is Lost the best example of arced storytelling on TV?

[TheGodBen]

I'm fine with Lost being all about the characters in the end. A story can be character-focused without being a soap. It really depends on how much they rely on the usual soap cliches, such as fussing over who sleeps with whom. I know a soap when I see it, and I avoid them.

If Lost ended after season 4 then I could accept the writer's claims that Lost was about the characters, because up until that point it largely was. Yes, there were mysteries, but at the end of it all it was about several groups of people with competing agendas, the group that wanted to leave the island (the Losties), the group that wanted to protect the island (the Others/Locke) and the group that wanted control of the island (Widmore's cabal). A lot of the the drama in in the series came from genuine character moments, conflicts of ideology, vendettas, secrets and lies. The best moments in the series were often character-centric: Locke standing up after the crash; Desmond and Penny talking on the phone; Alex being shot in front of Ben's eyes. It was a very good character show.

Sadly, those elements of the show diminished in season 5 as the show focused more on the plot and the characters became pawns rather than the driving force behind the story. The biggest example I can think of this is when Jack, Kate, Hurley and Sayid travelled back to 1977. Why did that happen? Because the plot needed those four people to join up with Sawyer and co. Why did Sun and Ben stay in 2007? Because the plot needed them there. It was a completely random thing to happen and not at all based on character decisions. (And don't give me the excuse that only the candidates went back in time because that doesn't work. According to Jacob, Kate was already off his list because she was a mother.) They even screwed up the death of Locke, my favourite character on the show, so that it had no emotional resonance. I felt sadder when Boone, a complete nobody, died than I felt when my favourite character died. When season 6 began I hoped that they would fix this and go back to being a good character drama, and in a way it seems like the flash-sideways was an attempt to do just that. Sadly, they screwed that up by turning it into another mystery to leave people guessing, if we had known all along that this was some form of purgatory then it might have been okay, but without that information those scenes lost a hell of a lot of emotional context and just ended up being a little boring.

Lost wasn't always about the characters, but it was heavily about the characters for the first 4 seasons. After that it was about lights and random time-travelling and timeless monsters with really poor motivation. Hell, the third-last episode was a mythology episode about two guys and a woman we barely even knew.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Lost wasn't always about the characters, but it was heavily about the characters for the first 4 seasons. After that it was about lights and random time-travelling and timeless monsters with really poor motivation.

I had the opposite impression - in the early seasons, Lost was about the mysteries for me. It wasn't till the last couple seasons that I really realized that during all that time, the characters had grown in depth and the depth of their relationships that the show really became about them for me, and the mysteries was just something fun to puzzle over.

 

[Ubik]

Well, Lost was certainly the most ambitious arc-based storytelling I'd ever seen on tv, and because it worked for so much of the time, I'd have to say yes, it's probably the best, so far. Ultimately, it doesn't make much more sense than X-Files did, in terms of explaining its mysteries, but I think it maintained a high quality for longer than X-Files did, and it also became exclusively arc-based, unlike X-Files.

But I still have an empty feeling from that finale, and I'm still waiting for an arc-based show that works until the end. In retrospect, the latter few seasons of Lost were nowhere near as good as the first few....I think it stopped working for me when the characters actually got off the island. Until then, it was more intimate, more character-based, more mysterious, and more compelling. It was strange as hell, really, really strange, and magical, and fucked up. After that, after they got off the island, and they started with the flash forwards, the show got much more plot-based, much faster, much more expansive, and more arc-based...but, indeed, it was just when it took on that mythical epic arc-based storytelling that the show lost its true power, I think. It became about filling in answers, and connecting dots, and moving people around, and explaining things - and what was lost, above all, was atmosphere.

Remember how crazy it was, back in the first season, when they heard the French lady's recording for the first time, and we realized it had been repeating for 17 years? Remember how screwed up it seemed when they found a hatch, an actual hatch, in the middle of this deserted island? It was crazy! In those early years, there was an atmosphere of dread and mystery that was palpable, and addictive, and unique. The show lost that feeling, I think, just as it got more complicated.

