Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniskirt?

[froot]

Re: Would we've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniski

They were clearly hoping the audience would be mature enough to accept the captain without pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Ah, but if the writers did not take "the lowest common denominator" into account, they would not have an audience. We are all ruled by our genes, e.g., scientists have recently found that a drug used to treat Parkinson's disease can trigger compulsive gambling. This means that our genes have already established receptors for the "gambling signal", otherwise that drug could not have this side-effect. Once the signal is detected, people start gambling and their conscious minds begin to invent reasons why they are doing this when, the fact is, the conscious mind had nothing to do with it. Men's genes tell them to spread their seed far and wide. Female genes tell them to latch onto a man fierce enough to protect her while she's busy being pregnant and giving birth (the bad boy syndrome), and to find someone loyal enough to stay with her and help raise the kids (not necessarily the same person). As the great philosopher Popeye said, "I yam what I yam and thats all what I yam."

What.

...What happened I don't even

I guess I'm glad I have a conscious mind where I can make my own choices, genetics be damned?

 

[Zameaze]

Re: Would we've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniski

Ah, but if the writers did not take "the lowest common denominator" into account, they would not have an audience. We are all ruled by our genes, e.g., scientists have recently found that a drug used to treat Parkinson's disease can trigger compulsive gambling. This means that our genes have already established receptors for the "gambling signal", otherwise that drug could not have this side-effect. Once the signal is detected, people start gambling and their conscious minds begin to invent reasons why they are doing this when, the fact is, the conscious mind had nothing to do with it. Men's genes tell them to spread their seed far and wide. Female genes tell them to latch onto a man fierce enough to protect her while she's busy being pregnant and giving birth (the bad boy syndrome), and to find someone loyal enough to stay with her and help raise the kids (not necessarily the same person). As the great philosopher Popeye said, "I yam what I yam and thats all what I yam."

What.

...What happened I don't even

I guess I'm glad I have a conscious mind where I can make my own choices, genetics be damned?

Yes, you have a conscious mind that tells you that you can make your own choice. But when tested, impulses are already on their way when our conscious mind thinks it makes a choice.

Here's a nice summary of current scientific understanding on free will, written by Dennis Overbye in the New York Times:

A bevy of experiments in recent years suggest that the conscious mind is like a monkey riding a tiger of subconscious decisions and actions in progress, frantically making up stories about being in control. [Our] conscious brain [is] only playing catch-up to what the unconscious brain [is] already doing.

In other words, our unconscious (genetically programmed) brain perceives the world for us, motivates us toward some situations over others, colors our experiences with pre-wired dispositions (emotions), and triggers our reactions. The higher brain is left to make up (confabulate) reasons for why we did what we did, based on the illusion of free will.

 

[kimc]

Re: Would we've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniski

I guess I'm glad I have a conscious mind where I can make my own choices, genetics be damned?

Where there's a will there's a way.

 

[Cpt_Blalock]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

While I loath the very concept of unisex uniforms, i don't think the mini skirt is appropriate for the Captain of a ship. But then again I wouldn't have given Janeway a command either, but thats for a different description all together.

I find it totally insane how some people want to deny a woman her femininity, rob her of her dignity, and force her to cross-dress simply because they can't see a woman as a man's equal unless she's dressed like, and some times required to act like, a man.

Its just plain stupid. I know that if I actually do succeed with my face book campaign to get a new Star Trek series made, and get a say in how it is presented, unisex uniforms will be right out. But so will the lazy writing practice of long strings of Technobabble. But that too is a discussion for another thread.

 

[Cpt_Blalock]

Re: Would we've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniski

What.

...What happened I don't even

I guess I'm glad I have a conscious mind where I can make my own choices, genetics be damned?

Yes, you have a conscious mind that tells you that you can make your own choice. But when tested, impulses are already on their way when our conscious mind thinks it makes a choice.

Here's a nice summary of current scientific understanding on free will, written by Dennis Overbye in the New York Times:

A bevy of experiments in recent years suggest that the conscious mind is like a monkey riding a tiger of subconscious decisions and actions in progress, frantically making up stories about being in control. [Our] conscious brain [is] only playing catch-up to what the unconscious brain [is] already doing.

