Was Vina Fertile?

[Timo]

It does sound to me that the Talosians would be such complete klutzes in both biology and technology, yet also such experienced and hardened illusionists, that everything they showed and told about Vina was a lie. Perhaps they didn't even have Vina? Perhaps the woman died in the crash, along with all the others, but the illusion of her was their best chance of wooing one of the Enterprise's all-male landing party?

When they got their hands on Pike, they allowed the remaining crew to keep on attempting a recovery - which eventually provided them with a couple of females as well. And that's when they decided they had gotten everything they wanted, and began destroying the starship. They didn't settle for just Pike and Vina, perhaps because there was no Vina, but they did settle for Pike and two women.

But then Number One pulled the suicide card. Probably the Talosians could simply have thrown another illusion at her and stopped the suicide, but at the same time the results on their piracy of Enterprise databanks arrived. So they decided to cut their losses, and to keep only Pike (programming him so that he'd return to them eventually)... And now they could continue and try and grab a human female. Of course, they again had nothing but a cripple - but at least this time it was a flesh-and-blood cripple.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

Oh boy, the old creation vs. evolution debate...again!

Yeah, it's much more believable that human beings gradually evolved from apes into what we are today...and as they evolved they continued to procreate with "lower" species until enough had evolved to produce a stable gene pool. Then all the "in-between" species just *poof*...disappeared!

That's much more believable than Adam & Eve. Thanks.

Good grief, you mean you're serious? That's just very, very sad. I'll give you this link, in the vain hope that you'll read it and learn something:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13620-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions.html

 

[boobatuba]

“. . . human beings gradually evolved from apes”?
“. . . “continued to procreate with ‘lower’ species”?

Statements like that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how evolution works. But that's a subject for another thread in another forum.

Good grief, you mean you're serious? That's just very, very sad. I'll give you this link, in the vain hope that you'll read it and learn something:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13620-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions.html

Yes, I was serious. Some people don't believe the theory of evolution is correct. It doesn't make them stupid, "sad," or any less intellectual than those that do agree with evolution. Unfortunately, the typical reaction is seen above...denigration of the creationist's intelligence. If you disagree, fine...but don't call me "sad" or imply that I'm somehow unable to grasp your highly intellectual theories because I believe differently.

I read your link and followed a great many of the links in the article. It doesn't change my opinion in the slightest. Nor do I believe that it proves anything. In the spirit of open minds, I'll present you with a link of my own that I hope you will read and evaluate on its own merits:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v13/i2/human_fossils.asp

I'll leave the debate for now with an observation...evolution theory frequently uses an illustration such as the following (from your link) to show the development of man from ape:

If this was truly the process, where are the fossil records of those "in-between" species?

At any rate, my original point really doesn't rely on evolution theory or creationism. At some point in history, there were no humans on Earth. If that is true (and it must be), then logically it follows that at some point there were only two human beings on Earth. Somehow, that "limited gene pool" was able to populate the Earth with the diversity of humans that exist today. The same process can be applied to any species...there must be an origin in history somewhere.

 

[Mytran]

We actually have surprisingly few fossils from history from any species. 99.9% of everything that dies leaves no record at all.

Remember that we are dealing with a 15 million year timespan here just to go back to the first great apes. We're lucky to have the few specimens of proto-humans that we do!



And that picture is something drawn up by the Victorians isn't it? Not exactly cutting edge science...

 

[boobatuba]

We actually have surprisingly few fossils from history from any species. 99.9% of everything that dies leaves no record at all.

Remember that we are dealing with a 15 million year timespan here just to go back to the first great apes. We're lucky to have the few specimens of proto-humans that we do!

Good points, rooted in logical thought. I agree totally and acknowledge that it would be a much easier issue to resolve if there were more evidence available for research. But that's also what makes debate about the issue interesting (assuming, of course, that parties can keep the debate civil).

And that picture is something drawn up by the Victorians isn't it? Not exactly cutting edge science...

That picture is from the website link provided to me. I used it since it is an illustration of how at least one organization (New Scientist) believes the transition occurred. I could have found one much more drastic...all five creatures in this picture are bi-pedal. That, in my experience of seeing such illustrations, is unusual...generally the first image is walking on all fours.

 

[scotpens]

May I suggest we get back on topic and leave the evolution/creation thing for another discussion, before the mods lock this thread?