I guess what I'm saying is, I'm not convinced that the complicated juggling of arc-based storytelling, which was admittedly well-juggled, really helped the show. In my feeling, yes, it gained a vast mythology, but I think it may have lost a sense of wonder.

 

[startrekwatcher]

But I still have an empty feeling from that finale, and I'm still waiting for an arc-based show that works until the end.

That was one of the most disappointing things about Lost in season 6 and the series finale--LOST was doing such a marvelous job of keeping it together and knowing what they were doing that it wouldn't fall apart so close to the end yet it did. I thought for sure LOST would finally be the first series to do Mythology right.

In retrospect, the latter few seasons of Lost were nowhere near as good as the first few....I think it stopped working for me when the characters actually got off the island.

S1 was good for characters and building up the mysteries and yes atmosphere. S3-5 for me were the best of the show though--fast-paced, tons of interesting revelations, twists, strong cliffhangers, continuity, action, pulling disparate threads together, ambitious epic storytelling, intriguing plot developments, compelling character dynamics among the various personalities, pain-staking attention to the details, outstanding production values, expansive cast of characters spread out all over the place, multiple locales and sets.

But yeah like I've mentioned over the last few weeks that when we saw that some of the survivors get off the island and find rescue it left you wondering how they could top this? What could they do to up the ante in its final season when most of us thought that that particular question would come then not smack dab in the middle of the series run. And the answer was sadly nothing.

"Theres No Place Like Home" in season four really was the series turning point in retrospect--it was the big moment that they never could outdo. Don't get me wrong I think Season 5 was very very good and they really managed to maintain the same quality as we got in the last half of season 3 and all of season 4 but season 6--the year it really should have hit a climatic point just fizzled. The Coming War Widmore hinted at in "The Life & Death of Jeremy Bentham" I thought might be something that could frame the final season but it really didn't amount to much.

Until then, it was more intimate, more character-based, more mysterious, and more compelling. It was strange as hell, really, really strange, and magical, and fucked up. After that, after they got off the island, and they started with the flash forwards, the show got much more plot-based, much faster, much more expansive, and more arc-based...but, indeed, it was just when it took on that mythical epic arc-based storytelling that the show lost its true power, I think. It became about filling in answers, and connecting dots, and moving people around, and explaining things - and what was lost, above all, was atmosphere.

In those early years, there was an atmosphere of dread and mystery that was palpable, and addictive, and unique. The show lost that feeling, I think, just as it got more complicated.

LOST really took the Mystery Genre to the Nth Degree. And like any mystery--it has its intriguing teases, clues, puzzle pieces, major & minor mysteries. What Lost did well in those first 3 seasons is build up the mystery of those various mysteries--Dharma, the hatch, the Black Rock, Richard Alpert, the smoke monster, the statue, the Others, Jacob, the island, Ben etc. But like any mystery the time comes when you have to provide answers and explain the mysteries. Just as important as actually answering them is the answering them satisfactorily.

I thought for the most part LOST did answer a lot of the questions to my satisfaction. A lot of them we got complete answers--who were the Oceanic Six, would they find rescue, what was the statue, why didn't richard age, what was the incident, who was richard etc. But then there were some that the writers started answering but I saw as never being truly finished and so that contributed to a feel of incompleteness with regards to the Mythology like the nature of the Smoke Monster or the mystery of Jacob's cabin or the Dharma Initiative/Hanso. Then there were those mysteries where we did get answers but I didn't like them i.e. who/what Jacob was, what the whispers were etc.

When I look at the series now after it is over I see my assessment of it being evolving. LOST was a series where you started out with one perspective of it and your satisfaction with it on its own then as new pieces were added along the way and a spin on a scene or mystery resulted you would go back and see a scene or storyline in a new light.

