Was Vina Fertile?

[Timo]

Plot hole: Why did the Talosians wait so long before scanning the Enterprise's memory banks? Why didn't they learn as much as they could about human history and culture as soon as they had Pike in captivity?

Well, the one thing that did change at that juncture was that the Talosians got two human women. After that, they initiated the information hijack, and Spock may well have been correct in his interpretation that they did this merely because they wanted to destroy the ship (now that they had everything they wanted), and saw some incidental merit in robbing the ship before destruction.

Capturing members of all sexes would seem like an obvious criterion for success. Perhaps the Talosians were seasoned abductors in this respect, and well knew that they had to treat their prey with velvet gloves until this goal was reached.

Learning about their captives would never have been a priority for the Talosians - what possible advantage would that give, when the captives were already nicely under control and would soon forget all about their previous life and so-called culture?

Unless the Talosians were divine, then I assume their desire to create a race of humans from breeding just 2 of them, was destined for failure.

Was it? Some recent research suggests that inbreeding is much less of a problem than previously thought (although that admittedly pertains to somewhat larger inbreeding populations). And the technology to correct the worst problems might be relatively primitive, far from divine - us puny humans might well master it in the next five years.

Perhaps more significantly, Talosians might not need a "race" of humans. Just, say, four or five generations of slaves might be enough to get their civilization back up and running, in their own (probably quite unrealistic) projections. And after that, it's a big bonus if the slave race degenerates and dies out. Saves the Talosians the expenses of execution pits.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[maryh]

Perhaps more significantly, Talosians might not need a "race" of humans. Just, say, four or five generations of slaves might be enough to get their civilization back up and running, in their own (probably quite unrealistic) projections. And after that, it's a big bonus if the slave race degenerates and dies out. Saves the Talosians the expenses of execution pits.

Timo Saloniemi

Are the Talosians that cruel? I think they thought that their menagerie was happy, and didn't mind the captivity as long as they got a few illusions every now and then. They showed compassion when they allowed Pike to stay with them and would furnish him with illusions. They also continued to care for Vina and furnish her with illusions even after she became unuseful to them.

 

[Timo]

That doesn't exclude utilitarian cruelty at all. Such comforts would come cheap for the Talosians, and they would impose their own standards of happiness on their captives, much like we do for the lower lifeforms we enslave for our purposes.

There'd apparently be an attitude change as the result of their fumbled attempt at capturing Pike, Number One and Colt. Perhaps it came as the result of them assimilating data on the human culture, perhaps from a study of the captured humans; perhaps it adjusted the Talosian attitude towards humans only, perhaps it affected their thinking about other species in general and even made them rethink their plans of slave races. We don't know, and can't know, because the one thing Talosians obviously were both capable of and interested in is showing us what we want to see.

We want to see compassion in "The Menagerie", but essentially we see the original Talosian enslavement plans come to fruition at long last: they have two members of a technologically advanced and driven species at their disposal, both conditioned to being friendly towards their captors now, and the potential for breeding exists.

Major showstoppers might involve Vina being too old (or not existing) or Pike being infertile as the result of his accident. But since the powers of the Talosians were in "The Menagerie" shown to be even greater than in "The Cage", it's quite possible that a major part of Kirk's crew was left behind along with Pike, to help the slave race project to a good start...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Myasishchev]

You know, I had a whole thing written up, but this is pretty much the understanding of biology one could expect from someone whose closest exposure to it has been Star Trek.

How incredibly insulting. Particularly after someone agrees to let bygones be bygones and apologizes for any ill feelings. You both must be very proud.

Okay, I was being a dick, that's true, but this:

and as they evolved they continued to procreate with "lower" species until enough had evolved to produce a stable gene pool. Then all the "in-between" species just *poof*...disappeared!

indicates that you don't actually understand the mechanisms you purport to object to.