In other words, our unconscious (genetically programmed) brain perceives the world for us, motivates us toward some situations over others, colors our experiences with pre-wired dispositions (emotions), and triggers our reactions. The higher brain is left to make up (confabulate) reasons for why we did what we did, based on the illusion of free will.

So what your saying is that you don't believe in free will?

If thats the case, please don't vote. After all we only want people that Know they can overcome their carnal impulses to be making the decisions round here.

 

[froot]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

While I loath the very concept of unisex uniforms, i don't think the mini skirt is appropriate for the Captain of a ship. But then again I wouldn't have given Janeway a command either, but thats for a different description all together.

I find it totally insane how some people want to deny a woman her femininity, rob her of her dignity, and force her to cross-dress simply because they can't see a woman as a man's equal unless she's dressed like, and some times required to act like, a man.

Its just plain stupid. I know that if I actually do succeed with my face book campaign to get a new Star Trek series made, and get a say in how it is presented, unisex uniforms will be right out. But so will the lazy writing practice of long strings of Technobabble. But that too is a discussion for another thread.

I tend to dress rather casually and comfortably. I rarely wear dresses or skirts unless it is a special occasion. Am I somehow robbing myself of femininity by doing so? Why should I dress to impress men? How does that liberate me? The fact of the matter is, those unisex jumpsuits are functional, and that's what's important. If I want to dress for comfort or function, I am crossing the line and being a man?

I have no dignity the moment I am not being attractive to men?

Since when is wearing something that is unisex cross-dressing? Is acting tough in a hard situation only for men, too? Should we all preserve our femininity and weep openly whilst watching Lifetime movies instead of being tough?

 

[SRFX]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

While I loath the very concept of unisex uniforms, i don't think the mini skirt is appropriate for the Captain of a ship. But then again I wouldn't have given Janeway a command either, but thats for a different description all together.

I find it totally insane how some people want to deny a woman her femininity, rob her of her dignity, and force her to cross-dress simply because they can't see a woman as a man's equal unless she's dressed like, and some times required to act like, a man.

Its just plain stupid. I know that if I actually do succeed with my face book campaign to get a new Star Trek series made, and get a say in how it is presented, unisex uniforms will be right out. But so will the lazy writing practice of long strings of Technobabble. But that too is a discussion for another thread.

I tend to dress rather casually and comfortably. I rarely wear dresses or skirts unless it is a special occasion. Am I somehow robbing myself of femininity by doing so? Why should I dress to impress men? How does that liberate me? The fact of the matter is, those unisex jumpsuits are functional, and that's what's important. If I want to dress for comfort or function, I am crossing the line and being a man?

I have no dignity the moment I am not being attractive to men?

Since when is wearing something that is unisex cross-dressing? Is acting tough in a hard situation only for men, too? Should we all preserve our femininity and weep openly whilst watching Lifetime movies instead of being tough?

 

[TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

Janeway could look plenty hot in pants.

Move over K.D. Lang..

Really all you had to do was take her starfleet jacket off.. that one is from Macrocosm but see also the entirety of Year of Hell for lots of Janeway looking hot in dirt, sweat and and pants.

 

[kimc]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

Janeway could look plenty hot in pants.

This was actually a very daring look in it's day...

As for me when I want to wear pants I wear pants. When I want to wear a dress or skirt I do so. When I go to work I keep stuff covered. When I go out I uncover (or not) what I want.

I am queen of my domain.

 

[Praxius]

Re: Would we've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniski

I forgot to be aroused by the beautiful women on Voyager all the time because they were kitted up unisex, even though season one TNG insists that ordinary men wear miniskirts too, which would make miniskirts as unisex as trousers and all arguments about gendered wardrobe diffuse.

I mean considering the baited hook for Voyager was "look a girl is in charge, how empowering!" They really did their best to make Kathy out to be a guy, completely headstrong with very little tact or conspiracy, and could they keep her knees Victorianly covered up any more absolutely?

It's 30 years since I first saw that Romulan Commandrix from the Enterprise incident constantly arranging a severe Picard tug every four and a half seconds against the two inches of fabric draping south past her hips they afforded the girl to coverup her reproductive organs attempting to elasticate that sheer sheaf of regulation uniform into three inches and an ounce of modesty, and I've never once thought her sexuality was vacant nor her authority on the bridge isn't some stunt from the suits running the network, because I clearly couldn't think at all while she was on screen.