It does sound to me that the Talosians would be such complete klutzes in both biology and technology, yet also such experienced and hardened illusionists, that everything they showed and told about Vina was a lie. Perhaps they didn't even have Vina? Perhaps the woman died in the crash, along with all the others, but the illusion of her was their best chance of wooing one of the Enterprise's all-male landing party?

When they got their hands on Pike, they allowed the remaining crew to keep on attempting a recovery - which eventually provided them with a couple of females as well. And that's when they decided they had gotten everything they wanted, and began destroying the starship. . .

But then Number One pulled the suicide card. Probably the Talosians could simply have thrown another illusion at her and stopped the suicide, but at the same time the results on their piracy of Enterprise databanks arrived. So they decided to cut their losses, and to keep only Pike (programming him so that he'd return to them eventually)... And now they could continue and try and grab a human female. Of course, they again had nothing but a cripple - but at least this time it was a flesh-and-blood cripple.

Well, that's an interesting spin on the story, but completely contrary to G.R.'s intent.

First, there's no indication that the Talosians intended to destroy the Enterprise. They merely scanned its memory banks for information. And in what way could Pike have been "programmed" to return to the planet? By post-hypnotic suggestion? If that was the case, why wait 13 years?

In the extended episode, it's clear that returning Pike to Talos IV was entirely Spock's idea. Indeed, the crippled Pike kept flashing "no" when he realized what Spock was up to.

Plot hole: Why did the Talosians wait so long before scanning the Enterprise's memory banks? Why didn't they learn as much as they could about human history and culture as soon as they had Pike in captivity?

And, in the two-part version, Commodore Mendez says "There's been subspace chatter about it (Pike's accident) for months." Obviously Spock has heard the news. So how come Kirk and McCoy are apparently the only people in Starfleet who don't know about it?

 

[Ronald Held]

Pike meant more to Spock and he actively followed Pike's career?

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

And that picture is something drawn up by the Victorians isn't it? Not exactly cutting edge science...

That picture is from the website link provided to me. I used it since it is an illustration of how at least one organization (New Scientist) believes the transition occurred

Pike never left Talos, his escape and return as a burned out cripple were an illusion created by the Talosians to leave him more amenable to captivity.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Kirk and McCoy were not part of Pike's Spacebook group.

 

[T'Girl]

I somewhere got the idea that the Talosians contacted Mr. Spock in some fashion prior to his kidnapping Pike.

 

[estar9821]

Scotpens, the Talosian threatened to destroy the Enterprise if Pike didn't release him. However, the next comment Pike made was something along the lines of, "I'm willing to bet you are to advanced to kill without reason." and didn't release the Talosian. The ship was never destroyed, so I suppose they were never actually going to kill the crew, though they were capable of it.

Also, the scanning of the data banks was delayed because the information storage messages were "primitive." If it took them a long time, it can be presumed they began at first contact with the Enterprise.

I was dissapointed by the Menagerie. I watched it right after watching "The Cage" and felt it was way too repetitive. However, for viewers in the 60s who hadn't seen the pilot, it would have been marvelous.

I agree with Scotpens on stopping the evolution/creation debate. I could argue it all day, but here is not the place.

 

[maryh]

I think all of you are forgetting...it somehow worked on Earth, once.

I am not reviving the creation vs evolution debate but, the Talosians were not deities. Creationism assumes some kind of divine intervention which is not present in this episode. When humans interbreed siblings we know that they have lots of genetic problems which I assume would get worse with each subszequent generation. Unless the Talosians were divine, then I assume their desire to create a race of humans from breeding just 2 of them, was destined for failure. Maybe God can do it but, we can't assume the Talosians can.

 

[boobatuba]

I am not reviving the creation vs evolution debate but, the Talosians were not deities. Creationism assumes some kind of divine intervention which is not present in this episode. When humans interbreed siblings we know that they have lots of genetic problems which I assume would get worse with each subszequent generation. Unless the Talosians were divine, then I assume their desire to create a race of humans from breeding just 2 of them, was destined for failure. Maybe God can do it but, we can't assume the Talosians can.

Now THAT is an exceptional point that I agree 100% with. Very logical.

I, too, agree that this isn't the place for a evolution vs. creation debate and apologize for any ill feelings from earlier posts.

 

[Myasishchev]

“. . . human beings gradually evolved from apes”?
“. . . “continued to procreate with ‘lower’ species”?

Statements like that demonstrate a complete lack of understanding of how evolution works. But that's a subject for another thread in another forum.

