Damn you, Berman & Braga!

[buckeyenation]

Well, the guy we have to thank for the later seasons of Voyager not sucking is Brannon Braga, definitely. I mean, wasn't he the guy responsible for bringing Jeri Ryan on the show? They dated, IIRC. Seven of Nine saved Voyager, if you don't mind me sayin'.

As for Enterprise, season one is pretty good and enjoyable, though boring at times. Season two (airing in my home country right now) is mostly a suckfest (having ten consecutive shit episodes, from ANuS to Stigma), but it definitely has its moments. First Flight definitely stands out here.

I'm glad some of us are choosing to look at the good things Berman and Braga did, rather than focus on the negative. And Season two isn't as bad as most people seem willing to say. This series produced some fine Trek moments, but all we hear about is the theme song and how bad the finale was (and I'm just as guilty as anyone for hammering TATV).

 

[Shatnertage]

Fans were unhappy with the finale? I'd have never gotten that impression from this board.

Maybe someone can start a thread asking people what they didn't like about TATV to clear this up.

of course.

 

[xortex]

I have to say watching it again is painful. T'Pol is so negative and looks like Frankenstein and everything is just so strained and unnatural. Everybody looks condescendingly at each other. Archer looks like he's in pain all the time. The costumes are so awkward and stilted. There's no color whatsoever giving it a dark watered down bland look. That's not Star Trek.

 

[number6]

I have to say watching it again is painful.

Then don't. No one is forcing you to.

 

[Middleman]

That's not Star Trek.

Well the fact of the matter is that there is no Star Trek any more, unless you're counting JJ Abram's nostalgic lookbacks we are going to be "treated" to every few years. If more people embraced Enterprise, we'd be watching the sixth series now.

 

[Mach5]

Everybody looks condescendingly at each other.

What...

Archer looks like he's in pain all the time.

Actually, that's true...

The costumes are so awkward and stilted.

The uniforms were pretty cool, IMO. A transition from the pilot jumpsuits, to the classic gold, red and blues...

There's no color whatsoever giving it a dark watered down bland look.

Acutally, that dark look from the first three seasons was terrific, IMO.

That's not Star Trek.

Yes it is. Rick Berman said so.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I really liked this series. It was too little, too late to save oldTrek though. The same premise, same kinds of characters and setting done now, with people like Orci working in the current Paramount environment, would likely be more successful.

T'Pol is my second-favorite Vulcan character, following Spock.

 

[Marten]

I just watched the finale for the first time. Junk seems to be the first word that comes to mind (Or at least that's what it translates to). I can understand some of the bashing now, but up until that finale I really liked the show. Kinda like Voyager, whose finale also was bad beyond beliefe.

 

[Shatnertage]

I just watched the finale for the first time. Junk seems to be the first word that comes to mind (Or at least that's what it translates to). I can understand some of the bashing now, but up until that finale I really liked the show. Kinda like Voyager, whose finale also was bad beyond beliefe.

1. Jonathan Frakes was in TATV.

2. Jonathan Frakes briefly hosted a series called "Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction"

Coincidence? Maybe not.

And I'll add my 2 cents about the anti-Enterprise post above. Dialog can be awkward and stilted. Uniforms can be ill-fitting and unstylish.

I thought the uniforms and the ship interiors were two things they got right. I was let down by some of the stories and characterizations, but Enterprise always had a good look.

 

[xortex]

Tatv could have been a great idea and gave that what is real and what isn't feel if they had Riker and Troi as characters in it from the beginning and a story revolving around them as bad/good guys. There's gonna be a series six and it's gonna be similar. Braga should definately be involved but be the last one to make decisions. I just think T'Pol could have more likable is all and would have liked to see Archer in a pull over shirt instead of a jumpsuit. A jumpsuit could have been fine for Trip but not for Archer. They don't all have to wear the same thing. I do agree with everthing else said here though.

 

[Dukhat]

Tatv could have been a great idea and gave that what is real and what isn't feel if they had Riker and Troi as characters in it from the beginning and a story revolving around them as bad/good guys.