Goodness gracious me, if it was vogue enough for Zap Brannigan why not Kathy and B'Elanna?!

Should TPTB have been putting their actors in something clearly descended from TOSian miniskirts from the beginning, and more importantly if you were marking the wardrobe department would you have done "this" and do you suspect that it would have kept viewers glued?



Boys in miniskirts is hilarious, so they should be in skirts too right?

It's not what you wear, it's what you do. I have no issues with her possibly wearing those type of uniforms, but since they went the way of the DoDo around season 2 of TNG, it wouldn't make any sense to go through all of the rest of TNG and much of DS9 without them, only to bring the miniskirts back for when Voyager came along, simply because there's a female captain.

In fact, if one wants to look at this in a logical perspective, besides the old dress uniforms, when has anybody seen a Captain of any starship, in any of the shows, wear one of those miniskirt uniforms?

Sure males and females wore them on the enterprise, but I never seen a captain wear anything but the standard uniform..... so why would Janeway suddenly start wearing them?

I don't even remember seeing any other female captains wear them.

Again, I would disagree - but I would also ask: why should that even matter? Bujold, the original pick, was a little older still, and also not extremely curvy (I thought she was pretty foxy in Earthquake though ) They were clearly hoping the audience would be mature enough to accept the captain without pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Well also let's not forget the considerations of the female viewers..... Star Trek started off with Kirk.... from what I'm told, was an all-around, young, hot lookin fella to the ladies.... then comes in Picard.... by Kirk standards, fussy, old, bald, etc.....

What were some of the views of females watching the show in that comparison?

I know some women find Patrick Stewart handsome and mature etc... but let's be realistic..... some women were probably disappointed that there wasn't another young/studly captain like Kirk brought into the ST fold..... who got it on with just about every women he came across in the Galaxy.

There's nothing wrong with that.... it's how we all operate. Men and Women don't have to be labeled sexist simply because they'd like to see a certain male/female playing a role in a certain manner that would tickle their fancy, nor should others feel offended when someone expresses this.

Almost everyday I come across women who talk about this guy or that in a manner that if it was a guy doing the same thing and the roles reversed, some woman listening nearby would be greatly offended..... but I don't get fussy over such things..... women like talking about men the same way men like to talk about women.

I like seeing a female in a nice bikini or even less..... but that doesn't mean I think there should be laws to force women to abide to my likes, nor would I try and impose this..... same as woman saying they'd like to have most guys walking around with no shirt on.... or tight shorts, etc......

Some people in here saying they'd like to see Janeway in a miniskirt or more "Feminine" in someway and claiming they're being sexist in saying so, is jumping the gun imo.

 

[froot]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

I guess I can't speak for folks who saw Kirk first, since I mostly grew up on Picard, so I dunno if there was any comparison there. I always found Riker quite cute, though. He sort of filled in for Kirk as the ladies' man, I think.

If any women wrote Picard off simply because he was an older bald fellow in a jumpsuit, I do not think they were being fair, either. It goes both ways. And it's true in real life. In a perfect world, it's best to judge people on their merits, not how they look or dress. If the person is sexy, icing on the cake! But it's not the most important thing.

It's not so much that we can't find folks attractive and appreciate it - for the most part, the Trek casts are above-average in looks. It's more the claim that the characters are somehow diminished because they don't look or dress a certain way, and the only way for them to gain respect is to play up their physical attributes. The claim that somehow Janeway is intruding on "man" territory by wearing a uniform and getting dirty is also silly. It would be just as erroneous to claim that Picard was intruding on "woman" territory by being diplomatic and empathetic.

 

[froot]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

Also, thanks

 

[Praxius]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

I guess I can't speak for folks who saw Kirk first, since I mostly grew up on Picard, so I dunno if there was any comparison there. I always found Riker quite cute, though. He sort of filled in for Kirk as the ladies' man, I think.

If any women wrote Picard off simply because he was an older bald fellow in a jumpsuit, I do not think they were being fair, either. It goes both ways. And it's true in real life. In a perfect world, it's best to judge people on their merits, not how they look or dress. If the person is sexy, icing on the cake! But it's not the most important thing.

