape in it, where Picard says 'We all carry the genes that cause this sort of behaviour'???

It hasn't led to any form of eugenics, in the ST universe, if that's what your worrying about. People should just be open about things.

Wasn't there an article that says that there's a murdering gene? Some argued that it could get people off the rap!!

 

[iguana_tonante]

I can see this will end well.

 

[Cheapjack]

It's a bit of a hot potato!!

I'll be looking behind me, on the way home!!

i think ST succeeds, because it says that we will ALL have some expression in the gene pool of the 24thC.

We will be just a little bit more controlled, that's all, and women will be a lot more free and equal. And, able to say 'no', too, a bit more.

It'll be a bit of a 'bonkfest'!!!

 

[Roger Wilco]

33

 

[SiorX]

I would have thought, that if there is a rape gene, and there are people who think that there is, that women will carry it as well. I think it may have peculiar ways of expressing itself, even some feminists may have it, surely? Some lesbians may have it!!

There is some evidence that there is a homosexuality gene.

I did not mean to cause offence.

I'll try to be more articulate.

Listening to the opinions of people with whom you disagree is not like being raped. Seriously. I mean, even if you really disagree with them a lot. It's not like rape. It's really easy to tell them apart, I promise.

Being outspoken, even aggressively so, on an issue is not just another manifestation of rape - as though rape were some vague, gut-level energy which some people vent through politics, and some through macrame, and some through willful assault against another person's sexual autonomy.

Rape isn't a metaphor. It's not an impulse. It's not a biological reservoir to be put to different uses . It is a physical act - a crime with a perpetrator and a victim.

(The fact that you have a particular go at 'militant feminism' doesn't really help. Because, while there are certainly debatable positions held by self-identifying feminists, in my experience the time feminist writers are most likely to be sneered at for being "militant" is when they're speaking out against rape myths.)

The article does give some opposing views, and some of those say that environment has something to do with it, but even those say environment and genes both play a role. Just trying to start a debate.

The Begley article to which Kristof links has some interesting stuff in it. I have no problem believing that genes can have some influence on behaviour. But evo psych just poaches research for the sake of sensationalist books and articles with shoddy scientific methodology.

Way I see it, scientists can spend years isolating a gene which allowed our ancestors to better digest certain meats, and evo psych will turn it into an article about how Real Men are programmed to love Big Macs and hate lettuce.

Wasn't there a TNG episode with a mental rape in it, where Picard says 'We all carry the genes that cause this sort of behaviour'???

Are you thinking of Picard's speech from Violations?

Like you, we have evolved. We've learned to find better ways to handle our conflicts. But no one would deny that a seed of violence remains in every one of us. The potential for it is always there. We must learn to recognize it... because that violence is capable of consuming each of us. Just as it consumed your son.

I suppose the question then arises as to whether one agrees with Picard. But even then, I think there's a vast difference between "a seed of violence" and Thornhill's argument for a specific rape gene. YMMV.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Cheapjack, if you want to discuss this subject, I suggest you take a more serious tone and use facts and reasoning to back up your opinions. So far, all I see is you taking a bunch of random potshots at particular groups and making very dodgy connections to Star Trek episodes. This is a serious subject and deserves serious treatment.

There may or may not be a genetic component to rape. Thus far, no link has been found. But even if there is, you are still responsible for your own actions unless you're found to be mentally incompetent. Contrary to popular belief, we do not live at the whims of our genes. Genes that influence behavior don't act like some kind of mind-control device. Unlike other animals, we're also self-aware and develop ethical systems, which we use to override many instinctive behaviors.

If someone really does have a "rape gene" and tries to use it to get off for committing a rape, there would be no option but to lock them up forever, unless we found a way to treat the expression of the gene.

I have absolutely no idea how a "rape gene" would relate to feminism or lesbianism. Unless you have something to back that up, Cheapjack, I suggest you not bring it up again.

 

[farmkid]

If someone really does have a "rape gene" and tries to use it to get off for committing a rape, there would be no option but to lock them up forever, unless we found a way to treat the expression of the gene.

If there were such a gene, it wouldn't be an issue of just "shutting it off" to treat it. Such a gene would most likely be a gene governing neural development, specifically development of some part of the brain. By the time a person commits a rape, the gene has done its job long ago, during the person's embryonic development time, or perhaps (but less likely) during puberty. By that time, getting rid of the gene won't change its effect. The only treatment at that time would be something like a frontal lobotomy.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

No, there's no gene for this. To claim that there is, is stupid psychobabble intended to shirk responsibility for one's own choices.

 

[Lonemagpie]

No, there's no rape gene.

There's a gene for desiring a shag. Choosing when it's appropriate to do so is a matter of free will, not genetics.

And that's even before getting into the fact that rape isn't about sex or reproduction, it's about power.

 

[CuttingEdge100]

I doubt that the impulse to rape people would come down to one gene. I should note, however, that there are a multitude of genetic traits that affect impulse control, aggression, and sex-drive.

