Did the Cardassians get a bad wrap?

[Tarek71]

Alot of species were somewhat poorly handled. But I think the Cardassians are more like the old militarist Prussian junkers. A military caste that are still philistines on some level, but consider themselves to be altogether more civilized and urbane than the Klingons. That they can hold their own at a wine and cheese party, discussing art, literature and philosophy, without seeming awkward and clumsy.

The scientific racism and social darwinism that partly poisoned the intellectual classes of 19th Europe and America demonstrated that its possible to be well read, "civilized", and sophisticated and yet hold views that are breathtakingly racist or speciesist. You could be urbane and be an imperialist or believe that "lower breeds" should be sterilized for their own good. These are easily combinable traits and views.

So I tended to think of Cardassians as alot like Earth, had Earth taken a differnt turn or path in their history.

 

[OldManDax]

Disclaimer: Navaros hates Bajorans. He is also pretty transparently contrarian. Therefore anyone who is anti-Bajoran, including Dukat, is by definition, a "great guy".

 

[DevilEyes]

Regardless, Cardassia being a race/planet/species and the "Nazis" being a political party/ideology is irrelevant to the connections, considering that the Universe of Star Trek is solely based on our history and our own culture (Since we know of no other cultures to derive from but our own.)

And? The Cardassians are a race, not an ideology. You would make a better case if you said you were just using "Cardassians" as a shorthand for the policy of the Cardassian Union.

As it goes for "Needing" Bajor's resources, I don't buy it.

If they really needed their resources, why did they simply give up the system in their talks with the Federation? After losing Bajor, they sure seemed to do just dandy without those resources.

Because they had drained a lot of these resources, or at least that's what the Central Command believed, and, to use a Ferengi vocabulary, the expenditure (in soldiers and military personnel, weapons, machinery and everything else needed to maintain the occupation) was outweighing the profit at that point, considering the lack of peace and constant attacks by the Bajoran resistance which meant that Cardassians didn't feel safe on Bajor. It was not profitable enough anymore.

What is your problem with acknowledging that the Cardassians needed Bajoran resources? It doesn't mean that they would have been unable to survive without them. But their main motive for coming to Bajor was because Bajor was a land rich in natural resources - which was, incidentally, the motive for a lot of colonization and conquest in Earth's history. It's not like they hated Bajorans so much that they wanted to come and torture them, it's that they wanted something they had and they thought they had a right to take it from those 'backward', 'inferior' people. Just like European conquistadors and colonizers were initially looking for gold and spices, and they had no problem with making the natives into slaves in the process.

^ Which is exactly what I have been trying to say and exactly what "Nazi Germany" did to the other cultures/societies they took over.

The Cardassians thought of the Bajorans as primitive, backwards and inferior and if they just accepted their roles as the inferior race and did what they wanted them to, their oppression would have been much more easier.

Look at the episode "Waltz" in DS9 and exactly how Dukat tried to justify his actions and you will see how closely they tried to relate it to many of the German leaders/officers held for War Crimes tried to justify their actions in WWII. Even Dukat eventually said he should have killed them all when he had the chance.... sound familiar?

Look at the episode "Waltz" and exactly how Dukat tried to justify his actions, and then look up "White Man's Burden"... Sound familiar?

Regardless of how the Cardassians came to occupy and kill off so many of their people, the end result relates very closely to Nazi Germany.

If they don't, then by all means, please correct me and tell me whom the Cardassians relate to more in our past.

I already have. There's more than just one historical 'villain' to point to.

If you say they were never supposed to relate to anything of our past, then I strongly suggest you read up on your history some more.

My argument stands.

Nope, what I am saying that they relate to Earth's history a lot: they do relate to Nazi Germany, but they also relate to many other things in Earth's history. If you don't think so, then I strongly suggest you read up on your history some more.

 

[SpyOne]

O'Brien: I don't hate you, Cardassian. I hate what I became, because of you.

The Klingons get a better rep (and rap) because they have not made war on anybody we know in recent memory. Certainly Kirk held no fondness for them.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Uh, how about betraying the Federation during Way of the Warrior??? And they surely were still going a'Viking on borders that didn't touch the Federation...