Speciation doesn't work this way. "In-between species" don't exist in a speciation event. Over hundreds or thousands of generations, a subpopulation of an existing species becomes reproductively isolated, either physically, socially, or geographically, and eventually due to genetic drift, mutation, and/or selective adaptation operating differently between the parent population and the daughter population, genetic barriers gradually harden over a great many generations. At a certain point, most or all individuals in the daughter population cannot interbreed with the parent population, and all further genetic change occurs within the daughter species. That's speciation.

The "in-between" species you refer to are human precursors, which could interbreed with the existing parent and first generations of the daughter population. But, due to the reproductive barriers described above, further adaptation generally occurred within h. sapiens sapiens. Of course, even then there was no hermetic seal on h. sapiens, since h. sapiens neanderthaensis/h. neanderthalensis did interbreed with us, contributing a significant amount of genetic material to non-Africans. (I wonder if 1940s-style Darwin-racists would find it ironic that whites are the most "impure" race.)

 

[estar9821]

That doesn't exclude utilitarian cruelty at all. Such comforts would come cheap for the Talosians, and they would impose their own standards of happiness on their captives, much like we do for the lower lifeforms we enslave for our purposes.


Timo Saloniemi

I agree completely. Compare the Talosians to us, and Pike and Vina to dogs. We try to make them happy, but they're still owned by us, and not free. We use them for entertainment purposes and for comfort, which is similar to how the Talosians use humans. I apologize to dog-lovers out there for that statement, but it's true.

Timo, are you Finnish? The name definitely looks Finnish. I have some Finnish ancestry. I love the country, it's beautiful.

Okay, Myasishchev, StarryEyed, boobatuba, and anyone else continuing the debate: as I said before, this is not the place for it, and I will report future comments on it. Perhaps you can make a thread for this purpose in the Miscellaneous section, but don't discuss it here. It does have some relevance to the question of whether Vina is fertile, but I think that that topic is one that gets out of hand quickly. So please save it for somewhere else. Thank you.

 

[maryh]

Do you think some Humans would willingly submit to the so-called captivity if they were given some great fantasies in exchange for a little labor? I don't think that ALL humans "show a unique hatred of captivity. Even when it's pleasant and benevolent, you prefer death. This makes you too violent and dangerous a species for our needs." Lots of ideology, particularly political, shows the opposite LOL!!

 

[Captrek]

Do you think some Humans would willingly submit to the so-called captivity if they were given some great fantasies in exchange for a little labor?

In the end, Pike did, and so did Vina, because their physical disabilities and deformities made reality too unpleasant. Surely they’re not the only two people in the galaxy with such problems.

If the Talosians had approached me with such an offer about 10 years ago, I would certainly have accepted. Certain miracles (they feel like miracles to me, don’t take it as a theological assertion) turned my life around and now I like my life too much to give it up, so the Talosians blew their chance with me by waiting too long.

 

[StarryEyed]

Do you think some Humans would willingly submit to the so-called captivity if they were given some great fantasies in exchange for a little labor?

I have to say, "yes." They might be few and far between though considering what is available to 23rd century Humans. They're also unlikely to have the resources to secure travel to a planet the Federation has quarantined.

 

[Captrek]

They're also unlikely to have the resources to secure travel to a planet the Federation has quarantined.

Securing travel isn’t the greatest barrier. The biggest barrier is that they won’t even try to go to Talos to trade labor for fantastic illusions because they don’t know about the possibility. Other than the Enterprise crew who visited the planet, a few of the top brass at Starfleet, and maybe the President of the Federation, very few people know about the Talosians and their powers. It’s the best kept secret in the galaxy.

I wonder if the effects of the galactic barrier are a similarly guarded secret.

 

[Timo]

...And the ease by which anybody in possession of a warp-driven vessel can implement time travel.

These are all very dangerous things, because there is no real chance of controlling people's behavior through deterrence. Once somebody gets Talosian powers, or goes through the Barrier and lives, or changes the past, he or she is immune to all punitive measures, and above all authority. This sets these apart from all other things one might want to define as crimes, because other crimes carry consequences. (Even suicide could be considered a punishable crime in the 24th century, and far more effectively so than in past centuries: with enough effort, the criminal could no doubt be resurrected, at least sufficiently so to be able to experience the punishments subsequently imposed on him or her.)