I'll still remember how eerie it was when the smoke slithered across our scenes late in season one but this time I'll know what it is and what the origin of it was and be let down. I'll still be creeped out when the Others dressed as Deliverance rejects kidnap Walt but a little letdown by the fact that the Others were a mundane bunch just recruited to protect the island. The Hatch will still be ominous even though it turns out to be a research station.

But I think what you are basically saying was that when the writers pulled back the curtain to reveal the mystery it removed the aura surrounding it now that you know what it was. Though that's inevitable with any mystery. I really can't penalize S4-5 for that. The writers couldn't just drag it out or be all set-up to retain the mysterious aura. Those middle and later seasons were the point where they had to switch from set-up to payoff and answers.

I'd als argue that the series still maintained atmosphere effectively--the creepy village that Sun and Frank arrive at in Season 5, the spookiness of Jacob's cabin or the converation betwen Bram and Frank about something more terrifying than Locke's body in the box, the flat out weirdness of this jarring image of a manmade wheel at the center of the island, that chilling sight of "Locke" wrapped in a black blanket seemingly resurrected on hydra island or seeing Ben unnerved by Locke's resurrection most notably in his conversation with Sun in "Dead is Dead".

I will say that switching back to a character focus so sharply in season six and pretty much relegating the mythology and plot to the sidelines was extremely jarring. Not only because it felt dictated by the fact this was the final season so naturally they thought it is time to induce sentamentality in the audience but also because the character work was nowhere near as good or compelling as say in season one.

And while it may not be the same thing you were talking about the series did a fabulous job as far as capturing expertly the atmosphere of the various time periods they visited in season 5--with the musical selection, the film they used--it definitely "looked" like the 50s, the 70s, the late 80s.

 

[sidious618]

The Wire is better but I enjoyed LOST more if that makes sense.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

I'm still waiting for an arc-based show that works until the end.

Dexter could be it. If they figure out how to end it well. If they do, it'll be a total surprise to me because none of the options I can think of are satisfying.

Then again, I thought the afterlife option would be unsatisfying for Lost and was rooting for the holosuite test scenario.

Jack/Kate/Sawyer
Juliet/Sawyer
Jin/Sun
Desmond/Penny
Charlie/Claire
Hurley/Libby
Sayid/Shannon (yes, it should have been Nadia but no one in their right mind really, truly believes that Lost wrote good characters, they believe Lost wrote cool characters)
Rose/Bernard

The finale really did show what Lost was all about, and it was mostly about these pairings.

What a highly selective list. Lost was also about the non-romantic pairings - Jack and Sawyer, Jack and Locke, Locke and Ben, Kate and Claire, Sawyer and Miles, etc. And it's simple-minded to call something a soap just because it's about relationships. The great works of fiction are also about relationships - that's the foundation of drama. Did Shakespeare write "soaps"?

The reason the writers subjugated their mystery plotline to the relationships plotline is because like all good writers, they realize that how human beings relate to one another is the most important element of fiction, and they wanted their story to be important in the end. The mysteries were fun, but they were just a gimmick. I don't blame them for jettisoning their gimmick in the end in favor of something more elemental.

 

[auntiehill]

For me, it would be a toss-up between LOST and Deadwood. However, because LOST had more time and was able to do more of a wrap-up, LOST has the edge.

I would love to see Dexter pull off something on the same level; that would be quite a feat.

 

[startrekwatcher]

The reason the writers subjugated their mystery plotline to the relationships plotline is because like all good writers, they realize that how human beings relate to one another is the most important element of fiction, and they wanted their story to be important in the end. The mysteries were fun, but they were just a gimmick. I don't blame them for jettisoning their gimmick in the end in favor of something more elemental.

Yes I would argue in most cases characters are what people tune in for but I would argue that they were no longer the primary focus for the last three previous seasons--certainly not the way they were in season one--the plot & mythology were. If you go back and look at seasons 3-5 it is very much plot, more plot and even more plot--the characters are just along for the ride. That doesn't bother me I just think the way, I would argue, they abruptly shifted gears because this was the final season was jarring.