 

[Thestral]

The Cardassians didn't get a bad wrap. I think it's fair to say their culture is one of the most well-developed (except maybe the Bajorans') in Star Trek, and that included a hint of some of the "other" facets of Cardassia.

Even more if you read the novels written since the show's end - "A Stitch in Time," "The Never-Ending Sacrifice" and the "Terok Nor" trilogy.

 

[Jono]

Uh, how about betraying the Federation during Way of the Warrior??? And they surely were still going a'Viking on borders that didn't touch the Federation...

The Federation betrayed the Klingons not the other way around in Way of the Warrior. Or at least Sisko and co did.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Uh, how about betraying the Federation during Way of the Warrior??? And they surely were still going a'Viking on borders that didn't touch the Federation...

The Federation betrayed the Klingons not the other way around in Way of the Warrior. Or at least Sisko and co did.

The Klingons opened up THAT can of worms first by attacking the Cardassians without cause--and remember, the Cardassians had just overthrown Central Command and were on friendlier terms with the Federation than under the Central Command regime. So much for Klingon "honor"--apparently little things like "facts" don't get in the way for them any more than they did for Central Command or the Obsidian Order!

 

[Red Ranger]

Disclaimer: Navaros hates Bajorans. He is also pretty transparently contrarian. Therefore anyone who is anti-Bajoran, including Dukat, is by definition, a "great guy".

Ah, a Cardassian apologist! How nice!

 

[Thestral]

The Federation betrayed the Klingons not the other way around in Way of the Warrior. Or at least Sisko and co did.

The Klingons opened up THAT can of worms first by attacking the Cardassians without cause--and remember, the Cardassians had just overthrown Central Command and were on friendlier terms with the Federation than under the Central Command regime. So much for Klingon "honor"--apparently little things like "facts" don't get in the way for them any more than they did for Central Command or the Obsidian Order!

In fairness, the Klingons were convinced the reason Central Command was overthrown was because Changelings had infiltrated the Detapa Council. Conveniently enough, Gowron's lead General had been replaced by a Changeling himself, likely feeding false information - Changeling Martok did a nice job there.

 

[Good]

It wasn't just Jewish people sent to concentration camps, gas chambers, and being executed at whim.... yet it would seem our history would like to make it sound like it was.

I have no issue with Jewish people, but I do have an issue when our own societies like to act like they were the only ones treated this way.

Sorry, I gotta call you on this one. I hear this old saw trotted out all the time and it's just not true.

Pretty much any article, any textbook, any museum display, any documentary on the Holocaust says pretty clearly up front that the Nazis killed gays, Roma, and people with disabilities as well as Jews. The Jewish deaths get more mention because they made up the vast majority of those murdered.

I just don't see this as us acting "like they were the only ones treated this way."

 

[LapsedTrekkie]

Wow, when did this become a discussion on WWII Germany?

No, the Cardassians don't get a bad wrap. As a society, they are generally raised to continue the terrible policies of their ancestors, and to serve the state. We saw plenty of examples of good people who broke OUT of that pattern ... but as a rule they weren't a race of people with many redeeming qualities.

 

[Jono]

The Federation betrayed the Klingons not the other way around in Way of the Warrior. Or at least Sisko and co did.

The Klingons opened up THAT can of worms first by attacking the Cardassians without cause--and remember, the Cardassians had just overthrown Central Command and were on friendlier terms with the Federation than under the Central Command regime. So much for Klingon "honor"--apparently little things like "facts" don't get in the way for them any more than they did for Central Command or the Obsidian Order!

No one had any idea that the Cardassian Central Command had fallen until the Klingons came around and told the crew of DS9. The Cardassians had locked down their borders and weren't dealing with anyone, so I don't know how the Cardassian Union's relations with the Federation could have changed given they were in self imposed isolation.

After the invasion they were forced to rely on Federation assistance, so I guess you could take that as "friendlier terms" or see it simply as the fact that this new regime had no other option if they wanted to remain as the Cardassian Union and not Klingon occupied Cardassia.