The concept of someone from the future using a holodeck recreation of the ENTERPRISE era for research purposes is in and of itself a pretty good idea. However, it should a) not have been used as the finale of the show, b) should not have been framed around "The Pegasus," and c) should not have involved Riker and Troi. And to say that R & T should have been characters from the beginning cheapens ENTERPRISE even more than the finale did.

...and would have liked to see Archer in a pull over shirt instead of a jumpsuit. A jumpsuit could have been fine for Trip but not for Archer. They don't all have to wear the same thing. I do agree with everthing else said here though.

Excuse me, but I haven't the faintest idea about what you're going on about here. How does what the characters wear have anything to do with anything?

There's gonna be a series six and it's gonna be similar. Braga should definately be involved but be the last one to make decisions.

No and no. Series six will be nothing like what's gone before, because it a) won't be made for another ten years or so, and b) will not take place in the prime universe. And Braga will never have anything to do with Star Trek ever again.

 

[xortex]

O.K., Duhkat, what will series six be like and who would your ideal writers be?

 

[NXOner]

That's not Star Trek.

Well the fact of the matter is that there is no Star Trek any more, unless you're counting JJ Abram's nostalgic lookbacks we are going to be "treated" to every few years. If more people embraced Enterprise, we'd be watching the sixth series now.

Exactly! I am so fed up with people coming out of the woodwork now, and saying that they've looked at Enterprise again and like it now - they needed to be loyal and stick with it at the time, good or bad. I even went to a convention where the organisers announced on stage "Hands up who doesn't like Enterprise!", shooting their own hands up, and the sheep followed sticking theirs up too. The Magazines all criticized it. One went out of its way to diss the series every issue. Enterprise was the first series to be born in the internet age, and suffered for it. There was a site called 'Kill Enterprise'. Instant gratification required, instant criticism given. No wonder the producers ran scared. And all the time, I was gritting my teeth and thinking, you know, if Enterprise dies, Star Trek is gone. And now it is - all bar the whimpering.

 

[Dukhat]

O.K., Duhkat, what will series six be like and who would your ideal writers be?

Something that hasn't been done before, and writers (and producers) who have never written for past Star Trek television before. A fresh slate. If you need a perfect example of this, just compare old Doctor Who with new Doctor Who.

 

[Saquist]

you know i really don't like Enterprise, idk it just seemed like a dissapointment to me. As far as they're writting, there would be nothing past TNG without them so i give them kudos for keeping Star Trek alive for all those years but they could have done better on thier writting.

A major part of the reason for the fall of Trek is actually in the hands of Sci Fi Channel. They stepped up the game. TNG existted in a vaccum. There was little else to compete with. DS9 had to compete with Babylon Fi and the rest of the Action Pack Series that came out on the WB network.

But don't get me wrong...
B&B did not have the vision to see that the next two incarnations of Trek would suffer mediocrity in the face of Great Competition like Battlestar Galactica and SG-1 and SG-A. Vision would have allowed them to see that the stakes were higher now. That the mettle of their competition was putting out better ratings than they and spending more money for it.

Remember that Voyager was a 90's show and reflected that.
But Enterprise started in the 2001. Compare it with other shows like 24 that also started in 2001. CSI, Boston Public, Smalleville, Allias, The CSI's, . Lost started in 2004,

This would set up a stage of great TV Shows for the 2000's

BONES, Boston Legal, Grey's Anatomy, Heros, and others that scored far more ratings than Enteprise. And yes it's true that Sci Fi is a niche market but not anymore. people can be converted to SCI FI and have been. It's an expanding market they make bunches of money at the box officer.

The only thing you have to Thank B&B for is their staunch and stubborn approach to Trek that it would never again do well on the small screen again. You don't have to add sex and violence to make a show great. Those are easy tricks. Reinventing "new" is the hard part. Stories that people are intrested in and stories that dare to take you further apparently was beyond their perview. The Failures of the TNG Movies is PROOF that they have the most limited vision of writing and story telling, not to mention the limitation of understanding exactly what a fan wants...and what people want that I have ever seen.