They had us invest in the mythology and the mysteries stringing us along with the repeated promises they had learn the lessons of other botched mythologies and everything was mapped out and just stick with them. In this final season, they acted like bored children who grew tired of playing with their mythology and just threw it aside neglectfully and decided now they wanted to play with the characters.

L/C wanted to go back to serialized dramas' more traditional roots--slow the pace, focus on the characters. But I had two issues with this--1) the character arcs/stories they set up for the final season were boring and not compelling for the most part and therefore insufficient to draw my attention towards them and away from the more compelling mythology and 2) it felt this was only happening because that is what they felt final seasons of shows should do.

I could care less about Jack/Kate/Sawyer. Sayid the zombie was botched. Claire's arc was just as badly mishandled as her hair--now we know why no hairbushes--Smokey hid them so Claire's hair would look like crap. Hurley was just annoying. I don't give a crap about Libby/Hurley. Jin spent the season as a Kidnapped Plot Device and Sun struck her head--woo hoo major character work there!. Locke was dead. MIB and Jacob failed after started out as intriguing figures. Boone, Shannon, Michael, Ana Lucia, Eloise, Widmore made pointless cameos. Richard was a plot device, Ilana an exploding Plot device. Ben was pretty much non-existent.

The only one that had any semblance of a satisfying arc was Jack but he was made to look like an idiot more than I would have liked.

So yes the series finale had a very good idea in how to tackle the emotional side of things--these characters--both on and offscreen had become a family and had such a bond because of everything they went through that it transcended death. However, these characters were all over the place spread out for so many years that it just didn't feel that the idea was genuine to these particular characters. If you had done something like this on BSG, DS9, TNG I would buy it--LOST not as much.

 

[LitmusDragon]

I would give the slight nod to Deadwood, I think. In terms of an arc that builds up momentum as it goes along, I think Deadwood worked better overall. Lost was a great show but as much as it wanted to be about an overall arc it was just as much about left-field reveals that weren't always explained properly.

 

[startrekwatcher]

I would give the slight nod to Deadwood, I think. In terms of an arc that builds up momentum as it goes along, I think Deadwood worked better overall. Lost was a great show but as much as it wanted to be about an overall arc it was just as much about left-field reveals that weren't always explained properly.

The thing to remember about LOST is that unlike traditional serialized dramas where each season had an arc and was relatively self-contained, LOST was extremely interconnected.

Yes it did treat the seasons as volumes with their own set of new characters, mysteries and focus but everything tied from one season to the next in some way to varying degrees. Also because the show was extremely dense and interwoven to judge it is a monumental task given how you had all these characters, character connections, plot elements that weaved in and out and overlapped and to boot how the viewer can play around and assemble the pieces forming all sorts of storylines that LOST is best examined in chunks.

LOST was most certainly on a path to definitively being the best arc-based series but what sunk it was the way it halted developing the mythology the rest of the way--now you have an unifinished framework--some questions were answered totally, some began to be answered but wasn't completely wrapped up.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

If you go back and look at seasons 3-5 it is very much plot, more plot and even more plot--the characters are just along for the ride.

Or you could say that the ride was there to give the characters a chance to be who they are, and to learn to work together and depend on each other - "nobody does it alone."

For whatever reason, I wasn't surprised to see that the ending had more to do with the characters than the mytharc. Somehow, I'd gotten the idea that that's where it was all headed. I'd have to rewatch those seasons (which I plan to do as soon as I get my paws on the whole set!) to see exactly how and why that happened.

For instance, what was the point of the nuke? It really didn't accomplish much storywise, except to get the characters from Point A to Point B. Any maguffin element could have done that.

But character-wise, Juliet's death had profound impacts on Kate, Sawyer and Jack. It ended the love quadrangle once and for all, forced Sawyer to see that Kate wasn't the girl for him, started Jack on the road to understanding that he can't control everything, and by removing Sawyer from the picture, propelled Kate towards Jack once and for all.