In fairness, the Klingons were convinced the reason Central Command was overthrown was because Changelings had infiltrated the Detapa Council. Conveniently enough, Gowron's lead General had been replaced by a Changeling himself, likely feeding false information - Changeling Martok did a nice job there.

Actually we don't know for sure any more if the Klingon claims were false. The show did a good job at showing blood tests and screenings to be just about totally ineffective against Changelings. We only saw one positive result and that was that Sisko was a Changeling when he clearly wasn't.

That puts Sisko's claims that there were no Changelings in the Council he picked up in doubt. Also just because there are no Changelings in the council they rescued doesn't cancel out the claim that the Changelings were involved in bringing down Central Command. It is possible that Changeling had already moved on before the council fled Cardassia Prime as their mission was complete, they caused a bit of chaos in the Cardassian Union and now the ball was in the court of the Changelings in the Klingon Empire.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Sisko and company would likely have been too low on the totem pole, relatively speaking, to be aware of the fall of Central Command--that makes sense. As to what the upper echelons of Starfleet, or its intelligence services knew, that is a different matter and I see no reason why the higher-ups wouldn't have been aware of it. Obviously it would make sense to keep that knowledge under wraps if officially the Cardassians had an isolationist policy at the time, and work through backdoor channels to ensure favorable terms when the borders did reopen. That's what I would've done in that situation and what I strongly suspect WAS going on--but as I said, that would've been well above Sisko's pay grade and thus that of the audience.

 

[Michael]

Isn't it "rep" (short for "reputation"), instead of "rap" or "wrap"? Or is this an American thing?

 

[flemm]

Isn't it "rep" (short for "reputation"), instead of "rap" or "wrap"? Or is this an American thing?

It's "rap," probably an extension of slang expressions such as "a murder rap," so "rap" in the sense of a judgement or criminal charge. You don't really see the word used this way too much outside of a few slang expressions, though, such as "to get a bad rap," in other words to be judged or criticized unfairly.

As for whether it's American-only slang, I'm not sure. Certainly it's an expression used regularly in the States, but I'm not sure if it's used elsewhere.

 

[Michael]

Isn't it "rep" (short for "reputation"), instead of "rap" or "wrap"? Or is this an American thing?

It's "rap," probably an extension of slang expressions such as "a murder rap," so "rap" in the sense of a judgement or criminal charge. You don't really see the word used this way too much outside of a few slang expressions, though, such as "to get a bad rap."

Ah, okay. I was confused, because the contentual connection to the word "reputation" (i.e. the opinion that people have about what somebody is like, based on what has happened in the past) seemed much more logical to me. But you are right; I see that the OALD lists "rap", too.

But thanks anyway.

 

[flemm]

Ah, okay. I was confused, because the contentual connection to the word "reputation" (i.e. the opinion that people have about what somebody is like, based on what has happened in the past) seemed much more logical to me. But you are right; I see that the OALD lists "rap", too.

Yeah, it's just one of those stock expressions that gets used instinctively without anyone thinking about what is actually being said (I double-checked to be sure before posting because I hadn't given it any thought in a while either).

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Isn't it "rep" (short for "reputation"), instead of "rap" or "wrap"? Or is this an American thing?

It's "rap," probably an extension of slang expressions such as "a murder rap," so "rap" in the sense of a judgement or criminal charge. You don't really see the word used this way too much outside of a few slang expressions, though, such as "to get a bad rap," in other words to be judged or criticized unfairly.

As for whether it's American-only slang, I'm not sure. Certainly it's an expression used regularly in the States, but I'm not sure if it's used elsewhere.

I think "rap" is short for "rap sheet," which is your criminal record.

 

[OldManDax]

Disclaimer: Navaros hates Bajorans. He is also pretty transparently contrarian. Therefore anyone who is anti-Bajoran, including Dukat, is by definition, a "great guy".

Ah, a Cardassian apologist! How nice!

Well, I don't think he's the only Cardassian apologist - or at least enthusiast - here. But he does seem to take it to extremes, I think. Ah, well.