It's difficult to see what authority would NOT criminalize seeking the ability to usurp authority. In these cases, though, the authorities have to pussyfoot around the offenders because of the high probability that an offended offender would be successful in the usurping! The only realistic possibility of containing the offenses would seem to be absolute secrecy, up to and including self-secrecy measures such as destroying all physical and mental evidence in possession of the authorities themselves.

Timo, are you Finnish? The name definitely looks Finnish.

Yuppeti-yup. Although in certain circles I'm identified as being from Iceland, due to an innocent little mistake. Never been to the island.

I have some Finnish ancestry. I love the country, it's beautiful.

In places, yes... And it's home to Star Wreck. A bit like Australia of the North, with open spaces and weirdos in abundance, and with most of the populance having a good command of something that vaguely resembles English.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[maryh]

If the Talosians had approached me with such an offer about 10 years ago, I would certainly have accepted. Certain miracles (they feel like miracles to me, don’t take it as a theological assertion) turned my life around and now I like my life too much to give it up, so the Talosians blew their chance with me by waiting too long.

I find your post a little inspirational!! It seems to me many people prefer fantasy to reality. Look at the high relapse rates of drug addicts. Lots of people want someone else to take care of them - or a government. Do some of us Trekkies know of a Trekkie who has passed the bounds of normalacy, who see Trek as an means of escaping reality instead of as a means of entertainment?

At the end of "This Side of Paradise" Kirk says : Maybe we weren't meant for paradise. Maybe we were meant to fight our way through. Struggle, claw our way up, scratch for every inch of the way. Maybe we can't stroll to the music of the lute. We must march to the sound of drums.

I think this is only true for some people. Star Fleet personnel would likely be adventurous, energetic, and driven.... what about the general population? I think many people in the future will still prefer fantasy to reality. The Talosians just didn't ask the right people.

It sounds like you turned your back on dependence and fantasy, something I haven't seen happen a lot.

 

[Captrek]

It sounds like you turned your back on dependence and fantasy, something I haven't seen happen a lot.

I wish I could say it was by my own strength of character that I turned my back on fantasy and built a better reality, but that’s not the case. Life was miserable and hopeless and I was helpless to do anything about it. Then circumstances changed in a way I never thought possible, due to a series of such unbelievably lucky breaks that it’s tempting to look to theology for an explanation. They changed reality from unbearable to bearable, and eventually to pretty darn good, and I expect things to continue to improve. Now it’s my responsibility to keep working hard to make things keep improving, because, unlike 10 years ago, I have some control over my life.

 

[scotpens]

. . . Do some of us Trekkies know of a Trekkie who has passed the bounds of normalacy, who see Trek as an means of escaping reality instead of as a means of entertainment?

You know what they say: Reality is a crutch for people who can't handle science fiction!

 

[Myasishchev]

...And the ease by which anybody in possession of a warp-driven vessel can implement time travel.

These are all very dangerous things, because there is no real chance of controlling people's behavior through deterrence. Once somebody gets Talosian powers, or goes through the Barrier and lives, or changes the past, he or she is immune to all punitive measures, and above all authority. This sets these apart from all other things one might want to define as crimes, because other crimes carry consequences. (Even suicide could be considered a punishable crime in the 24th century, and far more effectively so than in past centuries: with enough effort, the criminal could no doubt be resurrected, at least sufficiently so to be able to experience the punishments subsequently imposed on him or her.)

Unless you've either 1)accidentally replicated an idea already in existence or 2)learned of this idea elsewhere, I hope you realize you've hit on a truly great sci-fi high concept here.

 

[Timo]

What, this improvement on burying the culprit in unholy soil? Done to death, I think - Stargate got great mileage of resurrecting people who would have been happier dead, then subjecting them to all sorts of painful special effects (in both senses of the expression).

And Larry Niven loved to dwell on the issue of unpunishable crimes and criminals. Plus don't we have enough timecop shows out there already?

Timo Saloniemi