There were a lot of things like the nuke, plot conveniences that existed just to move things along. And every time they answered a mystery, ten more questions would pop up. If I'd been in it mainly for the mysteries and the plot, I might have been one of those folks who gave up in frustration before the end. Being in it for the characters was how you could have a satisfying experience through the whole run.

 

[startrekwatcher]

There were a lot of things like the nuke, plot conveniences that existed just to move things along. And every time they answered a mystery, ten more questions would pop up. If I'd been in it mainly for the mysteries and the plot, I might have been one of those folks who gave up in frustration before the end. Being in it for the characters was how you could have a satisfying experience through the whole run.

I have just found that big epic series like LOST or Heroes in season one just aren't conducive to forming the kind of deep connections with the characters as your more traditional dramas. There are just too many characters, the series is just too densely plotted, too fast-paced jumping around feverishly that it ultimately causes the characters to get lost in the shuffle--for me anyways.

I just saw them mainly there to drive the story, react to their situations, investigate, be action figures. They also were there to help provide a piece of the puzzle for the audience. Sure there were fleeting character moments and the writers did a good job keeping the characters behaving like themselves but the mythology and the plot I just found infinitely more compelling and engrossing--that is what I looked forward to the most each week i.e. finding out new plot revelations, clues, twists, intriguing plot developments, being shocked by things I didn't see coming.

I was just simply more jazzed by that stuff than the Sawyer/Kate/Jack love triangle for instance--in fact, I found Kate more interesting and fun to watch when it wasn't about her and more when she was in the thick of things reacting like helping Richard & the Others to rescue Ben from Keamey.

And personally I felt that these big mythology-laden series do best when they focus on that and just make sure they have likeable characters the way LOST and S1 Heroes did and not like V or Flash Forward didn't.

After the way LOST ended I have to say that I'm not particularly crazy about series-spanning mythology anymore and it really is a distraction if the writers want to do a series all about the characters--they ultimately get lost in the mix.

That's why I would prefer shows to still remain serialized but go back to a more traditional format with a modest ensemble to where you can create that bond between the characters and the audience. I'd also think that if LOST couldn't pull off mythology up until the very end then the odds of another series anytime soon doing so are very slim so let's stick with season long arcs that are self-contained and don't span the whole series--like season one of Heroes pretty much did--they raised a bunch of questions and answered them throughout the year and then launched a whole new story and series of characters with qustions the next season. The Xindi arc on ENT did this well as did The Vampire Diaries this year and The Legend of the Seeker-that seems to be the best compromise. It is manageable for the audience and the writers.

re:Lost raising questions constantly and me expecting a satisfactory wrap-up

Well for starters the writers had demonstrated a track record of doing it. I just assumed that like in S3-5 the show in its final year would continue to pull everything together and while not seeing how initially the writers could pull all these seemingly disconnected pieces and dozens of mysteries/questions together would do so by revealing key pieces and secret connections ultimately pulling more and more together to where they collapsed into one big moment the way S1 Heroes did. I felt that any stragglers from all previous five seasons were being saved for the last year and would be tied up nicely. Instead, they just dropped the mythology for the most part after "The Incident" and shifted back to characters. The problem with that was the characters weren't as interesting as they were in season one--the one season I contend was about the characters. For all the talk of how great the character work was this final season so why should we care about mythology--I found the character arcs pretty unsatisfying(as compared to say the character resolution the DS9 characters got).

 

[kipron]

I would say Six Feet Under is still the best, it managed very poignant and realistic character drama without the need for an intractable fantasy-based mytharc. Finally a series where 'character' and 'plot' mean the same thing.

 

[Brolan]

Hell no. Babylon 5 is the only arc show where the mysteries in the first seasons of the show were actually all resolved by the end. All the others created many more mysteries than they could answer; and it was glaringly obvious by the end the writers either didn't have a plan, or they didn't stick to it.