Good grief, you mean you're serious? That's just very, very sad. I'll give you this link, in the vain hope that you'll read it and learn something:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13620-evolution-24-myths-and-misconceptions.html

Yes, I was serious. Some people don't believe the theory of evolution is correct. It doesn't make them stupid, "sad," or any less intellectual than those that do agree with evolution.

You know, I had a whole thing written up, but this is pretty much the understanding of biology one could expect from someone whose closest exposure to it has been Star Trek.

 

[StarryEyed]

I am not reviving the creation vs evolution debate but, the Talosians were not deities. Creationism assumes some kind of divine intervention which is not present in this episode. When humans interbreed siblings we know that they have lots of genetic problems which I assume would get worse with each subszequent generation. Unless the Talosians were divine, then I assume their desire to create a race of humans from breeding just 2 of them, was destined for failure. Maybe God can do it but, we can't assume the Talosians can.

Now THAT is an exceptional point that I agree 100% with. Very logical.

I, too, agree that this isn't the place for a evolution vs. creation debate and apologize for any ill feelings from earlier posts.

There isn't a place for an evolution vs. creation debate ANYWHERE. Go back 75 years and maybe there would still be some room for such discussion but not in 2010. The matter was settled a long time ago. Creationism lost.

 

[boobatuba]

You know, I had a whole thing written up, but this is pretty much the understanding of biology one could expect from someone whose closest exposure to it has been Star Trek.

There isn't a place for an evolution vs. creation debate ANYWHERE. Go back 75 years and maybe there would still be some room for such discussion but not in 2010. The matter was settled a long time ago. Creationism lost.

How incredibly insulting. Particularly after someone agrees to let bygones be bygones and apologizes for any ill feelings. You both must be very proud.

 

[Captrek]

You know, I had a whole thing written up, but this is pretty much the understanding of biology one could expect from someone whose closest exposure to it has been Star Trek.

There isn't a place for an evolution vs. creation debate ANYWHERE. Go back 75 years and maybe there would still be some room for such discussion but not in 2010. The matter was settled a long time ago. Creationism lost.

How incredibly insulting. Particularly after someone agrees to let bygones be bygones and apologizes for any ill feelings. You both must be very proud.

Boobatube — you’re wrong. That’s all there is to it. The creation myth in the Bible is just that, a myth. I’m sorry you feel insulted by that, but we’re not going to pretend that Creationism is a valid alternative explanation just to spare your feelings.

 

[boobatuba]

Boobatube — you’re wrong. That’s all there is to it. The creation myth in the Bible is just that, a myth. I’m sorry you feel insulted by that, but we’re not going to pretend that Creationism is a valid alternative explanation just to spare your feelings.

I'm wrong. Because you say so. Yeah, that's a very persuasive argument.

Here's a little nugget no one has picked up yet...you don't have to be a religious zealot to believe there is more to human origins than evolution theory. It's not as black and white an issue as many on here seem to think. So just toss aside your images of me as some kind of religious kook...it's not the case. It's entirely possible to believe in creationism (or to be skeptical of evolution theory) without being religious...surprise!

That's the end of this from me. I am sick and tired of being called intellectually lazy because I don't agree with some of you...I have studied this issue for decades and have a masters degree...I know how to research and think for myself. I'm clearly not going to change any minds and you aren't going to change mine without presenting evidence (which we have agreed this isn't the place for). Can we please just leave it at that?

 

[StarryEyed]

Boobatube — you’re wrong. That’s all there is to it. The creation myth in the Bible is just that, a myth. I’m sorry you feel insulted by that, but we’re not going to pretend that Creationism is a valid alternative explanation just to spare your feelings.

I'm wrong. Because you say so. Yeah, that's a very persuasive argument.

It's not because anyone here says so; it's because virtually all of the world's scientists say so. This issue was debated to death by them back when it really was a contestable issue and long afterward. Now it's over. If you can't accept that, that's your problem.

 

[scotpens]

. . . the scanning of the data banks was delayed because the information storage messages were “primitive.”

Actually the word the Talosian used was “crude,” but close enough for horseshoes, as they say.

If it took them a long time, it can be presumed they began at first contact with the Enterprise.

That WOULD be a sensible explanation. BUT . . .

After Number One and the yeoman beam down without the rest of the landing party, Spock realizes that the ship's safety is now the highest priority and gives orders to leave the planet. At that point, the Talosians disable the ship (presumably with some kind of projected force field). Only then do they begin scanning the ship's computer banks. The process apparently takes a matter of minutes at most.

(This is from the original pilot. These scenes were edited out of the two-part episode.)