It should be noted that behavior is rarely purely a genetic factor and often involves environmental factors as well which include the manner in which the person was raised, even things they were exposed to during their development.

I don't think it's a good idea to assume everything is genetic when it isn't because it sets the trend for either a culture of unaccountability, or even potentially a type of eugenics culture in which those with the wrong genes are mistreated, persecuted, locked up before they may offend, punished or disposed of, or are forced to undergo gene therapy to make them what society deems acceptable.

It's very dangerous to operate under either of those conditions

 

[Cheapjack]

Cheapjack, if you want to discuss this subject, I suggest you take a more serious tone and use facts and reasoning to back up your opinions. So far, all I see is you taking a bunch of random potshots at particular groups and making very dodgy connections to Star Trek episodes. This is a serious subject and deserves serious treatment.

There may or may not be a genetic component to rape. Thus far, no link has been found. But even if there is, you are still responsible for your own actions unless you're found to be mentally incompetent. Contrary to popular belief, we do not live at the whims of our genes. Genes that influence behavior don't act like some kind of mind-control device. Unlike other animals, we're also self-aware and develop ethical systems, which we use to override many instinctive behaviors.

If someone really does have a "rape gene" and tries to use it to get off for committing a rape, there would be no option but to lock them up forever, unless we found a way to treat the expression of the gene.

I have absolutely no idea how a "rape gene" would relate to feminism or lesbianism. Unless you have something to back that up, Cheapjack, I suggest you not bring it up again.

Robert, I was just trying to put a thought forward, that I have, based on some people that I have met, experiences I have had, and an article I have read. I understand it is a touchy subject.

There may be a rape gene, there may not. If there is, women will carry it, and it may influence their behaviour.

Here's a scenario for you: What if the world was totallly ruled by women? Women occupied all the top jobs and men could not? What if a woman took a fancy to a man beneath her, and wanted to sleep with him, and he refused? Would he still be in a job three days later? Is this a dodgy scenario? Or are women capable of using force to get what they want, too? And Sciorx, that's not just not being forceful, or putting your point of view forward, it's coercion, it's rape.Wasn't there a film with Demi Moore in about the subject, saying it can even happen today, and it is wrong from any angle? We should be open about this.

And, how will this be dealt with, in the ST world, that we want to see? I think will people will be free to say 'no' to any coercion, without any sanctions, in the ST world. I also think women will be able to initiate courtship more, even being able to ask men out, in the ST world, which I don't think they can do today, in all cultures, without some fear of mistreatment. And men should be free to refuse them, too.

I also suspect, though, and this is just a suspicion, that this is manifested in some women, in some cultures, by a suspicion of unaggressive, passive, men too, and by a desire by some of them to dominate and denigrate them, too. That may be to make up for millenia of oppression, but it may be because of the gene, too, expressing iteslf .It's just a suspicion, mind you, and I have no proof of this, I admit. it may be a cultural thing. I think it should be looked into.

There you go. I don't want to offend anyone, but I think my thoughts should be shared. I like this board. I hope I've put some good arguments forward, robert. I think Gene Roddenberry did a series about this subject, once.

 

[Cheapjack]

I doubt that the impulse to rape people would come down to one gene. I should note, however, that there are a multitude of genetic traits that affect impulse control, aggression, and sex-drive.

It should be noted that behavior is rarely purely a genetic factor and often involves environmental factors as well which include the manner in which the person was raised, even things they were exposed to during their development.

I don't think it's a good idea to assume everything is genetic when it isn't because it sets the trend for either a culture of unaccountability, or even potentially a type of eugenics culture in which those with the wrong genes are mistreated, persecuted, locked up before they may offend, punished or disposed of, or are forced to undergo gene therapy to make them what society deems acceptable.

It's very dangerous to operate under either of those conditions

Cutting edge, we've had the power, since 1945, to wipe out all human beings, and all life on this planet, and we haven't, let alone get rid of some genes, or modify behaviour. And we still continue the science of nuclear physics, it's not a banned subject. We might not do anything with the knowledege, but we may have it. I see that environment plays a part, but it's still moot whether it's 50/50 or 60/40. we should extend our knowledge here.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

Cheapjack, if you want to discuss this subject, I suggest you take a more serious tone and use facts and reasoning to back up your opinions. So far, all I see is you taking a bunch of random potshots at particular groups and making very dodgy connections to Star Trek episodes. This is a serious subject and deserves serious treatment.

There may or may not be a genetic component to rape. Thus far, no link has been found. But even if there is, you are still responsible for your own actions unless you're found to be mentally incompetent. Contrary to popular belief, we do not live at the whims of our genes. Genes that influence behavior don't act like some kind of mind-control device. Unlike other animals, we're also self-aware and develop ethical systems, which we use to override many instinctive behaviors.