Agreed.... but everybody has their own tastes and while looks are not everything, people still judge based on them to some degree or another. (Some more then others)

But even I can turn a blind eye to a couple of girls bantering over this guy or that, looking hot if they did this or wore that..... sure there's probably a tad bit of sexism if one wants to dig deep for it, but it's fantasy speculations at best and is all in good fun.

It's not so much that we can't find folks attractive and appreciate it - for the most part, the Trek casts are above-average in looks. It's more the claim that the characters are somehow diminished because they don't look or dress a certain way, and the only way for them to gain respect is to play up their physical attributes.

I see where you're coming from, but for me, depending on the tone of how someone said the above, could mean two different things.

Since it was typed, I can only assume so much on what they truly were meaning.

Then again, I'm pretty basic when it comes to other's visual appeal.... Janeway looked like a woman in the uniform as is, and she would have looked like a woman no matter what she wore.... the face, hair, figure, voice.... it all tells me she's a female.

Though I suppose for some people, unless they dress the part as they subjectively expect, then they're not entirely female to that person and hinting more towards being a man.

I don't get it myself.... but then, I'm pretty straight forward and literal with many things. If you got boobs and a vagina, you're female.... what you wear doesn't matter to me.... much like having a penis and more body hair makes you a man, regardless of what you wear (of course there's exceptions, but I'll keep this simple for now)

The claim that somehow Janeway is intruding on "man" territory by wearing a uniform and getting dirty is also silly. It would be just as erroneous to claim that Picard was intruding on "woman" territory by being diplomatic and empathetic.

While I don't see the comparison with Picard, I do understand how you'd find the above silly in regards to Man Territory.

The reason why I understand is for different reasons..... If Janeway was intruding on "Man" territory because she wore the same style uniform (which she didn't as the female uniforms were sized differently of course) then she wasn't the first woman to do this and one would have to go all the way back to TNG to see all the other female captains who wore similar uniforms and were not restricted to miniskirts......

As I see it, blame them first before trashing all over Janeway, or else the argument appears even more silly.

I mean for me, sure, seeing Janeway and the other women in more revealing uniforms/clothing sure wouldn't offend me or make me turn off the show.... I'd probably be more of a fan then I already am and would remind me of Baywatch in Space.... but them wearing revealing clothes isn't necessary and I don't think of them any less because of it.

I mean, I Imagine you wouldn't mind seeing a few more episodes with Riker walking around with fewer clothes on..... that's just what guys and girls do.... it's the opposite sex attraction thing.

Anyways, I forgot what my point was and have been rambling for too long...

 

[Guy Gardener]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

I saw Dee shave his back in the bath in one movie they were in.

Frakes was Stewarts stunt cock supposedly. Picard could be as dignified as he wanted because there was a blinking red lightbulb out side Commander Rikers quarters. Though I have no idea why he ran from lwaxanna, since although she was batshit crazy, she was easily as hot as she was crazy, though my impression of the woman is flavoured by the actresses' appearance in TOS... Where she wore pants as the ships XO.

I was thinking that if Voyager for the the 30th anniversary had been given the Forrest Gumping that DS9 had received but still intended on doing roughly the same script as Future's End, the having janeways bunch traipse through Assignment Earth in 1960s period costuumes would have been peachy keen and a magnificent excuse for the women on Voyager to wear their dresses at least as short as the magnificent Terri Garr.

 

[Zameaze]

Re: Would we've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a miniski

...What happened I don't even

I guess I'm glad I have a conscious mind where I can make my own choices, genetics be damned?

Yes, you have a conscious mind that tells you that you can make your own choice. But when tested, impulses are already on their way when our conscious mind thinks it makes a choice.

Here's a nice summary of current scientific understanding on free will, written by Dennis Overbye in the New York Times:

A bevy of experiments in recent years suggest that the conscious mind is like a monkey riding a tiger of subconscious decisions and actions in progress, frantically making up stories about being in control. [Our] conscious brain [is] only playing catch-up to what the unconscious brain [is] already doing.