 

[Broccoli]

The only thing you have to Thank B&B for is their staunch and stubborn approach to Trek that it would never again do well on the small screen again. You don't have to add sex and violence to make a show great. Those are easy tricks. Reinventing "new" is the hard part. Stories that people are intrested in and stories that dare to take you further apparently was beyond their perview. The Failures of the TNG Movies is PROOF that they have the most limited vision of writing and story telling, not to mention the limitation of understanding exactly what a fan wants...and what people want that I have ever seen.

I think that is a little unfair towards B&B. While, sure there was a part of them trying to keep to what was considered the "Roddenberry ideal", there was also pressure from the network to keep things safe and familiar.

Keep in mind, the initial idea for Enterprise was very different from what we got and what came before. The whole first season was apparently going to be set on Earth as they build the ship. But the network nixed it right out.

As for "what a fan wants"...you're kidding right? What do think fans want? And how universal do you actually think that is?

Also, if you can going to say the films were failures, don't forget to throw Ron Moore and Michael Piller under the bus as well.

 

[Anwar]

Yeah, Braga had nothing to do with INS and NEM.

As for not taking risks, that was UPN's doing and NOT theirs. Hell, taking risks is what Braga wanted to do the second he began at VOY. Manny Coto only got away with what he did because by the time he came onboard UPN no longer cared. He got lucky, pure and simple.

Hell, if Berman had been allowed to do VOY the way he wanted (make the show AFTER DS9, in the 2000s maybe) it'd likely have turned out way better.

 

[Broccoli]

Anwar speaks truth.

 

[Saquist]

I think that is a little unfair towards B&B. While, sure there was a part of them trying to keep to what was considered the "Roddenberry ideal", there was also pressure from the network to keep things safe and familiar.

Rick Berman was behind Generations and Braga and Moore wrote the script. There was seemingly no conflict with the studio. That script was pure mediocrity but standard 90's Trek.

Eventually, it became quite obvious that the studio and I were leaning toward Ron's and Brannon's script.~Berman

From William Shatner.
This story came from Rick Berman. It was written by his own handpicked writers,

For First Contact:
Bermans' fascination with Time Travel meets mediocrity and in-continuity. Before the Star Trek Movie of 2009 First Contact was the best grossing film. But honestly there is literally no comparison between their top grosses. The only thing they have in common is..more mediocrity and very little imagination.


With a draft of Resurrection sent to studio executives, generally positive notes were returned.~Memory ALpha

Despite the Borg's inception as a faceless swarm, the writers chose to incorporate a figurehead into the Collective.~Memory Alpha

For Insurrection
It seems Piller and Berman literally have the sole responsibility for the film.

The meddling in Insurrection by the studio was considerable and sometimes...lamebrained but the truth was the stories coming out of Piller and Berman were obscenely ORDINARY not to mention ODD. Star Trek: Stardust featuring a race of Children?

I really don't have a problem with Insurrection. But it was an ordinary story and the studio detected that as well.

Nemesis was a disaster from start to finish.
How exactly they got a director like Baird to reproduce the same mediocrity as the other Directors and writers I will never know but once again Berman is at the Heart of the mediocrity with Logan and Spiner.


The recurring mediocirty...>Berman.

Keep in mind, the initial idea for Enterprise was very different from what we got and what came before. The whole first season was apparently going to be set on Earth as they build the ship. But the network nixed it right out.

Yes but was the first idea...GOOD?
You know when you get nixxed and overridden there can be both good and bad reasons for it?
I don't see how the ship built on Earth a year before there mission makes the story better.

You know usually the Studio has good reasons for nixxing these writer side thoughts and I have to say that the Studio has done a good job working with the Mediocrity that was coming from Berman. It doesn't seem they dictated everything. It seems that the stories were mediocre, uncreative and average.

~Enter Star Trek Enteprise for the majority of it's run save a few well thought of episodes that needed the ABSOLUTE backing of TOS and TNG to be recieved well. Doesn't that lend to the lack of creativity.

YES you can find the good in ENTERPRISE but there was just SO MUCH bad and mediocrity you could have used it for mortar to re tile several houses.