If someone really does have a "rape gene" and tries to use it to get off for committing a rape, there would be no option but to lock them up forever, unless we found a way to treat the expression of the gene.

I have absolutely no idea how a "rape gene" would relate to feminism or lesbianism. Unless you have something to back that up, Cheapjack, I suggest you not bring it up again.

Robert, I was just trying to put a thought forward, that I have, based on some people that I have met, experiences I have had, and an article I have read. I understand it is a touchy subject.

There may be a rape gene, there may not. If there is, women will carry it, and it may influence their behaviour.

Here's a scenario for you: What if the world was totallly ruled by women? Women occupied all the top jobs and men could not? What if a woman took a fancy to a man beneath her, and wanted to sleep with him, and he refused? Would he still be in a job three days later? Is this a dodgy scenario? Or are women capable of using force to get what they want, too? And Sciorx, that's not just not being forceful, or putting your point of view forward, it's coercion, it's rape.Wasn't there a film with Demi Moore in about the subject, saying it can even happen today, and it is wrong from any angle? We should be open about this.

And, how will this be dealt with, in the ST world, that we want to see? I think will people will be free to say 'no' to any coercion, without any sanctions, in the ST world. I also think women will be able to initiate courtship more, even being able to ask men out, in the ST world, which I don't think they can do today, in all cultures, without some fear of mistreatment. And men should be free to refuse them, too.

I also suspect, though, and this is just a suspicion, that this is manifested in some women, in some cultures, by a suspicion of unaggressive, passive, men too, and by a desire by some of them to dominate and denigrate them, too. That may be to make up for millenia of oppression, but it may be because of the gene, too, expressing iteslf .It's just a suspicion, mind you, and I have no proof of this, I admit. it may be a cultural thing. I think it should be looked into.

There you go. I don't want to offend anyone, but I think my thoughts should be shared. I like this board. I hope I've put some good arguments forward, robert. I think Gene Roddenberry did a series about this subject, once.

Gender equality is an ongoing issue, but I don't see what any of that has to do with the alleged existence of a rape gene.

It would be just as wrong for a woman to abuse her authority for the purposes of her own sex life as it would be for a man. I don't see any kind of debate there--it's wrong no matter who does it.

I have never heard it suggested that women who enjoy a dominant role and men who prefer to be submissive are subject to some kind of rape gene, either. Having a dominant personality has nothing to do with the desire to rape. In fact, it tends to be the exact opposite, as rapists are often men who are inept and weak in their romantic relationships, so they turn to rape for fulfillment.

If you are suggesting that submissive men actually "want" to be raped, I think you're way off-base there. It is not possible to want to be raped, since by definition rape is non-consensual.

 

[Cheapjack]

Well, my experience is, that, in some cultures, the man has to ask the woman and the woman almost certainly cannot ask the man, without fear of mistreatment. And, there has to be some element of coercion, some show of force, for it to be right and culturally acceptable.It's all very unspoken and put under an air of aggressive showmanship, but it's there. And, I've seen women get punched for being outgoing and free minded and the centre of attention. And I've had things done to me I didn't like, under threat, too.

Your post is a dash of cold water robert, but I do think it happens.

I don't think submissive men want to be raped, though. i think they have no choice in some cases. Can't you verbally rape and mentally rape and abuse people too, and doesn't that go on, from both sexes, in a relationship? it's rare that women drag people down back alleys, but shouldn't you be careful, in a womens prison? maybe it's all cultural, but maybe the GATC chemicals are fueling something that should be controlled.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

There is no question that there are still cultures that are sharply divided among gender lines, but at least in the West we have made an honest effort to move past it. No one has denied that we have a history of patriarchy.

I'll just ask you straight out: do you have issues with women because of things they've done to you?

 

[Cheapjack]

No, I have more of an issue with the men. And the things that were done were reciprocated onto me, from the men, I would guess, though I don't know for sure, I didn't ask. One night was enough for me.

I just thought that, going on the fact that women carry genes that men carry, and if there is a rape gene. it may express itself in women. Maybe it isn't, maybe it just gets past down the male line, from father to son, I don't know. As I said, from my limited knowledge of the world, it happens in womens prisons. Maybe it's cultural.

 

[Meredith]

I doubt there is a single "Rape Gene" I would suppose there could be a combination of genes that make people more agressive sexually or more likely to assert their power over others sort of thing. Not all rape is done for sex, some is done to show dominance/power, we learn a lot from watching chimps as they behave simular to how we do.

 

[Cheapjack]

I doubt there is a single "Rape Gene" I would suppose there could be a combination of genes that make people more agressive sexually or more likely to assert their power over others sort of thing. Not all rape is done for sex, some is done to show dominance/power, we learn a lot from watching chimps as they behave simular to how we do.

I think I could do with living with them, for a day or two!!

But, these Star Trek humans, they represent the best of us, the people we'd like to be, the people we want the people from the stars to see!!

Or, maybe I'll just go and watch another episode. Maybe not amok time!