In other words, our unconscious (genetically programmed) brain perceives the world for us, motivates us toward some situations over others, colors our experiences with pre-wired dispositions (emotions), and triggers our reactions. The higher brain is left to make up (confabulate) reasons for why we did what we did, based on the illusion of free will.

So what your saying is that you don't believe in free will?

If thats the case, please don't vote. After all we only want people that Know they can overcome their carnal impulses to be making the decisions round here.

Now, there's an intelligent argument. Making it personal certainly does refute the science.

 

[froot]

Re: Would the've accepted Kathy as a woman if her uniform was a minisk

I guess I can't speak for folks who saw Kirk first, since I mostly grew up on Picard, so I dunno if there was any comparison there. I always found Riker quite cute, though. He sort of filled in for Kirk as the ladies' man, I think.

If any women wrote Picard off simply because he was an older bald fellow in a jumpsuit, I do not think they were being fair, either. It goes both ways. And it's true in real life. In a perfect world, it's best to judge people on their merits, not how they look or dress. If the person is sexy, icing on the cake! But it's not the most important thing.

Agreed.... but everybody has their own tastes and while looks are not everything, people still judge based on them to some degree or another. (Some more then others)

But even I can turn a blind eye to a couple of girls bantering over this guy or that, looking hot if they did this or wore that..... sure there's probably a tad bit of sexism if one wants to dig deep for it, but it's fantasy speculations at best and is all in good fun.

It's not so much that we can't find folks attractive and appreciate it - for the most part, the Trek casts are above-average in looks. It's more the claim that the characters are somehow diminished because they don't look or dress a certain way, and the only way for them to gain respect is to play up their physical attributes.

I see where you're coming from, but for me, depending on the tone of how someone said the above, could mean two different things.

Since it was typed, I can only assume so much on what they truly were meaning.

Then again, I'm pretty basic when it comes to other's visual appeal.... Janeway looked like a woman in the uniform as is, and she would have looked like a woman no matter what she wore.... the face, hair, figure, voice.... it all tells me she's a female.

Though I suppose for some people, unless they dress the part as they subjectively expect, then they're not entirely female to that person and hinting more towards being a man.

I don't get it myself.... but then, I'm pretty straight forward and literal with many things. If you got boobs and a vagina, you're female.... what you wear doesn't matter to me.... much like having a penis and more body hair makes you a man, regardless of what you wear (of course there's exceptions, but I'll keep this simple for now)

The claim that somehow Janeway is intruding on "man" territory by wearing a uniform and getting dirty is also silly. It would be just as erroneous to claim that Picard was intruding on "woman" territory by being diplomatic and empathetic.

While I don't see the comparison with Picard, I do understand how you'd find the above silly in regards to Man Territory.

The reason why I understand is for different reasons..... If Janeway was intruding on "Man" territory because she wore the same style uniform (which she didn't as the female uniforms were sized differently of course) then she wasn't the first woman to do this and one would have to go all the way back to TNG to see all the other female captains who wore similar uniforms and were not restricted to miniskirts......

As I see it, blame them first before trashing all over Janeway, or else the argument appears even more silly.

I mean for me, sure, seeing Janeway and the other women in more revealing uniforms/clothing sure wouldn't offend me or make me turn off the show.... I'd probably be more of a fan then I already am and would remind me of Baywatch in Space.... but them wearing revealing clothes isn't necessary and I don't think of them any less because of it.

I mean, I Imagine you wouldn't mind seeing a few more episodes with Riker walking around with fewer clothes on..... that's just what guys and girls do.... it's the opposite sex attraction thing.

Anyways, I forgot what my point was and have been rambling for too long...

Sorry, I suppose I've lost my way a little myself. I dunno if I can find my point, either.

Anyway, I think I agree with you for the most part, although I'd be dissappointed if they sexed the outfits up too much, while you wouldn't much mind one way or another. It was one of the things that didn't sit well with me in ENT. The cast in ENT was very good-looking, but I felt like they were trying too hard by forcing me to look at them in their underwears all the time. No subtlety! It just felt like those bathing scenes were played for ratings.

Deep down, I wouldn't mind seeing the males more naked now and then. But the real attention in Star Trek should be to the characters' personalities and their stories. I think something special would be lost if it was Baywatch in Space.