As for "what a fan wants"...you're kidding right? What do think fans want? And how universal do you actually think that is?

Forget the Fans.
People want suspense. A good story. Great Acting and Great Action. They want new, Eye poping special effects.

Star Trek scored on Acting Action and New, and Eye Popping. That's why it was so successful. But their gonning to have to bring more next time...alot more. You can't say that the entirety of Star Trek was mediocre...just the story line. JJ proved it was more than possible to polish a ball of crap. And he did a good job of it too.

Also, if you can going to say the films were failures, don't forget to throw Ron Moore and Michael Piller under the bus as well.

OF COURSE.
Berman was the man in charge. He relied on their small screen experience to float ALL FOUR of those Foul Films. But THEY....(and this is important) took their cues on stories from HIM. His input shaped ENT and those movies. It is more than correct to blame Berman because at the end of the day...he is the man holding ball. Everything passed through his hands...he never dared to dream larger...and I don't know in other cases but in the case of Trek ...to go this long...11 years of mediocre box office returns and slumping ratings....He just didn't get it. It's not about bailing out the water to slow the sinking of the franchise it's about righting the ship, putting her into dock, stripping off the old and refitting and old frame with a new dynamic.

...and I guess we'll call that a rant.
You can disagree but I've seen nothing inspiring from these guys and I'm thrilled that there is AT LEAST a new direction...for now.

 

[Broccoli]

I think that is a little unfair towards B&B. While, sure there was a part of them trying to keep to what was considered the "Roddenberry ideal", there was also pressure from the network to keep things safe and familiar.

Rick Berman was behind Generations and Braga and Moore[...]

You are quoting me out of context as I was referring to the television productions, not the movies.

But on your points...there was pressure from the studio with Generations. They had a laundry list of things they wanted done in the film. With First Contact, the production team had a much freer hand on doing what they wanted to do. This is according to Moore and Braga's audio commentary for Generations and First Contact.

And of course the story came from Berman and written by his hand-picked writers. Why wouldn't it be? I don't know what point you were trying to make by posting part of what Shatner was saying.

The studio interfered with again with Insurrection by forcing the production team to make it lighter in tone after the dark-ish First Contact. Initial drafts of INS had a very different tone.

By the time of Nemesis, the studio didn't seem to care anymore and saddled them with a director-for-hire with seeminly no personal vision for the film or interest in Trek. Granted, that doesn't excuse the laziness of the writing with Berman was a part of.

That's just the studio interference. Whether the films are good or not is, of course, another matter.

Despite the Borg's inception as a faceless swarm, the writers chose to incorporate a figurehead into the Collective.

~Memory Alpha

I don't understand what your point is here. B&M comment in their commentary that they felt it necessary, for a feature film with a wider audience, to have a direct antagonist for our heroes to interact with.

Yes but was the first idea...GOOD?
You know when you get nixxed and overridden there can be both good and bad reasons for it?
I don't see how the ship built on Earth a year before there mission makes the story better.

We will never know. Whether it would have been good or not is not the issue. Someone above was complaining how B&B just did the same old stuff again and again. Their initial idea for Enterprise was radically different from what came before.

But they were told "No! Stick with what works. Don't take risks!" The network also told them to include things like the transporter and other familiar Trek staples when B&B were purposefully going to leave them out. They also wanted more "future aspects" in the show (leading to the creation of the temporal cold war), because the 22nd century wasn't "future enough". The network was also the ones to force the words "Star Trek" into the title during season 3.

I'm not saying Berman is a saint, but to suggest that Berman is the root of all evil is incredibly shortsighted in context on how his hands were being tied down.

You know usually the Studio has good reasons for nixxing these writer side thoughts and I have to say that the Studio has done a good job working with the Mediocrity that was coming from Berman.

To the network, it's mostly dollars and cents. Their "good reasons" are "That is too different! It might not make us money! Lets not take any risks (even if we are on a failing network)!"

They wanted a show that wouldn't stray away from the established Trek formula, because they felt that anything different would lose them money. If anything, Berman and Co. did a good job working with the network for putting up with their demands.